I Have Started a Theology Thread

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Post by coco » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:34 pm

Del wrote:
AFRS wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Wait a New York minute, here.
So, how many angels can dance on the head of a New York minute?
Wait.... Do angels dance?
Even more than Baptists
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Post by AFRS » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:36 pm

coco wrote:
Del wrote:
AFRS wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Wait a New York minute, here.
So, how many angels can dance on the head of a New York minute?
Wait.... Do angels dance?
Even more than Baptists
Which is why there are not Baptists in New York minute.

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Re: I Have Started a Theology Thread

Post by SmokinGordon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:41 pm

coco wrote:
Skip wrote:
A_Morley wrote:It appears that I have never done so before and since it appears that one has to be neither sane nor sober to do so I decided to get in on the action.

Any questions?
See what you've started?

Well done.
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Post by SmokinGordon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:43 pm

mont974x4 wrote:The Bible says God has given us everything we need for life and godliness. (2 Peter 1:3). Does that mean it contains all there is to know about God? No. It means it contains all things we need in order to be saved and live in a manner worthy of our calling as His children.

That means that questions remain, and its OK. For example, it does not tell us why people would put salt on celery. Since this has no impact on any aspect of our salvation or sanctification it is OK to not have an answer.
I agree.

But I kind of miss the belly button conversation! :bacon: :bacon:
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Post by mont974x4 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:49 pm

SmokinGordon wrote:
mont974x4 wrote:The Bible says God has given us everything we need for life and godliness. (2 Peter 1:3). Does that mean it contains all there is to know about God? No. It means it contains all things we need in order to be saved and live in a manner worthy of our calling as His children.

That means that questions remain, and its OK. For example, it does not tell us why people would put salt on celery. Since this has no impact on any aspect of our salvation or sanctification it is OK to not have an answer.
I agree.

But I kind of miss the belly button conversation! :bacon: :bacon:
Bacon, dancing or otherwise, does not have belly buttons. That would be hotdogs.
It sounded better when the voices in my head were saying it.

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Post by Del » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:50 pm

Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
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Post by gaining_age » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:07 pm

Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
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Post by Skip » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:13 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
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Post by UncleBob » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:28 pm

Skip wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
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Post by coco » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:31 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Skip wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
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Post by gaining_age » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:32 pm

coco wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Skip wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMuWmU1iNJo
:dance:
Image
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2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
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Post by UncleBob » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:34 pm

gaining_age wrote:
coco wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Skip wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMuWmU1iNJo
:dance:
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOqtvMRo3Cs
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Post by coco » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:54 pm

UncleBob wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
coco wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Skip wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
Del wrote:
Del wrote:
serapion wrote:Mary.
Indeed!


Mary makes our crosses sweet.
Is there anyone here who does not understand this mercy?
yes, of course.
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMuWmU1iNJo
:dance:
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOqtvMRo3Cs
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Post by Rusty » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:57 pm

infidel wrote:
coco wrote:
infidel wrote:I'm with Del on the simplicity thing. People are quick to say that God's X is infinitely more complex than our X (for any value of X), and I can understand why they say this, but it seems to me like it's the exact opposite of what must be, in sort of a Zen way.
So, in what way are our thoughts like God's thoughts? (Presuming of course, that you believe there is some resemblance)
I don't know if there's a resemblance or not. I don't think that our thoughts are just simpler shadows of God's thoughts. And I'm not sure that God "thinks" in any that we understand the word. That sounds a lot like what Rusty has said God should be like. It kind of implies some some infinitely complex "mind" and that just doesn't sound right to me.

Isn't it when we stop thinking that we can hear the still small voice?
That small voice is your neurosis talking to you.

From the statement that Coco introduced above it follows that God must be many many orders of magnitude more complex than the universe at any given instant. Surely this is obvious and it follows from the statement that is in bold.
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Post by coco » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:01 pm

Rusty wrote:
infidel wrote:
coco wrote:
infidel wrote:I'm with Del on the simplicity thing. People are quick to say that God's X is infinitely more complex than our X (for any value of X), and I can understand why they say this, but it seems to me like it's the exact opposite of what must be, in sort of a Zen way.
So, in what way are our thoughts like God's thoughts? (Presuming of course, that you believe there is some resemblance)
I don't know if there's a resemblance or not. I don't think that our thoughts are just simpler shadows of God's thoughts. And I'm not sure that God "thinks" in any that we understand the word. That sounds a lot like what Rusty has said God should be like. It kind of implies some some infinitely complex "mind" and that just doesn't sound right to me.

Isn't it when we stop thinking that we can hear the still small voice?
That small voice is your neurosis talking to you.

From the statement that Coco introduced above it follows that God must be many many orders of magnitude more complex than the universe at any given instant. Surely this is obvious and it follows from the statement that is in bold.
Thank you, Rusty.

