A Coming Persecution

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A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:57 pm

I may regret this but Del wrote this:
Del wrote:Yes, you are assuring us that we do not need to fear or prepare for a coming persecution.
I am NOT looking for a fight but I am curious about this kind of thinking. Why do any of us feel this way? How do you feel persecuted? Things happen and situations exist that I believe is wrong but why this kind of thinking?

Lay it out for me, please.

To Skip and Pepik: I deeply apologize for any foolishness that this thread may inspire. Lock it, delete it, move it to purgatory as you deem fit. But this kind of thinking is foreign to me and I am trying to grasp it.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by mont974x4 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:06 pm

Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?

It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:13 pm

mont974x4 wrote:Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?

It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
Are you thinking of Matthew 24?

As for the trends in this nation, could you be more specific?
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by coco » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:24 pm

Without going into specifics, I have been fired once (in MS) and my wife has been fired once (in KY) for reporting abuse. In these situations, our "doing what is right" was seen as a betrayal of insiders, and thus worthy of dismissal. Pretty minor persecution, I guess.
Last edited by coco on Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by mont974x4 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:24 pm

UncleBob wrote:
mont974x4 wrote:Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?

It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
Are you thinking of Matthew 24?

As for the trends in this nation, could you be more specific?
Matthew 24 and others. Do a word search for:
trouble
tribulation
trials

How often, in Scriptue, do you see the people of God actually living in peace?

As to our society and its trends:
The push of secular humanism in general. The so-called "tolerance" movement. The making of hate laws. (Like that makes the crime more heinous) The lawsuits against Christian businesses for actually having values and wanting to live them out. The natural evolution of such trends is something akin to thought-crime and people being attacked simply for having a specific set of beliefs. History is ripe with examples of such injustice over race, religion, and color.
It sounded better when the voices in my head were saying it.

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:25 pm

coco wrote:Without going into specifics, I have been fired once (in MS) and my wife has been fired once (in KY) for reporting abuse. In these situations, our "doing what is right" was seen as a betrayal of insiders, and thus worthy of dismissal.
Within a church context or secular?
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by coco » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:27 pm

UncleBob wrote:
coco wrote:Without going into specifics, I have been fired once (in MS) and my wife has been fired once (in KY) for reporting abuse. In these situations, our "doing what is right" was seen as a betrayal of insiders, and thus worthy of dismissal. EDIT: This is minor persecution, and hardly worth mentioning.
Within a church context or secular?
One of each.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:30 pm

mont974x4 wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
mont974x4 wrote:Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?

It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
Are you thinking of Matthew 24?

As for the trends in this nation, could you be more specific?
Matthew 24 and others. Do a word search for:
trouble
tribulation
trials

How often, in Scriptue, do you see the people of God actually living in peace?

As to our society and its trends:
The push of secular humanism in general. The so-called "tolerance" movement. The making of hate laws. (Like that makes the crime more heinous) The lawsuits against Christian businesses for actually having values and wanting to live them out. The natural evolution of such trends is something akin to thought-crime and people being attacked simply for having a specific set of beliefs. History is ripe with examples of such injustice over race, religion, and color.
Do you mean injustice against people of color, religion, and race? Or white folks doing these things? In the USA or world?

I wonder how this kind of thinking gets in the church? Have you ever gone to a gun show? There is a whole industry around the "SHTF" crowd. I even encounter some actively trying to cause the downfall of the USA. Is this similar to your meaning?

EDIT: In the 3000 years (or so) that scripture spans, there is a relatively small number of people represented in the text itself. The world itself seldom knows peace and often it is Christians persecuting other Christians. However, even in Matthew 24 there is a semblance of peace for some. There is little peace in Revelation and Lord knows the Jews in the OT had little peace. Do you think reading these scriptures is giving people a sense of unease?
Last edited by UncleBob on Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by mont974x4 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:33 pm

UncleBob wrote:
mont974x4 wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
mont974x4 wrote:Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?

It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
Are you thinking of Matthew 24?

As for the trends in this nation, could you be more specific?
Matthew 24 and others. Do a word search for:
trouble
tribulation
trials

How often, in Scriptue, do you see the people of God actually living in peace?

As to our society and its trends:
The push of secular humanism in general. The so-called "tolerance" movement. The making of hate laws. (Like that makes the crime more heinous) The lawsuits against Christian businesses for actually having values and wanting to live them out. The natural evolution of such trends is something akin to thought-crime and people being attacked simply for having a specific set of beliefs. History is ripe with examples of such injustice over race, religion, and color.
Do you mean injustice against people of color, religion, and race? Or white folks doing these things? In the USA or world?

I wonder how this kind of thinking gets in the church? Have you ever gone to a gun show? There is a whole industry around the "SHTF" crowd. I even encounter some actively trying to cause the downfall of the USA. Is this similar to you?

I think you know full well what I meant. I could not have been more clear.

How does it get into the church? Again, I think I have been clear. The Bible says to expect, so we expect it.
It sounded better when the voices in my head were saying it.

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:37 pm

mont974x4 wrote: I think you know full well what I meant. I could not have been more clear.

How does it get into the church? Again, I think I have been clear. The Bible says to expect, so we expect it.
Well, no I don't know. I could speculate on several possible meanings but I am trying to understand your, specific thinking. I do not intend to argue with you about your thinking, I am just trying to understand it.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Hovannes » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:05 pm

Persecution? :whistling:
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Onyx » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:12 pm

Since Jesus said that persecution would come, should you try to prevent it?

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by hogleg » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:14 pm

mont974x4 wrote:Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?
Yup.
It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, North Korea, Egypt, China, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Eritrea, Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria, Lybia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Yemen, Oman, Kazakstan, Russia, Turkey, Cuba, others. And American Christians largely haven't a clue.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by coco » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:17 pm

Onyx wrote:Since Jesus said that persecution would come, should you try to prevent it?
By explaining the good news to those who do not yet believe it? Did you have something else in mind?

