What is Progressive Christianity?

For those deep thinkers out there.
User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:35 am

Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:39 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:19 am
LOL!

It is truly amazing how few people here, when opining on some subject, fail to ask themselves this question: "I wonder how those folks define themselves?" Of course, Skip's Axiom is in play, I suppose.

https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/
I think there are a lot of people who ascribe to progressive christianity without realizing that it is progressive christianity - or calling it by that name. Likewise, there are varying degrees of progressiveness among different pastors, teachers, congregations, etc.
The point is that instead of opining "I think progressive Christians are X..." it might do some good to see what progressive Christians say they believe and who they are. But this is a common failing of American Christianity in general: What I say you are is more "real" (to me) than what you say you are especially when I have no evidence or clear idea of what it is that you say you are. Consider this: Who are you to say who is a progressive Christian or not? Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate? Or is this just "lets bash us sum liberals!"?
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
hugodrax
A Complete Kneebiter
A Complete Kneebiter
Posts: 17864
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:54 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:35 am
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:39 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:19 am
LOL!

It is truly amazing how few people here, when opining on some subject, fail to ask themselves this question: "I wonder how those folks define themselves?" Of course, Skip's Axiom is in play, I suppose.

https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/
I think there are a lot of people who ascribe to progressive christianity without realizing that it is progressive christianity - or calling it by that name. Likewise, there are varying degrees of progressiveness among different pastors, teachers, congregations, etc.
The point is that instead of opining "I think progressive Christians are X..." it might do some good to see what progressive Christians say they believe and who they are. But this is a common failing of American Christianity in general: What I say you are is more "real" (to me) than what you say you are especially when I have no evidence or clear idea of what it is that you say you are. Consider this: Who are you to say who is a progressive Christian or not? Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate? Or is this just "lets bash us sum liberals!"?
. Not my fight.
Last edited by hugodrax on Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am also of the opinion that the Jesuits should be suppressed.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:58 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:54 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:35 am
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:39 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:19 am
LOL!

It is truly amazing how few people here, when opining on some subject, fail to ask themselves this question: "I wonder how those folks define themselves?" Of course, Skip's Axiom is in play, I suppose.

https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/
I think there are a lot of people who ascribe to progressive christianity without realizing that it is progressive christianity - or calling it by that name. Likewise, there are varying degrees of progressiveness among different pastors, teachers, congregations, etc.
The point is that instead of opining "I think progressive Christians are X..." it might do some good to see what progressive Christians say they believe and who they are. But this is a common failing of American Christianity in general: What I say you are is more "real" (to me) than what you say you are especially when I have no evidence or clear idea of what it is that you say you are. Consider this: Who are you to say who is a progressive Christian or not? Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate? Or is this just "lets bash us sum liberals!"?
Oooh, Bob is so FIERCE when he's on his high horse!

I love how he cries out in pain as he viciously attacks. Textbook maneuver.

Get it straight--racist if you disagree politically, Republican if you disagree theologically. Got it? Good.

Go get em, tiger. I'm sure you'll destroy your straw man.
Shall I tell you what it REALLY means to be Catholic? A Lawyer? See what I mean?
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Goose55
Bartleby the Scrivener
Bartleby the Scrivener
Posts: 8212
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:01 am

Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:56 am
Progressive Christianity..This hyper-politicized Christianity (which, I should add, is also found outside of progressive Christianity) reflects the failure of eschatological vision - All hinges on the NOW because they don't see our "not yet" identity.
I think what Adam is saying here is important. He suggests that a traditional Christian could call themselves progressive but only because it is God's actions in them that is causing them to progress. And that progress is brought about through God's command to "be holy," to "be perfect."

As for progressivism's belief in "oneness," it is very different from the oneness described in Scripture. Scriptural oneness is not all-inclusive because there will come a time when the wheat is separated from the chaff and the sheep from the goats.

