A Coming Persecution

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by hogleg » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:34 am

Hovannes wrote: And it will likely get worse before it gets better (and persecution isn't the sole domain of government, you know!)
Also the persecutions are global, because Satan is.
It will get much worse. This shouldn't be a mystery to anyone calling himself a Christian unless he's a new Christian. GOD, Himself, has told us.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Cliff » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:15 am

Thank you Onyx for you your accurate analysis.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:54 am

Del wrote:
As nearly as I can tell, you have a fairly narrow definition of what constitutes "persecution."
And you have a high degree of faith in the constitutional protections that would prevent that sort of persecution.

I expect that the US Constitution has just one more economic crisis in it. Maybe two. We are not moral or sane enough to govern ourselves anymore.
Yes, this is the kind of thinking I don't get or understand. Why do you feel this way?
Del wrote: Meanwhile, the secular mood in America grows more bold and more angry. Traditional Christian teaching has become "hate speech." Do we need to list all of the instances?
No, you don't need to list them for my part because I am simply trying to understand rather than ask you to prove your position.
Del wrote:There are plenty of examples in the 20th century of seemingly civilized, tolerant Western nations turning into the Reign of Terror.... Calles Mexico, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia & China, the Spanish Civil War.

It is a bit pollyanna-ish to think that it could not happen here.
Here is another area that I don't understand where this comes from. Why do you think that these regimes are similar to the USA?
Del wrote: About 100 years ago, Belloc warned that modernism would grow more hostile and more insane. He predicted that this trend would continue until the word "persecution" was once again active and in common use. I see nothing today that indicates his prophecy was off-track.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:57 am

Hovannes wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Hovannes wrote:per·se·cu·tion
/ˌpərsəˈkyo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: persecution; plural noun: persecutions

hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.
"her family fled religious persecution"

synonyms: oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination, tyranny; More
informalwitch hunt

"victims of religious persecution"

•harassment, hounding, intimidation, bullying
"the persecution she endured at school"

•persistent annoyance or harassment.
"his persecution at the hands of other students"
:whistling:
Have you witnessed this here in the USA? Have you experienced this because you are a Christian?
Yes. And yes.
And it will likely get worse before it gets better (and persecution isn't the sole domain of government, you know!)
Also the persecutions are global, because Satan is.
Christians are certainly persecuted in this world today. Could you share how you were persecuted here in the USA? If not, I understand but it might help me better understand this mindset.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:20 am

Cliff wrote:Thank you Onyx for you your accurate analysis.
That is some excellent analysis but it may not be what those who feel persecuted believe. They have yet to give many specific examples, which is fine for my part. Del said he believed that I have a limited definition of persecution...what is your definition, Del? I am not looking to quibble with it but look from my perspective for one second. Hov was kind enough to post his definition but there are still problems for me to understand it. For example:
hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.
"her family fled religious persecution"
Some may believe that hostility would constitute "disagreement" or "gossip" in some corporate context. Others may consider that minor, Jr. High BS and not persecution. Certainly not being allowed to own a Bible or celebrate The Mass would be hostile, ill-treatment like some Christians suffer through each day--just not in the USA.

I am not quibbling nor am I arguing with anyone about what they believe, here. I am just trying to understand this kind of thinking.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Eric » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:09 am

Hey UB!

I have been persecuted. Compared to what the early church faced or my brothers & sisters in Jesus hating nations face, mine is minimal and I almost feel it ridiculous to call it "persecution", but degrees of pain aside, I have been persecuted. (leaving off the details due to the public)

I have found all such persecutions an excellent opportunity in The Lord to walk "the extra mile" (Matthew 5:41) with my persecutors, taking up my cross daily (Matthew 16:24) and practicing daily forgiveness toward them in Christ Jesus (Matthew 6:15). This is now my daily life.

I simply could not have integrated Christ's teachings into my life, nor learned to rely on and trust God this deeply, without the persecution itself; without it my faith would not be where it is today: "persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;" ( 2 Corinthians 4:9) "For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthians 12:10 ESV)

Jesus told us to expect persecution and God arranges for it in our lives, under his sovereign control, care and protection, to provide a set of circumstances in which we can be conformed to the likeness of Christ.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by serapion » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:07 pm

Onyx wrote:
CaptainBlack wrote:Just curious, in your mind, what line would be crossed in order for you to determine that a group of people is being persecuted? Prison? Death threats? Having one's livelihood taken away?
(I know you asked Rusty, but he's only Canadian. So I'll have a go.) Excellent question. If those skeptical of any real persecution (like myself) are unable to answer a question like this, then it would be a good indication that we'd probably just be shifting the goal posts each time you did produce some evidence that persecution may be happening.