Please feel free to explain the isomorphic mapping thing to us. Skip even has popcorn.
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Post by Rusty » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:14 pm

coco wrote:
Rusty wrote:
infidel wrote:
coco wrote:
infidel wrote:I'm with Del on the simplicity thing. People are quick to say that God's X is infinitely more complex than our X (for any value of X), and I can understand why they say this, but it seems to me like it's the exact opposite of what must be, in sort of a Zen way.
So, in what way are our thoughts like God's thoughts? (Presuming of course, that you believe there is some resemblance)
I don't know if there's a resemblance or not. I don't think that our thoughts are just simpler shadows of God's thoughts. And I'm not sure that God "thinks" in any that we understand the word. That sounds a lot like what Rusty has said God should be like. It kind of implies some some infinitely complex "mind" and that just doesn't sound right to me.

Isn't it when we stop thinking that we can hear the still small voice?
That small voice is your neurosis talking to you.

From the statement that Coco introduced above it follows that God must be many many orders of magnitude more complex than the universe at any given instant. Surely this is obvious and it follows from the statement that is in bold.
Thank you, Rusty.

Please feel free to explain the isomorphic mapping thing to us. Skip even has popcorn.
I know almost nothing about the bible. But I know it's very small compared to statement in bold below.
Between what the words of the Bible say, and what abides in the infinite mind of the Creator, there exists an ISOMORPHISM. This is a congruity of form such that what is knowable to us is MAPPABLE to the information that exists in perfection in the mind of God, where there is infinitely more to know and each idea is infinitely more complex than what the Creator has made known to us. As God knows all things, there are no categories, systems of truth, or separable ideas. All things merge into one complete yet personal awareness. Since we finite beings can only know truth in parts, and must relate those parts with one another merging them into manageable ideas, God has made himself known in such a manner to us.
The statement in bold is about perfect knowledge of everything. We don't exhibit perfect knowledge about anything in this sense.

Consider the aggregate of the universe, all of it's parts, and all of their states, all the events, and all configurations over the approx. 13.8 billion years history and the same in the future. Knowing at least that with perfect knowledge places God at a level of discernment that exceeds the complexity of the universe at any instant.

Knowledge means perfect discernment. God must have more capacity to discern each and every piece, event, and configuration over all history than the total number of things that characterize the universe at any given time. The bible cannot be isomorphic to God's mind because we cannot understand that level of complexity. Instead the universe is an approximation to God's complexity.

This is way beyond any laws or science.

Where in the bible does it tell us the proper motion of our solar system with respect to the CBR? It's not in the bible. For perfect knowledge you may assume God knows. We have recently learned this.

A few days ago you folks were discussing the flood and tipping into cosmology and the configuration of our planet, first rains etc. In the bible it is not as we know the world and as God must know it, given perfect knowledge. The challenge with the bible is addressing why it misrepresents simple facts about our world that must also be contrary to God's perfect knowledge. You can suggest that God was selective about the level of detail and importance of the info in the bible maybe erring on the side of making it comprehensible to the people for whom it was written. There is a difference between our world as it is and the way the bible talks about it. The bible cannot be isomorphic to God's knowledge.
Last edited by Rusty on Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by coco » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:21 pm

Rusty wrote:
coco wrote:
Rusty wrote:
infidel wrote:
coco wrote:
infidel wrote:I'm with Del on the simplicity thing. People are quick to say that God's X is infinitely more complex than our X (for any value of X), and I can understand why they say this, but it seems to me like it's the exact opposite of what must be, in sort of a Zen way.
So, in what way are our thoughts like God's thoughts? (Presuming of course, that you believe there is some resemblance)
I don't know if there's a resemblance or not. I don't think that our thoughts are just simpler shadows of God's thoughts. And I'm not sure that God "thinks" in any that we understand the word. That sounds a lot like what Rusty has said God should be like. It kind of implies some some infinitely complex "mind" and that just doesn't sound right to me.

Isn't it when we stop thinking that we can hear the still small voice?
That small voice is your neurosis talking to you.

From the statement that Coco introduced above it follows that God must be many many orders of magnitude more complex than the universe at any given instant. Surely this is obvious and it follows from the statement that is in bold.
Thank you, Rusty.

Please feel free to explain the isomorphic mapping thing to us. Skip even has popcorn.
I know almost nothing about the bible. But I know it's very small compared to statement in bold below.
Between what the words of the Bible say, and what abides in the infinite mind of the Creator, there exists an ISOMORPHISM. This is a congruity of form such that what is knowable to us is MAPPABLE to the information that exists in perfection in the mind of God, where there is infinitely more to know and each idea is infinitely more complex than what the Creator has made known to us. As God knows all things, there are no categories, systems of truth, or separable ideas. All things merge into one complete yet personal awareness. Since we finite beings can only know truth in parts, and must relate those parts with one another merging them into manageable ideas, God has made himself known in such a manner to us.
The statement in bold is about perfect knowledge of everything. We don't exhibit perfect knowledge about anything in this sense.