So-called Progressive Christianity is a very much watered down form of Christianity. It hardly resembles it at all.
Last edited by Goose55 on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
hugodrax
A Complete Kneebiter
A Complete Kneebiter
Posts: 17864
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am

UncleBob, it would be nice if you could see how much you do what you condemn in others without realizing it. You're very good at seeing this particular fault in others, absolutely blind when you do it yourself.
I am also of the opinion that the Jesuits should be suppressed.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:06 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am
UncleBob, it would be nice if you could see how much you do what you condemn in others without realizing it. You're very good at seeing this particular fault in others, absolutely blind when you do it yourself.
Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate?
I have no problem with criticism but it should be based on evidence rather than speculation.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Adam Z
Elder
Elder
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:35 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Adam Z » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:19 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:35 am
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:39 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:19 am
LOL!

It is truly amazing how few people here, when opining on some subject, fail to ask themselves this question: "I wonder how those folks define themselves?" Of course, Skip's Axiom is in play, I suppose.

https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/
I think there are a lot of people who ascribe to progressive christianity without realizing that it is progressive christianity - or calling it by that name. Likewise, there are varying degrees of progressiveness among different pastors, teachers, congregations, etc.
The point is that instead of opining "I think progressive Christians are X..." it might do some good to see what progressive Christians say they believe and who they are. But this is a common failing of American Christianity in general: What I say you are is more "real" (to me) than what you say you are especially when I have no evidence or clear idea of what it is that you say you are. Consider this: Who are you to say who is a progressive Christian or not? Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate? Or is this just "lets bash us sum liberals!"?
Fair enough. For what it's worth, I've listened to some Rob Bell lectures. I've read one of his books (Velvet Elvis). I even attended one of his lectures in the flesh. He is one of the leading voices of progressive christianity. Not only is he affirming of same sex relationships, but he also denies the existence of hell. This whole thing about believing there is more value to be found in the questions than in the answers (axiom 5) is narcissistic hogwash, but it's also an idea that can be found in the pages of Velvet Elvis. I've also listened to many episodes of The Liturgists as well as The Bad Christian Podcast in which many of these issues that are central to progressive Christianity have been discussed at length, and several of the other names I listed have appeared as featured guests. I've read "Science Mike" McHargue's (one of the hosts of The Liturgists) autobiography - Finding God in the Waves: How I Lost My Faith and Found it Again Through Science in which he expresses a grossly incomplete view of penal substitutionary atonement, placing a great emphasis on God's love, while being neglectful of God's holiness. I mean, here's what McHargue says is the list of claims that he can confidently make about Jesus:
1. Jesus was a real person, or maybe a few people in the first century.
2. His teachings moved people enough that he began to attract a significant following.
3. What Jesus taught put him at odds with political leaders to the point that he was probably crucified.
4. The teachings of Jesus inspired a persistent social religious movement after his death. Over time this movement became the largest religion in human history.
I'm glad to hear that he thinks Jesus was a real person, but "maybe a few people"??? And this is all he could come up with in the way of claims that he can confidently make about Jesus???

I can objectively say that progressive Christians hold a low view of scripture. This isn't just something I regurgitated from a conservative blog. Progressive Christians will on one hand espouse to be Christ followers, but then question whether or not Jesus really did rise from the dead. They'll tell you that they don't believe that Adam and Eve were actual individual people, and that they do not believe the God spoke the world into existence. Likewise, Noah may not have been a real person, and there certainly was no global flood. They deny the inerrancy of Scripture (Peter Enns wrote a book about this - recommended only for polemics research purposes), and say that the Bible is both contradictory and unreliable. I'd say that all of this collectively makes for a rather low view of scripture.
Last edited by Adam Z on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
hugodrax
A Complete Kneebiter
A Complete Kneebiter
Posts: 17864
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:26 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:06 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am
UncleBob, it would be nice if you could see how much you do what you condemn in others without realizing it. You're very good at seeing this particular fault in others, absolutely blind when you do it yourself.
Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate?
I have no problem with criticism but it should be based on evidence rather than speculation.
Not entirely sure where you're going with this...if you're talking about progressive christianity, you're absolutely right. The splendid thing about the movement, at least from that page you linked to, is its utter indefinability. I challenge anybody to read the 8 points and figure out precisely what they mean.