EDIT: I see now that you asked this in response to what Del said. Still, I would love to hear your answer.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Onyx » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:38 pm

hogleg wrote:
mont974x4 wrote:Jesus Himself told us to expect it. Why, then, would it be odd to expect it?
Yup.
It's occurring in horrid ways in other countries. The further we, as a nation, move away from besic norms and Christian values we can see it coming here as well. There are already lawsuits over people having Bible studies, and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality. I don't know how someone can look at the trends in this nation and think that it is not coming. Now, whether or not I will be around for it is unknown but i have no doubt that it is coming.
Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Iran, North Korea, Egypt, China, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Eritrea, Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria, Lybia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Yemen, Oman, Kazakstan, Russia, Turkey, Cuba, others.

American Christians largely haven't a clue.
Fair enough. In Australia, the most significant and worrying types of persecution and oppression that I see are:
1. The heartbreaking demoralization and criminalization of the indigenous peoples.
2. The heartless imprisonment and social exclusion of immigrants who arrive without proper documentation to seek refuge and in hope of a better, safer, freer life.
3. The poor, the old, the under-educated and under-employed. Although this is really more the result of flawed policy and flawed humanity itself rather than deliberate attempts to persecute... I think.

Christians are not being persecuted here. They might be told to "shut up", or laughed at if they say something which has become morally unacceptable. Here is an example from Aussie TV. You get the distinct impression from the entire audience that, while power once sat with the Christian church, the boot is now on the other foot. But no persecution.
[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfrpdaTnSGw[/BBvideo]
(Apologies for the vulgar comments added by the idiot who posted the video. But the video itself is telling about how the debate works here.)

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Rusty » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:50 pm

mont974x4 wrote:... and preachers being sued and jailed (a few years ago in Canada) for preaching against homosexuality.
What? Show me evidence pls.
Nobody was jailed. We had a human rights commission that was over-zealous. They behaved like thought-police and many Canadians complained. The commission had no power to sentence anyone to jail. The courts reversed some of the commission's rulings. The commission has since been decommissioned. They did cost people accused of hate-crimes legal costs. There were two cases that involved complaints about letters to newspapers. The commission had no right whatsoever to go after individuals on their personal opinions expressed in letters to editors of newspapers. The court ruled that the letters did not qualify as hate crime.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Onyx » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:00 pm

coco wrote:
Onyx wrote:Since Jesus said that persecution would come, should you try to prevent it?
By explaining the good news to those who do not yet believe it? Did you have something else in mind?

EDIT: I see now that you asked this in response to what Del said. Still, I would love to hear your answer.
You seem to be responding as though I'd said "how should you try to prevent it?"... when actually I asked, "should you try to prevent it?" My question was more related to the "fatalism" aspect of prophesy. If Jesus has said persecution will come, then it will come... right? Attempts to prevent it can either be considered futile, OR (as I think mont974x4 is saying) it is still useful to prevent it because that effort can improve freedom in a certain place and time. Persecution will happen, but it doesn't have to happen here and now. I think that's a reasonable view from mont.

To me, the more troubling aspect of this sort of prophesy is that it provides a perverse incentive. If Jesus said persecution will come, then a Bible believer is incentivised to identify pressures against his position as "persecution". It seems to me that many find the idea that they are being persecuted to be self-affirming. I believe people read into it an affirmation that they are truly standing for God. Some actual seem to revel in the idea that culture has turned against them. I think that some positively welcome persecution... especially the imagined kind. (I'm not so sure how they would react to genuine persecution like experienced in some of the countries mont974x4 listed.)

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by coco » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:06 pm

Onyx wrote:
coco wrote:
Onyx wrote:Since Jesus said that persecution would come, should you try to prevent it?
By explaining the good news to those who do not yet believe it? Did you have something else in mind?

EDIT: I see now that you asked this in response to what Del said. Still, I would love to hear your answer.
You seem to be responding as though I'd said "how should you try to prevent it?"... when actually I asked, "should you try to prevent it?" My question was more related to the "fatalism" aspect of prophesy. If Jesus has said persecution will come, then it will come... right? Attempts to prevent it can either be considered futile, OR (as I think mont974x4 is saying) it is still useful to prevent it because that effort can improve freedom in a certain place and time. Persecution will happen, but it doesn't have to happen here and now. I think that's a reasonable view from mont.

To me, the more troubling aspect of this sort of prophesy is that it provides a perverse incentive. If Jesus said persecution will come, then a Bible believer is incentivised to identify pressures against his position as "persecution". It seems to me that many find the idea that they are being persecuted to be self-affirming. I believe people read into it an affirmation that they are truly standing for God. Some actual seem to revel in the idea that culture has turned against them. I think that some positively welcome persecution... especially the imagined kind. (I'm not so sure how they would react to genuine persecution like experienced in some of the countries mont974x4 listed.)
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Onyx » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:09 pm

UncleBob wrote:I may regret this
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:15 pm

I am amazed at how much energy is placed into ignoring the obvious. Just how much evidence does it take before it's finally no longer dismissed? Lots has been provided, little has been absorbed, but we are told the hearts and minds will be hardened and people will no longer recognize the truth, so I really shouldn't be surprised. Just don't be one of those who ask how it happened. When it does you'll know you were part of the problem. Then again, what do I know, except what God has revealed?

I think I'll climb a snow covered mountain, make a snowball, give it a toss and after it turns into a 65 ton ice ball which plows through a town, I'll ask why people are so afraid of snowballs. I mean, it's just a snowball...right?
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