Reformation at 500

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Cleon » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:16 am

Planning for Reformation Day 2017 has begun. It looks like it will be in an open air shelter house in the main city park with a bonfire\cookout afterwards.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:09 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:47 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:20 pm
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:57 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:23 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:39 pm
Luther was generally positive toward the Eastern Orthodox church, especially because it rejected many of the things he most disliked about the Roman Catholic church: clerical celibacy, papal supremacy, purgatory, indulgences, and Communion by bread alone. He frequently referred to the beliefs and practices of the "Greek church," as he called it, as evidence that Catholics had deviated from principles upon which Christians formerly agreed.

Article here
Right. Instead of Purgatory, ya get Aerial Toll Houses.

Something tells me that Luther wouldn't have been so keen on that, either.
In some forms, the teaching is taught in hagiographical and other spiritual texts from quite early in the history of the Church, but it has never been formally promulgated by any ecumenical council. A number of the Orthodox saints, modern elders and theologians have openly endorsed it, but some theologians and bishops, starting from the last century, have condemned it as heretical and gnostic in origin.

Wiki link
And?

FTR, I got no problem with the Toll House doctrine, provided that it's understood within the boundaries of the Faith. But that's the case with Purgatory, as well. The PurgatAerial framework is conceptually problematic and easily distorted. That some folk heresies have sprung up around the Toll Houses is neither surprising nor does it invalidate the doctrine ipso facto.

The point is that Orthodoxy has its own Purgatorial impulse. It has its own inbuilt analogue, regardless of how this analogue is qualified, downplayed or even shuffled under the rug. This impulse is going to manifest glaringly (and often, mawkishly) in folk spiritualities, whether the official hierarchy wants it to or not.

And it's precisely this which Luther would never have countenanced, had he fully turned to the East (and was not rebuffed by them). One the honeymoon period was over, Luther would have found the shine to have worn off his turd mighty quickly.
I remember Br. Nikolai was a proponent of toll houses, more as a concept than exacting dogma. If nothing else, it's food for thought. Interestingly, as I remember it however, the saints who taught it, didn't use the same passages of Scripture to defend the concept that the Catholics typically do in the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Not that it matters, just interesting given the fact that both are speaking of the soul immediately following death of the body.
Purgatory is back already! YAY!
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:50 am

Cleon wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:16 am
Planning for Reformation Day 2017 has begun. It looks like it will be in an open air shelter house in the main city park with a bonfire\cookout afterwards.
That's awesome!

The Lutherans (Missouri Synod) are going to hold a hymn sing in one of Kansas City's most premiere Performing Arts centers. The (free) event sold out like lightning. My pastor and I only heard about it afterwards and were bummed about it being sold out. But then we heard today that they're going to release more tickets for an earlier time. I'm hoping to be able to score some. I think it would be a phenomenal way to celebrate the 500th anniversary.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:43 am

The Wisconsin Synod of Lutherans have rented the Alliant Energy Center (largest venue in Madison) for a festival worship and hymn sing:
https://wels.net/event/western-wisconsi ... ss-truths/


I like the sound of what they are doing up in the UP:
Lutherfest 500
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Cleon » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:54 am

"Calvinist" movie/documentary drops today!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2twhIOEDsM4
I'm glad to see R.C. Sproul in the intro as, at first blush, this is geared towards Millennials. I love that guy. I might or might not post a review later on.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:13 am

Cleon wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:54 am
"Calvinist" movie/documentary drops today!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2twhIOEDsM4
I'm glad to see R.C. Sproul in the intro as, at first blush, this is geared towards Millennials. I love that guy. I might or might not post a review later on.
I may have pre-ordered..... 5 of these.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:42 am

"The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God."

Martin Luther, The 95 Thesis: #62

October 31, 1517
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:49 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:42 am
"The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God."

Martin Luther, The 95 Thesis: #62

October 31, 1517
Image
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:50 am

Robert Farrar Capon wrote:“The Reformation was a time when men went blind, staggering drunk because they had discovered, in the dusty basement of late medievalism, a whole cellar full of fifteen-hundred-year-old, two-hundred proof Grace–bottle after bottle of pure distilate of Scripture, one sip of which would convince anyone that God saves us single-handedly. The word of the Gospel–after all those centuries of trying to lift yourself into heaven by worrying about the perfection of your bootstraps–suddenly turned out to be a flat announcement that the saved were home before they started…Grace has to be drunk straight: no water, no ice, and certainly no ginger ale; neither goodness, nor badness, not the flowers that bloom in the spring of super spirituality could be allowed to enter into the case.”
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:36 am

Jester wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:42 am
"The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God."

Martin Luther, The 95 Thesis: #62

October 31, 1517
Image
This is truth enough, although I see how it could easily be twisted out of context.

I once heard a priest in a sermon say that "The three most important things about the Catholic Church are (1) Jesus Christ, (2) Jesus Christ, and (3) Jesus Christ." I suspect that this is what Luther was trying to get at.