If you're going to why I think you dont perceive your own biases, well, that's based on reading your posts over time, the sources you use and the words you choose. I'll give you this, though, I believe it is subconscious with you and you would root it out if you knew it was there. That's probably why I like you and continue to interact long after the point where I wouldnt with others. Theres a likeability to you that most fundamentalists don't have.
I am also of the opinion that the Jesuits should be suppressed.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:28 am

Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:19 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:35 am
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:39 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:19 am
LOL!

It is truly amazing how few people here, when opining on some subject, fail to ask themselves this question: "I wonder how those folks define themselves?" Of course, Skip's Axiom is in play, I suppose.

https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/
I think there are a lot of people who ascribe to progressive christianity without realizing that it is progressive christianity - or calling it by that name. Likewise, there are varying degrees of progressiveness among different pastors, teachers, congregations, etc.
The point is that instead of opining "I think progressive Christians are X..." it might do some good to see what progressive Christians say they believe and who they are. But this is a common failing of American Christianity in general: What I say you are is more "real" (to me) than what you say you are especially when I have no evidence or clear idea of what it is that you say you are. Consider this: Who are you to say who is a progressive Christian or not? Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate? Or is this just "lets bash us sum liberals!"?
Fair enough. For what it's worth, I've listened to some Rob Bell lectures. I've read one of his books (Velvet Elvis). I even attended one of his lectures in the flesh. He is one of the leading voices of progressive christianity. Not only is he affirming of same sex relationships, but he also denies the existence of hell. This whole thing about believing there is more value to be found in the questions than in the answers (axiom 5) is narcissistic hogwash, but it's also an idea that can be found in the pages of Velvet Elvis. I've also listened to many episodes of The Liturgists as well as The Bad Christian Podcast in which many of these issues that are central to progressive Christianity have been discussed at length, and several of the other names I listed have appeared as featured guests. I've read "Science Mike" McHargue's (one of the hosts of The Liturgists) autobiography - Finding God in the Waves: How I Lost My Faith and Found it Again Through Science in which he expresses a grossly incomplete view of penal substitutionary atonement, placing a great emphasis on God's love, while being neglectful of God's holiness. I mean, here's what McHargue says is the list of claims that he can confidently make about Jesus:
1. Jesus was a real person, or maybe a few people in the first century.
2. His teachings moved people enough that he began to attract a significant following.
3. What Jesus taught put him at odds with political leaders to the point that he was probably crucified.
4. The teachings of Jesus inspired a persistent social religious movement after his death. Over time this movement became the largest religion in human history.
I'm glad to hear that he thinks Jesus was a real person, but "maybe a few people"??? And this is all he could come up with in the way of claims that he can confidently make about Jesus???

I can objectively say that progressive Christians hold a low view of scripture. This isn't just something I regurgitated from a conservative blog. Progressive Christians will on one hand espouse to be Christ followers, but then question whether or not Jesus really did rise from the dead. They'll tell you that they don't believe that Adam and Eve were actual individual people, and that they do not believe the God spoke the world into existence. Likewise, Noah may not have been a real person, and there certainly was no global flood. They deny the inerrancy of Scripture (Peter Enns wrote a book about this - recommended only for polemics research purposes), and say that the Bible is both contradictory and unreliable.
What is universal about Progressive Christians and what they teach? Is this what all progressives teach or is it what some teach? Maybe this is just what some fundamentalists say they teach? I read Fred Phelps teachings once.. is that what all fundamentalists teach? Where is the universal standard of what progressives teach? The only standard I found is from this website: https://progressivechristianity.org/wha ... istianity/
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:32 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:26 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:06 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am
UncleBob, it would be nice if you could see how much you do what you condemn in others without realizing it. You're very good at seeing this particular fault in others, absolutely blind when you do it yourself.
Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate?
I have no problem with criticism but it should be based on evidence rather than speculation.
Not entirely sure where you're going with this...if you're talking about progressive christianity, you're absolutely right. The splendid thing about the movement, at least from that page you linked to, is its utter indefinability. I challenge anybody to read the 8 points and figure out precisely what they mean.