The first sign of persecution would be laws that are different for Christians as opposed to others. For example, if Christians were prohibited from evangelizing, whereas other religions were still permitted to evangelize. Or if Christians had a lower level of property rights than non-Christians... that would be persecution. (Note, this has happened to homosexuals... only a couple of decades ago homosexuals were being arrested and charged with homosexuality, but it has not happened to Christians in the USA so far as I know.)

The second sign of persecution would be a different application of law for Christians. For example, if the police turned a blind-eye to Christians being beaten up and their businesses being robbed, whereas they continued to police the safety of non-Christians. Also, an isolated case of this would not be persecution, that would be an injustice, but if it was systemic and not addressed by the institutions, that would be a persecution. (Note, this has happened to homosexuals, but not to Christians so far as I know.)

Thirdly, if community groups and institutions exclude or degrade Christians (such as not allowing your kids to join the school, or boy-scouts, or refuse to serve Christians in shops, or make Christians sit in a segregated area of the theatre or the back of the bus) then that would be persecution. Again, one case of this happening would not indicate a persecution, but where this discrimination is acceptable to the society, that is persecution. (Note, these types of things have happened to homosexuals, but I think it does not characterize the treatment of Christians in the USA.)

It's equally important to recognize a few things that do NOT constitute persecution:

Since the USA allows for anyone to initiate a lawsuit about anything, then individual lawsuits do not make a persecution. They just make for a few litigious pricks. It is the result of the lawsuits that counts, because they reflect the ruling of law.

Customers boycotting Chick-fillet because they don't like the religion of the owner is not persecution. That's freedom. It's also a pretty nasty side to a fractured society, but it is not persecution. You are also free to not buy from businesses run by people promoting abortion, for example.

Public companies firing execs who speak out on controversial Christian beliefs is not persecution. That's capitalism. The company is acting as they believe to be in the best interests of their shareholders. Specifically, they don't want execs who make customers angry with them. See Chick-fillet above.

People being publicly abused, insulted, told to shut-up after speaking out on Christian beliefs is not persecution. That's rudeness and bullying. Those ugly responses range from free-speech, through to criminally threatening language. However, the same laws to protect you from threatening and abusive language apply to everyone. They are not different for Christians. If the law or the police or the courts allowed bullying and threatening behaviour toward Christians, but did not allow threatening and intimidating behaviour toward non-Christians, then that would be persecution.

Finding that your beliefs are out of fashion such that you are laughed at, mocked, parodied in the media... that is NOT persecution. That's just human social groups. There are norms, and there are taboos. That's just free speech. If you have a fixed set of morals, then I guess you can't expect to always be in-step with a changing society.

If the law says that your catering/engineering/telecommunications business must serve homosexuals equally as it serves other people, that is not persecution. That is the prevention of persecution.

So, many of the items Onxy describes above are actually happening under ISIS and in other Muslim countries. THAT is persecution.
We have simply not experienced this in the US, despite the persecution complex we assume upon ourselves.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:21 pm

serapion wrote:
Onyx wrote:
CaptainBlack wrote:Just curious, in your mind, what line would be crossed in order for you to determine that a group of people is being persecuted? Prison? Death threats? Having one's livelihood taken away?
(I know you asked Rusty, but he's only Canadian. So I'll have a go.) Excellent question. If those skeptical of any real persecution (like myself) are unable to answer a question like this, then it would be a good indication that we'd probably just be shifting the goal posts each time you did produce some evidence that persecution may be happening.

The first sign of persecution would be laws that are different for Christians as opposed to others. For example, if Christians were prohibited from evangelizing, whereas other religions were still permitted to evangelize. Or if Christians had a lower level of property rights than non-Christians... that would be persecution. (Note, this has happened to homosexuals... only a couple of decades ago homosexuals were being arrested and charged with homosexuality, but it has not happened to Christians in the USA so far as I know.)

The second sign of persecution would be a different application of law for Christians. For example, if the police turned a blind-eye to Christians being beaten up and their businesses being robbed, whereas they continued to police the safety of non-Christians. Also, an isolated case of this would not be persecution, that would be an injustice, but if it was systemic and not addressed by the institutions, that would be a persecution. (Note, this has happened to homosexuals, but not to Christians so far as I know.)