I have not read Luther's 95 theses, but I suspect that more than a few of them are true.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:51 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:50 am
Robert Farrar Capon wrote:“The Reformation was a time when men went blind, staggering drunk because they had discovered, in the dusty basement of late medievalism, a whole cellar full of fifteen-hundred-year-old, two-hundred proof Grace–bottle after bottle of pure distilate of Scripture, one sip of which would convince anyone that God saves us single-handedly. The word of the Gospel–after all those centuries of trying to lift yourself into heaven by worrying about the perfection of your bootstraps–suddenly turned out to be a flat announcement that the saved were home before they started…Grace has to be drunk straight: no water, no ice, and certainly no ginger ale; neither goodness, nor badness, not the flowers that bloom in the spring of super spirituality could be allowed to enter into the case.”
Thank you for this.... I continue to struggle, trying to comprehend a view of history that can see the Reformation as a good thing. This writer really thinks that medieval Catholics were not fully aware of -- and fully in love with -- the mercy and grace of God!

My Reformation was primarily about wealth, politics, persecution and stealing faith from the people.

I respect your celebrations, but I am mourning today.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Sir Moose » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:15 am

An interesting article about the Reformation in a Catholic publication:

The Reformation Then and Now
What compels me most on this commemoration of the Reformation is the need for a new reformation today. When we consider the causes of the Reformation, we can see some of the same trends today in our society and Church. However, these trends are not particularly Protestant or Catholic. The decadence and doctrinal drift are at epidemic proportions in the progressive arms of both the Protestant and Catholic Churches. Furthermore, they are the same problems that faced the late medieval Church albeit, in a different incarnation.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:30 am

Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:15 am
An interesting article about the Reformation in a Catholic publication:

The Reformation Then and Now
What compels me most on this commemoration of the Reformation is the need for a new reformation today. When we consider the causes of the Reformation, we can see some of the same trends today in our society and Church. However, these trends are not particularly Protestant or Catholic. The decadence and doctrinal drift are at epidemic proportions in the progressive arms of both the Protestant and Catholic Churches. Furthermore, they are the same problems that faced the late medieval Church albeit, in a different incarnation.
Ah! Fr. Dwight Longenecker! I know him well... He led us on a pilgrimage to holy sites in England.

He was raised as a fierce Bible Evangelical, graduating with a degree in Bible Studies from Bob Jones University in South Carolina.

Then he fell in love with England and was ordained as an Anglican priest, serving as a vicar in England.

But he left the Anglican priesthood in the 1980's over the leftward doctrinal drift away from Apostolic faith.

He returned to America, and after some time and discernment he was ordained as a Catholic priest back home in South Carolina.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by wosbald » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm

+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …




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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …
Luther & Melanchthon, to their credit, were not directly responsible for the killing of any Christians. They were down when the movement really was an honest protest for reform.

We would not have had the purification of Trent... and the strength of mind and will to defeat the Turks at Lepanto & Vienna, or to withstand the Nazis and the Communists.

Something I realized as I listened to Mr. Trump give his inspiring speech in Warsaw, praising the greatness of Western Civilization: Europe could not have answered God's call to greatness if we had not endured the chastisement of the Reformation.

But if the Vatican Post issues stamps for Zwingli, Calvin, or Cromwell, I will be scandalized.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:11 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …
Luther & Melanchthon, to their credit, were not directly responsible for the killing of any Christians. They were down when the movement really was an honest protest for reform.
No Luther was hard-line on peasants in revolt so he encouraged wild massacres of peasants. They were Christians too. He didn't seem to greet the Lutheran revolution as interpreted by peasants very kindly. But in fact the revolution took off without him. The economic order at the time was very unfair to the peasant class.
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
We would not have had the purification of Trent... and the strength of mind and will to defeat the Turks at Lepanto & Vienna, or to withstand the Nazis and the Communists.

Something I realized as I listened to Mr. Trump give his inspiring speech in Warsaw, praising the greatness of Western Civilization: Europe could not have answered God's call to greatness if we had not endured the chastisement of the Reformation.

But if the Vatican Post issues stamps for Zwingli, Calvin, or Cromwell, I will be scandalized.
Uck! Trent was way too late. But Rome was busy being sacked for some of the time so I suppose there are mitigating circumstances beyond foot dragging. I was quite shocked at how long it took for the church to actually convene Trent. Almost a generation! Luther passed away in the second year of those many years of Trent meetings. How many years did they go? Over 15 years. So almost a half century later they have results. While the reformation went on in terms of effects Rome could not alter the course any more. They were far too late. If they had engaged much earlier there might have been debate, possibly reform, no revolution, and no war. They certainly needed reform.

I like the stamp and the Vatican's attitude.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:54 pm

Rusty wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:11 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …
Luther & Melanchthon, to their credit, were not directly responsible for the killing of any Christians. They were down when the movement really was an honest protest for reform.
No Luther was hard-line on peasants in revolt so he encouraged wild massacres of peasants. They were Christians too. He didn't seem to greet the Lutheran revolution as interpreted by peasants very kindly. But in fact the revolution took off without him. The economic order at the time was very unfair to the peasant class.
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
We would not have had the purification of Trent... and the strength of mind and will to defeat the Turks at Lepanto & Vienna, or to withstand the Nazis and the Communists.