If you're going to why I think you dont perceive your own biases, well, that's based on reading your posts over time, the sources you use and the words you choose. I'll give you this, though, I believe it is subconscious with you and you would root it out if you knew it was there. That's probably why I like you and continue to interact long after the point where I wouldnt with others. Theres a likeability to you that most fundamentalists don't have.
I'm talking about progressive Christianity. It seems that it is being used, here, as a bugbear where one can just project whatever one doesn't like without even looking. Plus, what happened to all the progressive Christian members on CPS? Why did they leave?
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Goose55
Bartleby the Scrivener
Bartleby the Scrivener
Posts: 8212
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 am

There's all-inclusiveness, and all are coming along nicely, "progressing" to be sure. Toward one end or another.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
Adam Z
Elder
Elder
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:35 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Adam Z » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am

UncleBob wrote:
What is universal about Progressive Christians and what they teach? Is this what all progressives teach or is it what some teach? Maybe this is just what some fundamentalists say they teach? I read Fred Phelps teachings once.. is that what all fundamentalists teach? Where is the universal standard of what progressives teach? The only standard I found is from this website: https://progressivechristianity.org/wha ... istianity/
I'm not saying that all progressive Christians are monolithic in their ideology. Of course there is going to be some variance. When I say that they hold a low view of scripture, that's deductive reasoning. They won't say "I hold a low view of scripture" but this is the logical result of the things that they say that they do believe. Earlier in this conversation I referenced their Axiom #2 from the page you linked to. You cannot both affirm the teachings of Jesus AND say that his teachings "provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life". That statement is entirely contradictory, and this is just low-hanging fruit that I'm plucking here. If you affirm the teachings of Jesus, then you must also affirm that it is only through Christ that man can be reconciled to God. Therefore, either they don't really affirm the teachings of Jesus, or they only affirm some of the teachings of Jesus, and they have not defined the standard by which they go about determining which of his teachings are worthwhile and which should be ignored. The logical conclusion here is that they do not believe that scripture is reliable. They hold a low view of scripture, without implicitly saying it.

User avatar
hugodrax
A Complete Kneebiter
A Complete Kneebiter
Posts: 17864
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:47 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:32 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:26 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:06 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:03 am
UncleBob, it would be nice if you could see how much you do what you condemn in others without realizing it. You're very good at seeing this particular fault in others, absolutely blind when you do it yourself.
Have you studied it or is it just a gut feeling? What evidence do you have? Where does the evidence originate?
I have no problem with criticism but it should be based on evidence rather than speculation.
Not entirely sure where you're going with this...if you're talking about progressive christianity, you're absolutely right. The splendid thing about the movement, at least from that page you linked to, is its utter indefinability. I challenge anybody to read the 8 points and figure out precisely what they mean.

If you're going to why I think you dont perceive your own biases, well, that's based on reading your posts over time, the sources you use and the words you choose. I'll give you this, though, I believe it is subconscious with you and you would root it out if you knew it was there. That's probably why I like you and continue to interact long after the point where I wouldnt with others. Theres a likeability to you that most fundamentalists don't have.
I'm talking about progressive Christianity. It seems that it is being used, here, as a bugbear where one can just project whatever one doesn't like without even looking. Plus, what happened to all the progressive Christian members on CPS? Why did they leave?
Ah, like postmodernism. Gotcha. Mea culpa.

They were gone before I got here, sir, and I knew none of them. My guess is this wasnt an environment they found congenial, but I wouldn't know unless I asked any of them, would I? Otherwise I'd be putting words in their mouth. We probably shouldn't do that.
I am also of the opinion that the Jesuits should be suppressed.

User avatar
Adam Z
Elder
Elder
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:35 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Adam Z » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:48 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:32 am

I'm talking about progressive Christianity. It seems that it is being used, here, as a bugbear where one can just project whatever one doesn't like without even looking.
I'm not just projecting what I don't like without looking. I have been looking - and not just at stuff that is anti-progressive christianity. I've spent countless hours reading these people and listening to their own words.

User avatar
Goose55
Bartleby the Scrivener
Bartleby the Scrivener
Posts: 8212
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:57 am

What we'd like is not a Father in Heaven, but a grandfather, who simply likes to see young people having a good time. And where it may be said at the end of the day, "a good time was had by all."

