Secularism/Modernity

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Post by John-Boy » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:14 am

PipeAndPint wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Odysseus wrote:Jflo,

Let's try an experiment: What is the final destination of the believer?
Superintendent of Sunday School?
Super-Duperintendent of Sunday School?
:lol: You're so much more spiritual.
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Post by PipeAndPint » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:55 am

John-Boy wrote:
PipeAndPint wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Odysseus wrote:Jflo,

Let's try an experiment: What is the final destination of the believer?
Superintendent of Sunday School?
Super-Duperintendent of Sunday School?
:lol: You're so much more spiritual.
So much more.. something!
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Post by adauria » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:29 pm

I don't use the term seeker sensitive to single out a style of music or using technology, etc. It is a term I apply (generally perjoratively) to the content of a message I hear being preached by some leaders and members within the body.

It's actually more what I DON'T hear being preached within the content of some messages. It's a watering down of the gospel and an avoidance of the Truth (and all its implications) for the purpose of attracting people to join the Church without fulling knowing what it means and without counting any costs.

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Post by John-Boy » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:57 pm

adauria wrote:I don't use the term seeker sensitive to single out a style of music or using technology, etc. It is a term I apply (generally perjoratively) to the content of a message I hear being preached by some leaders and members within the body.

It's actually more what I DON'T hear being preached within the content of some messages. It's a watering down of the gospel and an avoidance of the Truth (and all its implications) for the purpose of attracting people to join the Church without fulling knowing what it means and without counting any costs.

-Andrew
I went to a church for a while that was big on being "seeker sensitive" and not offending anyone, etc. And for me it seemed like it was exactly what you were saying. They would skip certain passages - even when working through a book - that might be controversial. There were subjects that were never addressed, etc. They claimed to model themselves after Willow Creek. So I was a big anti-Willow Creek guy based on what I has seen at the church I was going to. Then when I had the opportunity to go to a service at Willow Creek I kept hearing things like "everyone is going to die..." blah blah - stuff said in a way that you never would have heard it at the church I was going to. So at least in the couple messages I heard there I thought - this isn't anything like the church I go to. They're "seeker sensitive" in a lot of things they do - but it sure sounded like a clear gospel message to me.
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Post by Skip » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:49 pm

Jflo wrote:Again, I merely wanted to get a thread going to ruffle a few feathers, get us thinking about the state that the church is in.
Hmmm. Well, now that the feathers are ruffled (theoretically) and the thinking has commenced, perhaps you'd like to tighten up your definitions before somebody decides to play the Great Knock to your young Lewis. The quote you’ve provided sounds remarkably like what one might find in the works of Schaeffer – so what you’re talking about is far from a new concept or concern. And one of Schaeffer's major points is the modern distinction between the definition of a word and the connotation thereof. You're throwing out phrases and terms to represent your thoughts prior to assuring their equivalent interpretation at the other end, or using your own definitions behind terms and phrases that already have established meanings. Until you tighten things up, your communication has already fallen prey to the postmodernism and secularism against which you supposedly strive.

You’ve used the term “seeker-sensitive” in a context similar to that normally used to hammer on the mega-churches – Willow Creek being a prime example. Are you against individual services that are “seeker-sensitive”, or against churches whose services never go beyond to the deeper truths? Isn’t the last one a problem with individual churches rather than the Church as a whole? Could you actually have problems with the former?

You seem to equate both “seeker-sensitive” and “contemporary” services with “performance-based” worship. What do you mean? ”? Do you think that all “seeker-sensitive” and “contemporary” services are automatically “performance-based”? Are all “performance-based” worship services either “seeker-sensitive” or “contemporary” or both? How do you discern the difference between “performance-based” worship and “not performance-based” worship? Is “performance” a function of attitude of whoever’s on the stage, the number of instruments on the stage, or even the TYPE of instrument on the stage? When does the person on the stage or in front stop being a “leader” and become a “performer”?
Jflo wrote:“Our Worship Rocks”. That is what I am referencing.
What’s your point? How is “Our Worship Rocks” any less Christ-centered than “Our Worship is Based on 17th Century Four-Part Harmonies That You Can’t Sing Because Music Is No Longer Taught in All Schools”? Is your issue the fact that the music style is even (apparently) mentioned in external communication regarding a worship service? What communication IS appropriate with regards to the worship service that at LEAST begins when I enter the parking lot and stops when I exit, but hopefully last throughout every hour of every day of the rest of my life? Is “rock” music modern, therefore bad? When does music stop being “modern”? Is it based upon style or year that the copyright was granted? Explain your reference.
Jflo wrote:This is what I fear is the plight of the western church. In other words, I believe the church is in need of reformation.
Reform FROM what TO what? There are several leaders of the diverse and amorphous Emerging Church who say we need to reform, but I hardly expect that your ideas on reformation match theirs. The United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Presbyterian Church USA, and Episcopal Church USA have all decided that reformations are necessary and they’re reforming themselves right into the postmodern and secular – apparently quite independent of the type of worship styles they use. Again, what do you mean?
Last edited by Skip on Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Skip » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:48 pm