Thirdly, if community groups and institutions exclude or degrade Christians (such as not allowing your kids to join the school, or boy-scouts, or refuse to serve Christians in shops, or make Christians sit in a segregated area of the theatre or the back of the bus) then that would be persecution. Again, one case of this happening would not indicate a persecution, but where this discrimination is acceptable to the society, that is persecution. (Note, these types of things have happened to homosexuals, but I think it does not characterize the treatment of Christians in the USA.)

It's equally important to recognize a few things that do NOT constitute persecution:

Since the USA allows for anyone to initiate a lawsuit about anything, then individual lawsuits do not make a persecution. They just make for a few litigious pricks. It is the result of the lawsuits that counts, because they reflect the ruling of law.

Customers boycotting Chick-fillet because they don't like the religion of the owner is not persecution. That's freedom. It's also a pretty nasty side to a fractured society, but it is not persecution. You are also free to not buy from businesses run by people promoting abortion, for example.

Public companies firing execs who speak out on controversial Christian beliefs is not persecution. That's capitalism. The company is acting as they believe to be in the best interests of their shareholders. Specifically, they don't want execs who make customers angry with them. See Chick-fillet above.

People being publicly abused, insulted, told to shut-up after speaking out on Christian beliefs is not persecution. That's rudeness and bullying. Those ugly responses range from free-speech, through to criminally threatening language. However, the same laws to protect you from threatening and abusive language apply to everyone. They are not different for Christians. If the law or the police or the courts allowed bullying and threatening behaviour toward Christians, but did not allow threatening and intimidating behaviour toward non-Christians, then that would be persecution.

Finding that your beliefs are out of fashion such that you are laughed at, mocked, parodied in the media... that is NOT persecution. That's just human social groups. There are norms, and there are taboos. That's just free speech. If you have a fixed set of morals, then I guess you can't expect to always be in-step with a changing society.

If the law says that your catering/engineering/telecommunications business must serve homosexuals equally as it serves other people, that is not persecution. That is the prevention of persecution.

So, many of the items Onxy describes above are actually happening under ISIS and in other Muslim countries. THAT is persecution.
We have simply not experienced this in the US, despite the persecution complex we assume upon ourselves.
Assume? Hardly, but we are too dumb to see the arrival of these things just around the bend. The measure doesn't begin at the far end of the spectrum the rest of the world enjoys,it begins as we see it here. The other end is the result.
Last edited by Kerdy on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:29 pm

Hovannes wrote:per·se·cu·tion
/ˌpərsəˈkyo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: persecution; plural noun: persecutions

hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.
"her family fled religious persecution"

synonyms: oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination, tyranny; More
informalwitch hunt

"victims of religious persecution"

•harassment, hounding, intimidation, bullying
"the persecution she endured at school"

•persistent annoyance or harassment.
"his persecution at the hands of other students"
:whistling:
Stop being rational while others are being intentionally obtuse. No Christian has ever been accosted in this country...ever, and even if they had its not as bad as somewhere else so they shouldn't complain. That whole cultural war against Christianity is imaginary. :|
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:40 pm

Hovannes wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Hovannes wrote:per·se·cu·tion
/ˌpərsəˈkyo͞oSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: persecution; plural noun: persecutions

hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.
"her family fled religious persecution"

synonyms: oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination, tyranny; More
informalwitch hunt

"victims of religious persecution"

•harassment, hounding, intimidation, bullying
"the persecution she endured at school"

•persistent annoyance or harassment.
"his persecution at the hands of other students"
:whistling:
Have you witnessed this here in the USA? Have you experienced this because you are a Christian?
Yes. And yes.
And it will likely get worse before it gets better (and persecution isn't the sole domain of government, you know!)
Also the persecutions are global, because Satan is.
You only THINK you have been. Until someone kicks in your door, cuts off your head and burns you're body, you haven't been. When they do you can complain, well, you wouldn't be able but if you could it would then be okay. You act like there is a movement called Freedom From Religion, or atheists and Satanism want monuments, or Sharia law is being attempted to be implemented, or schools can teach any religion other than Christianity, or people destroy Catholic Churches or make a mockery of the Mass, or a long list of other things which aren't happening as a precursor to physical violence. Get real, pal. And if something did happen to you, you probably deserved it by pushing your terrorist (yep,we've been called worse than terrorists by more than a few folks) type of religion down someone's throat by praying in public or something.