Would that be progress? I can see how that some might think so.
Last edited by Goose55 on Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:59 am

Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
UncleBob wrote:
What is universal about Progressive Christians and what they teach? Is this what all progressives teach or is it what some teach? Maybe this is just what some fundamentalists say they teach? I read Fred Phelps teachings once.. is that what all fundamentalists teach? Where is the universal standard of what progressives teach? The only standard I found is from this website: https://progressivechristianity.org/wha ... istianity/
I'm not saying that all progressive Christians are monolithic in their ideology. Of course there is going to be some variance. When I say that they hold a low view of scripture, that's deductive reasoning. They won't say "I hold a low view of scripture" but this is the logical result of the things that they say that they do believe. Earlier in this conversation I referenced their Axiom #2 from the page you linked to. You cannot both affirm the teachings of Jesus AND say that his teachings "provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life". That statement is entirely contradictory, and this is just low-hanging fruit that I'm plucking here. If you affirm the teachings of Jesus, then you must also affirm that it is only through Christ that man can be reconciled to God. Therefore, either they don't really affirm the teachings of Jesus, or they only affirm some of the teachings of Jesus, and they have not defined the standard by which they go about determining which of his teachings are worthwhile and which should be ignored. The logical conclusion here is that they do not believe that scripture is reliable. They hold a low view of scripture, without implicitly saying it.
Or, that they do believe that scripture is reliable but don't agree with your specific hermeneutic. Oh, and...
You cannot both affirm the teachings of Jesus AND say that his teachings "provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life".
...well, from the Philosophy Thread...
Del wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:59 pm
I am slowly reading Plato's Dialogues.

He is easy to read.

I have also opened the Summa of Thomas Aquinas. He is much denser.... still, easy enough for any lover of philosophy to enjoy. You'll get clobbered with great wisdom on every page of St. Thomas Aquinas. On page 1, we learn that it was possible to know God through Reason alone -- but 1) it was only known to a few very wise persons (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle), 2) after a very long time, and 3) with a great many errors mixed in. That is why God revealed Himself to us -- so that the whole world can know the truth.
No one here is going to call Del a progressive! Just sayin'. Plus, this was a common view held by the early Church--maybe there is room in The Church for views that do not follow the specific, narrow definition that you used; who knows! Maybe they could even be right!
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Goose55
Bartleby the Scrivener
Bartleby the Scrivener
Posts: 8212
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:28 pm

Image
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
durangopipe
Under-secretary to the Minister of Pipe Breaking
Under-secretary to the Minister of Pipe Breaking
Posts: 6498
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:58 pm
Location: Southwest Colorado

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by durangopipe » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:39 pm

1) it was only known to a few very wise persons (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle),2) after a very long time, and 3) with a great many errors mixed in. That is why God revealed Himself to us -- so that the whole world can know the truth.
If one came to know God through reason 300 or 400 years before the incarnation and the gift of the entirety of scripture (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle), it would be difficult to imagine their understanding as “Christian” either progressive or otherwise.
“aquinasblog” wrote:For Aquinas, the Trinity is at the heart of Christian teaching, and our understanding of it comes solely from Scripture (and church teaching which conforms to Scripture). He thinks we can reason to the existence of God, but not to the Trinity; if we know about the Trinity, it's only because of what Christ has said, not because of anything we could have figured out for ourselves. However, Aquinas thinks we can explore what the patterns might mean that are described in Scripture and Church teaching about the makeup of the unknowable cause of existence, and this he does.

Here's his take on the Trinity.

Aquinas thinks that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, while referred to as 'persons,' are not in any way like separate individuals in the category God (e.g., the Father as the 'old man,' the Son as the 'young man,' the Holy Spirit as the 'dove'). He thinks the essential distinction that makes up the Trinity is one of relationships (i.e., states of being connected or ways in which two or more things are connected) that occur within God. And what these relationships describe is God's self-knowledge and love. (You philosophers of consciousness out there ought to have a great time with this one.)

Before the incarnation and the whole of scripture,
... a great many errors mixed in.

Degrees of knowledge of God before the incarnation and biblical canon? Partial knowledge until the incarnation and the gift of the whole of scripture (and the Holy Church). Does Aquinas truly say one might reason one’s self to God?

As is his won’t, that sneaky Aquinas opens a door for us into a very large room. We could ramble around in it for a very long time and never see all of it, oh, but what an amazing room to prayerfully roam around in!