An excerpt from a recent sermon, graciously provided by the pastor who gave it...
...the good pastor wrote:"In today’s society and within the church (the universal church), we have equated personal opinion with divinely inspired truth. This has created what some have called “worship wars” – and in modern times the argument has been based on whether we should have music during our congregational worship time that is similar to current cultural trends. Listen as I read a quote by an American pastor regarding new trends in worship music:

“There are several reasons for opposing it. One, it's too new. Two, it's often worldly….The new Christian music is not as pleasant as the more established style. Because there are so many new songs you can't learn them all. It puts too much emphasis on instrumental music rather than godly lyrics. This new music creates disturbances making people act indecently and disorderly. The preceding generation got along without it. It's a money-making scheme, and some of these new music upstarts are lewd and loose."

Perhaps some of you may have felt this way about something new. As Pastor Don asks us to do last week, we need to be flexible and open to change. But I think it would surprise you that the quote I read was not written by a pastor in the 21st century, but the 18th century. He wrote it as an attack against the hymn writer Isaac Watts – who became one of the greatest hymn writers of all time, writing hymns such as “When I Survey The Wondrous Cross”, and “Our God, Our Help in Ages Past”.
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Post by Odysseus » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:02 pm

Skip wrote:An excerpt from a recent sermon, graciously provided by the pastor who gave it...
...the good pastor wrote:"In today’s society and within the church (the universal church), we have equated personal opinion with divinely inspired truth. This has created what some have called “worship wars” – and in modern times the argument has been based on whether we should have music during our congregational worship time that is similar to current cultural trends. Listen as I read a quote by an American pastor regarding new trends in worship music:

“There are several reasons for opposing it. One, it's too new. Two, it's often worldly….The new Christian music is not as pleasant as the more established style. Because there are so many new songs you can't learn them all. It puts too much emphasis on instrumental music rather than godly lyrics. This new music creates disturbances making people act indecently and disorderly. The preceding generation got along without it. It's a money-making scheme, and some of these new music upstarts are lewd and loose."

Perhaps some of you may have felt this way about something new. As Pastor Don asks us to do last week, we need to be flexible and open to change. But I think it would surprise you that the quote I read was not written by a pastor in the 21st century, but the 18th century. He wrote it as an attack against the hymn writer Isaac Watts – who became one of the greatest hymn writers of all time, writing hymns such as “When I Survey The Wondrous Cross”, and “Our God, Our Help in Ages Past”.
Excellent point, skip! I was rethinking this whole thing and being an Episcopalian, I could make the same claims regarding Reformed churches. That is, since their worship is not liturgical, it is a compromise with the world.

Furthermore, and I am not sure I really want to ask this question but, are we certain we actually want reformation? The last one led to the multi-divided body of Christ! It is because of the Reformation that we are even discussing this.

What I think would be time better spent is to find ways of uniting the body of Christ. As it stands now, to the 'principalities and powers' (and I'm not just talking about the ones in the spiritual realm), we are a divided group that can be marginalized, written off, or ignored. The church is the largest organization in the whole world! Can we imagine what we could do if we were a united church? Can you image what things we could accomplish for the good of all creation? It is mind boggling but I believe that is the will of our God and King.
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Post by Jflo » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:25 pm

The spirit of the discussion is headed in another direction to me. when I wrote the first post, I didn't realize every word would be picked apart and that I would have to defend myself. I will leave it up to you to infere what you think.

I will respectfully leave this discussion.

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Post by Skip » Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:20 pm

Methinks some feathers have been ruffled.

Jflo, I would LOVE to have a discussion, but I'm still not certain what it is you were trying to discuss! Nobody can ask you to DEFEND anything because by the questions we've asked it should be clear that some of us still don't even UNDERSTAND your views.

If you wish to let this rest, then may peace be upon it. But if you truly wish to discuss the impact of modernism, postmodernism and secular influences upon specific churches and the catholic Church in general, then we MUST have a consistent set of definitions among us.

Peace.

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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by UncleBob » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 am

I was reading old theology posts today and discovered an unsettling truth: Skip used to engage in theology threads!

You know, before numbnuts beat it out of him.

That is all.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by Skip » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:34 pm

Were these the Good Old Days?
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by Jocose » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:02 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 am
I was reading old theology posts today ...
You're a brave soul, UB.

Did you come across any Taco award winners?
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by UncleBob » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:06 pm

Jocose wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:02 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 am
I was reading old theology posts today ...
You're a brave soul, UB.

Did you come across any Taco award winners?
LOL!

I did. Good times.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by elimtaft » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:21 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 am
I was reading old theology posts today...
I apologize for some of the things from me that you may have read there.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by Joshoowah » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:18 am

Modernity, psh... Let's talk about Postmodernity.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by Sir Moose » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:44 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:18 am
Modernity, psh... Let's talk about Postmodernity.
Here are some pretty modern posts...