Consider the aggregate of the universe, all of it's parts, and all of their states, all the events, and all configurations over the approx. 13.8 billion years history and the same in the future. Knowing at least that with perfect knowledge places God at a level of discernment that exceeds the complexity of the universe at any instant.

Knowledge means perfect discernment. God must have more capacity to discern each and every piece, event, and configuration over all history than the total number of things that characterize the universe at any given time. The bible cannot be isomorphic to God's mind because we cannot understand that level of complexity. Instead the universe is an approximation to God's complexity.

This way beyond any laws or science.
Thank you again.
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Post by UncleBob » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:24 pm

Rusty wrote: This way beyond any laws or science.
Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Rusty. Your sad devotion to that ancient Jedi religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you enough clairvoyance to find the rebels' hidden fortress...
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Post by infidel » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:36 pm

Rusty wrote:
infidel wrote:
coco wrote:
infidel wrote:I'm with Del on the simplicity thing. People are quick to say that God's X is infinitely more complex than our X (for any value of X), and I can understand why they say this, but it seems to me like it's the exact opposite of what must be, in sort of a Zen way.
So, in what way are our thoughts like God's thoughts? (Presuming of course, that you believe there is some resemblance)
I don't know if there's a resemblance or not. I don't think that our thoughts are just simpler shadows of God's thoughts. And I'm not sure that God "thinks" in any that we understand the word. That sounds a lot like what Rusty has said God should be like. It kind of implies some some infinitely complex "mind" and that just doesn't sound right to me.

Isn't it when we stop thinking that we can hear the still small voice?
That small voice is your neurosis talking to you.
It's a metaphor :-P
Rusty wrote:From the statement that Coco introduced above it follows that God must be many many orders of magnitude more complex than the universe at any given instant. Surely this is obvious and it follows from the statement that is in bold.
It's not obvious at all to me. God exists in all places and at all times. That is how He has perfect discernment. He's just there, wherever and whenever "there" is, and He's always the same. I don't see how to get from that to "orders of magnitude more complex than the universe".
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Post by Rusty » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:54 pm

infidel wrote:
Rusty wrote:
infidel wrote:
coco wrote:
infidel wrote:I'm with Del on the simplicity thing. People are quick to say that God's X is infinitely more complex than our X (for any value of X), and I can understand why they say this, but it seems to me like it's the exact opposite of what must be, in sort of a Zen way.
So, in what way are our thoughts like God's thoughts? (Presuming of course, that you believe there is some resemblance)
I don't know if there's a resemblance or not. I don't think that our thoughts are just simpler shadows of God's thoughts. And I'm not sure that God "thinks" in any that we understand the word. That sounds a lot like what Rusty has said God should be like. It kind of implies some some infinitely complex "mind" and that just doesn't sound right to me.

Isn't it when we stop thinking that we can hear the still small voice?
That small voice is your neurosis talking to you.
It's a metaphor :-P
Rusty wrote:From the statement that Coco introduced above it follows that God must be many many orders of magnitude more complex than the universe at any given instant. Surely this is obvious and it follows from the statement that is in bold.
It's not obvious at all to me. God exists in all places and at all times. That is how He has perfect discernment. He's just there, wherever and whenever "there" is, and He's always the same. I don't see how to get from that to "orders of magnitude more complex than the universe".
How many particles are in the observable universe?
How many events and configurations of the universe have existed since the beginning and then will exist until the end?

Perfect knowledge requires that God can discern between each and every configuration and event that has ever occurred or will ever occur. He has the capacity to discern them all whether or not the pieces can have any influence or signal between them.

This is well over the complexity of the universe that exists at any time.

I did an order of magnitude calculation on the number of variables that occur over history for a simplified observable universe (diffuse Gas) with 10^80 Hydrogen atoms. I simplified the events down to just thermal emission of photons from matter and the number of configurations exploded to well over 10^100 possibilities and of course it has to be much much higher in reality. This is like representing & modeling live infidel in all his richness, as not only dead infidel, but dead infidel as a diffuse cloud of gas whose only interesting feature is that the molecules emit photons. The rate at which this occurs for the simplified universe is astounding plus of course there is scattering between photons and matter. That wasn't covered. .There can't be perfect discernment without being at least as complex in terms of knowledge elements whether memory or awareness doesn't matter.

It goes back to what you might mean by 'know'. Experiencing it all continually is sufficient to 'grok' but when you face up to the number of things than can be discerned, compared, etc then there is a question. We have no details about how God is realized so when you pose the idea that God experiences everything simultaneously it doesn't change the problem.
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