But this is small potatoes compared with a far more serious issue.
Del’s Post here matters.

And then someone called Del a progressive.

There’s going to be a reckoning!
Kilts will be flying!

:box:
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

User avatar
Adam Z
Elder
Elder
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:35 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by Adam Z » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:02 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:59 am
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
UncleBob wrote:
What is universal about Progressive Christians and what they teach? Is this what all progressives teach or is it what some teach? Maybe this is just what some fundamentalists say they teach? I read Fred Phelps teachings once.. is that what all fundamentalists teach? Where is the universal standard of what progressives teach? The only standard I found is from this website: https://progressivechristianity.org/wha ... istianity/
I'm not saying that all progressive Christians are monolithic in their ideology. Of course there is going to be some variance. When I say that they hold a low view of scripture, that's deductive reasoning. They won't say "I hold a low view of scripture" but this is the logical result of the things that they say that they do believe. Earlier in this conversation I referenced their Axiom #2 from the page you linked to. You cannot both affirm the teachings of Jesus AND say that his teachings "provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life". That statement is entirely contradictory, and this is just low-hanging fruit that I'm plucking here. If you affirm the teachings of Jesus, then you must also affirm that it is only through Christ that man can be reconciled to God. Therefore, either they don't really affirm the teachings of Jesus, or they only affirm some of the teachings of Jesus, and they have not defined the standard by which they go about determining which of his teachings are worthwhile and which should be ignored. The logical conclusion here is that they do not believe that scripture is reliable. They hold a low view of scripture, without implicitly saying it.
Or, that they do believe that scripture is reliable but don't agree with your specific hermeneutic. Or, I've actually seen and heard progressive Christians making such assertions. Oh, and...
You cannot both affirm the teachings of Jesus AND say that his teachings "provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life".
...well, from the Philosophy Thread...
Del wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:59 pm
I am slowly reading Plato's Dialogues.

He is easy to read.

I have also opened the Summa of Thomas Aquinas. He is much denser.... still, easy enough for any lover of philosophy to enjoy. You'll get clobbered with great wisdom on every page of St. Thomas Aquinas. On page 1, we learn that it was possible to know God through Reason alone Aquinas' opinion here cannot be defended using scripture, which would argue otherwise, but that's a whole 'nother discussion, and we digress.-- but 1) it was only known to a few very wise persons (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle), 2) after a very long time, and 3) with a great many errors mixed in. That is why God revealed Himself to us -- so that the whole world can know the truth.
No one here is going to call Del a progressive! Just sayin'. Plus, this was a common view held by the early Church--maybe there is room in The Church for views that do not follow the specific, narrow definition that you used; who knows! Maybe they could even be right!
Why even attempt to define progressive Christianity if every attempt to do so here is going to get shot down for reason of there being no unifying creed that progressive Christians ascribe to? Can we not look at what self-professed progressive Christians say that they think and believe on a case by case basis and draw conclusions from that? Especially when we see certain ideas repeated by different leaders and/or organizations. There may not be a cohesive, unifying document in the same vein as the Westminster Confession of Faith, but we can certainly draw conclusions from their own written and spoken words.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 36191
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: What is Progressive Christianity?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:24 pm

Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:02 pm

Why even attempt to define progressive Christianity if every attempt to do so here is going to get shot down for reason of there being no unifying creed that progressive Christians ascribe to? Can we not look at what self-professed progressive Christians say that they think and believe on a case by case basis and draw conclusions from that? Especially when we see certain ideas repeated by different leaders and/or organizations. There may not be a cohesive, unifying document in the same vein as the Westminster Confession of Faith, but we can certainly draw conclusions from their own written and spoken words.
You can go case-by-case; that's cool. But are you a fundamentalist? Do you like being lumped in with Fred Phelps and so on? How would you react to, "All fundamentalists believe what Fred Phelps teaches"? We used to have some progressive Christians on here but, due to in no small part, these kinds of "All you progressives believe X" contributed to their departure. You wish to rail against "progressive Christians"? Why is that? There aren't even any here who identify as progressive Christians, I don't believe.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

Post Reply