Image

Image

Image

Image

I don't think they are seeker-friendly, though.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by StoicDetective » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am

hhmmm...
I am a layman arm chair theologian. Disregard the following if yall think the following is to far off the topic.

1) can the 'faith' of an individual christian be separated from the church (institution/administration meaning, not 'body of believers')?
i.e. It could be defined that CPS is a loose knit body of believers, but not a church in the institutional form. If an outsider/non-believer were to peal back the layers what would they find and would it positively influence a positive decision toward the Christian faith?

2) how does one 'church/denomination', in love correct/redirect another that has gone "off the rails or become occult-ish'' ... and without causing a public fight that will adversely affect the non-believer/possible future believer.
i.e. When one denomination will marry a homosexual couple and another will not. <- there's one secularism example

3) music is music, If I remember correctly the good book says something about making a joyful noise ... I'm sure that if my boots ever landed in Africa the cultural influences on worship music would make me raise and eyebrow (maybe both), just as much as a person adding hard rock/metal guitar rifts to worship music here stateside. Neither appeal to me in a worship setting, but I am going to ask, "Who are they worshiping and what is the intent?" But, I don't sit in the judgement seat, so ultimately I'll say this is God's call to make.

Again, I'll digress from the Theology forums and go back to the Tobacco threads.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by Skip » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:04 pm

Beware the zombie threads.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by elimtaft » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:12 pm

StoicDetective wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am
hhmmm...
Hi and welcome! --since you joined so recently.
StoicDetective wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am
I am a layman arm chair theologian.
By which you mean you have a job and in your spare time like to think on the things of God? Again, I say "Welcome."
StoicDetective wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am
Disregard the following if yall think the following is to far off the topic.
I don't know if it's off topic in this thread. I'll defer to somoene more qualified to make the assessment.
StoicDetective wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am

1) can the 'faith' of an individual christian be separated from the church (institution/administration meaning, not 'body of believers')?
i.e. It could be defined that CPS is a loose knit body of believers, but not a church in the institutional form. If an outsider/non-believer were to peal back the layers what would they find and would it positively influence a positive decision toward the Christian faith?
CPS is not a church. Is that what you're asking? It's also not THE church. But its members are members of THE church. Some of us have different views about what THE church is. I'd say its the body of Christ, comprised of "as many as received Him", to whome "He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
StoicDetective wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am

2) how does one 'church/denomination', in love correct/redirect another that has gone "off the rails or become occult-ish'' ... and without causing a public fight that will adversely affect the non-believer/possible future believer.
i.e. When one denomination will marry a homosexual couple and another will not. <- there's one secularism example
Speaking at the denominational level, it would seem wise to me to have the leaders the respective denominations meet and try to come to an agreement over the issues that separate them. But this is a very hard and complicated issue. I don't have a good answer. I will say that over the last few years I've been thinking a lot more about how the church is the Bride of Christ, and how He will "present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless." (Ephesians 5:27). I'm praying that the various denominations would grow closer to Christ, and toward one another, and that over time we can begin to resolve these issues until we have again become one body and Christ can return to receive His spotless bride. In my own little way, the way I'm helping toward this end is that I have befriends a few pastors from different denominations in my area. We used to meet weekly (we've recently stopped because we all got too busy). We would take turns presenting a topic that we would all discuss. And we would pray for one another. We became close. And although I'm not Anglican, the Anglican priest part of this group I'd count among my closest friends. I still meet with a couple of them outside the regular schedule. Coffee or dinner or a pipe meetup. We discuss our differences, and it can get heated, but it's also in the context of love, and we eat together and pray together. I have way too much to say about this, and probably don't have the best answers. But this is my current approach.
StoicDetective wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:25 am
3) music is music, If I remember correctly the good book says something about making a joyful noise ... I'm sure that if my boots ever landed in Africa the cultural influences on worship music would make me raise and eyebrow (maybe both), just as much as a person adding hard rock/metal guitar rifts to worship music here stateside. Neither appeal to me in a worship setting, but I am going to ask, "Who are they worshiping and what is the intent?" But, I don't sit in the judgement seat, so ultimately I'll say this is God's call to make.
I agree that those questions are important. The intent is really important. Because you are right that music styles can change from one place to the next. But I don't consider that to be justification for any kind of music or styles. I don't think cultural changes can justify smog machines, strobe lights, spot lights, make-up and dress teams for the band, etc. I don't think cultural changes are the reason for the western Christian music industry to have such a similar model to the secular music industry, or for the "worship" teams to focus so much on stage presence or working the audience. In worship, the motive really should be to worship God, to point to Christ, to cause the church to think on doctrines that will draw them closer to Christ and not distract them with show, image, etc.
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Re: Secularism/Modernity

Post by Skip » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:46 pm

<rubs hands together and cracks knuckles ominously>
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