(Just a hint of sarcasm. Hope you don't mind, I couldn't help myself.)
Last edited by Kerdy on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:42 pm

Kerdy wrote:Image
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:45 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Kerdy wrote:Image
I couldn't find one of a donkeys butt for you.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:46 pm

Kerdy, I hoped you would contribute to this thread but, seriously, the whining is starting to give me a headache.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:49 pm

UncleBob wrote:Kerdy, I hoped you would contribute to this thread but, seriously, the whining is starting to give me a headache.
:bacon:
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Thunktank » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:01 pm

There is currently low levels of persecution in this country. Much of it is being directed against conservative Christians. The New Atheists are making intellectual bullying against Christians (and other faith groups) acceptable. A free people should guard against this. But let's not forget that Christians did their fair share of persecuting that to date is probably among the worse that happened in our country. Christians justified their deadly destructive treatment against blacks and Indians, later less deadly treatment against other kinds of Christians like the Irish Catholics, then even lower levels of persecution against atheists.

We ought to maintain and build a culture that values a loyal opposition. Good ethical debate and a clear idea of when it's more harmful than good to be "right" and choose unhelpful ways of making others comply.

But seriously, everyone gets picked on and there's a cycle of who gets picked on the most at any given time. In many ways, we are doing better than we ever have as a country. But there's still room for improvement. Regardless, some of what the religious right does or attempts to do merely highlights themselves out for jesting though. It's like they don't understand that what they want to legislate offends others.

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Onyx » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:14 pm

The greatest danger Christians have been in was when they lived in Christian countries. Catholics and Protestants tortured, imprisoned and killed each other. That was persecution.

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:53 pm

Onyx wrote:The greatest danger Christians have been in was when they lived in Christian countries. Catholics and Protestants tortured, imprisoned and killed each other. That was persecution.
Tell that to the Russians after the fall of the empire, or Christians in China, or anywhere in the Middle East, or those in the early Church, or...get my point? Your selective choices make you a tad incorrect.

Next you'll explain how evil Christians were during the Inquisition or during the Crusades.

Edit: I was thinking about what you said and though I believe you didn't mean it this way, I think you may be right to some degree. There certainly will be persecution from within by those who have strayed from the path and been led astray by modern jubberish. Of course, they will be the RINOs of the Christian world.
Last edited by Kerdy on Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:55 pm

Thunktank wrote:There is currently low levels of persecution in this country. Much of it is being directed against conservative Christians. The New Atheists are making intellectual bullying against Christians (and other faith groups) acceptable. A free people should guard against this. But let's not forget that Christians did their fair share of persecuting that to date is probably among the worse that happened in our country. Christians justified their deadly destructive treatment against blacks and Indians, later less deadly treatment against other kinds of Christians like the Irish Catholics, then even lower levels of persecution against atheists.

We ought to maintain and build a culture that values a loyal opposition. Good ethical debate and a clear idea of when it's more harmful than good to be "right" and choose unhelpful ways of making others comply.

But seriously, everyone gets picked on and there's a cycle of who gets picked on the most at any given time. In many ways, we are doing better than we ever have as a country. But there's still room for improvement. Regardless, some of what the religious right does or attempts to do merely highlights themselves out for jesting though. It's like they don't understand that what they want to legislate offends others.
Everyone gets picked on so it's okay. And here I've been teaching my kids to be kind to others (except those conservative right wingers. I never realized Christianity was dictated by politics.)
Last edited by Kerdy on Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by A_Morley » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:57 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:The greatest danger Christians have been in was when they lived in Christian countries. Catholics and Protestants tortured, imprisoned and killed each other. That was persecution.
Tell that to the Russians after the fall of the empire, or Christians in China, or anywhere in the Middle East, or those in the early Church, or...get my point? Your selective choices make you a tad incorrect.

Next you'll explain how evil Christians were during the Inquisition or during the Crusades.
It is interesting to note that all of these Christian persecutions which you cite occurred after the overthrow of a monarchy.

I'll say nothing about the Crusades and the Inquisition other than that I heartily agree with them in principal.
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Re: A Coming Persecution

Post by Kerdy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:02 pm

A_Morley wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:The greatest danger Christians have been in was when they lived in Christian countries. Catholics and Protestants tortured, imprisoned and killed each other. That was persecution.
Tell that to the Russians after the fall of the empire, or Christians in China, or anywhere in the Middle East, or those in the early Church, or...get my point? Your selective choices make you a tad incorrect.

Next you'll explain how evil Christians were during the Inquisition or during the Crusades.
It is interesting to note that all of these Christian persecutions which you cite occurred after the overthrow of a monarchy.

I'll say nothing about the Crusades and the Inquisition other than that I heartily agree with them in principal.
Interesting, yes. Relevant, I'm not so sure. Perhaps, but they were the ones which came to mind after reading what Onyx posted. There are others.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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