Something I realized as I listened to Mr. Trump give his inspiring speech in Warsaw, praising the greatness of Western Civilization: Europe could not have answered God's call to greatness if we had not endured the chastisement of the Reformation.

But if the Vatican Post issues stamps for Zwingli, Calvin, or Cromwell, I will be scandalized.
Uck! Trent was way too late. But Rome was busy being sacked for some of the time so I suppose there are mitigating circumstances beyond foot dragging. I was quite shocked at how long it took for the church to actually convene Trent. Almost a generation! Luther passed away in the second year of those many years of Trent meetings. How many years did they go? Over 15 years. So almost a half century later they have results. While the reformation went on in terms of effects Rome could not alter the course any more. They were far too late. If they had engaged much earlier there might have been debate, possibly reform, no revolution, and no war. They certainly needed reform.

I like the stamp and the Vatican's attitude.
Luther wasn't remembered for having great political courage. Yes... he supported his wealthy noble benefactors against those revolting peasants. But at least he didn't order troops out to drive out Catholics and kill priests.

If the Council of Trent was only 30 years after Luther's initial rebellion, then that was about right. The Jews wandered for 40 years in the desert. The Babylonian Captivity was nearly 60 years. The Avignon exile was 67 years. Vatican II ended 52 years ago, and we are just now starting to get it right.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:26 am

Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:54 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:11 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …
Luther & Melanchthon, to their credit, were not directly responsible for the killing of any Christians. They were down when the movement really was an honest protest for reform.
No Luther was hard-line on peasants in revolt so he encouraged wild massacres of peasants. They were Christians too. He didn't seem to greet the Lutheran revolution as interpreted by peasants very kindly. But in fact the revolution took off without him. The economic order at the time was very unfair to the peasant class.
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
We would not have had the purification of Trent... and the strength of mind and will to defeat the Turks at Lepanto & Vienna, or to withstand the Nazis and the Communists.

Something I realized as I listened to Mr. Trump give his inspiring speech in Warsaw, praising the greatness of Western Civilization: Europe could not have answered God's call to greatness if we had not endured the chastisement of the Reformation.

But if the Vatican Post issues stamps for Zwingli, Calvin, or Cromwell, I will be scandalized.
Uck! Trent was way too late. But Rome was busy being sacked for some of the time so I suppose there are mitigating circumstances beyond foot dragging. I was quite shocked at how long it took for the church to actually convene Trent. Almost a generation! Luther passed away in the second year of those many years of Trent meetings. How many years did they go? Over 15 years. So almost a half century later they have results. While the reformation went on in terms of effects Rome could not alter the course any more. They were far too late. If they had engaged much earlier there might have been debate, possibly reform, no revolution, and no war. They certainly needed reform.

I like the stamp and the Vatican's attitude.
Luther wasn't remembered for having great political courage. Yes... he supported his wealthy noble benefactors against those revolting peasants. But at least he didn't order troops out to drive out Catholics and kill priests.

If the Council of Trent was only 30 years after Luther's initial rebellion, then that was about right. The Jews wandered for 40 years in the desert. The Babylonian Captivity was nearly 60 years. The Avignon exile was 67 years. Vatican II ended 52 years ago, and we are just now starting to get it right.
And hence the Christian world divided again. long before Trent Luther's writings had long since gone viral at the speed of the Gutenberg printing press throughout Europe. By 1530 (15 years before Trent started) "over 10,000 publications are known, with a total of ten million copies" by Luther and many others. He was a best-selling author! It was the first media revolution. A revolution had already occurred before the beginning of the Council of Trent. It was no longer about averting a revolution but rather about authority. And the enduring Protestant Reformation with all that was to follow very convincingly argues that Rome lost the battle for authority too.

To avert a revolution you have to at least be there on time. A council convened after the Diet of Worms (1521) and before the Peasant uprising (1525) would have been perfect to avert a revolution. After that Rome was sacked.... etc. For the times that's a lightening response to Luther's 95 Theses debate request. Leo X had excommunicated Luther in January 1521. By the 1560's (end of the council of Trent) England was Protestant had been through Henry VIII and at least two more monarchs. Rome had been through Six more Popes! Elizabeth I was on the throne. England wasn't alone, the separation from Rome had spread to many other countries! Rome clearly underestimated Luther and the rate at which it spread.

I think Luther had enormous courage and he is known for this. He took on and won against the most powerful institution of that age. He survived it all too. There is no precedent. What year is it where you are Del?

"...I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."
~ Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, April 1521
Last edited by Rusty on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:40 am

Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:26 am
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:54 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:11 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …
Luther & Melanchthon, to their credit, were not directly responsible for the killing of any Christians. They were down when the movement really was an honest protest for reform.
No Luther was hard-line on peasants in revolt so he encouraged wild massacres of peasants. They were Christians too. He didn't seem to greet the Lutheran revolution as interpreted by peasants very kindly. But in fact the revolution took off without him. The economic order at the time was very unfair to the peasant class.
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
We would not have had the purification of Trent... and the strength of mind and will to defeat the Turks at Lepanto & Vienna, or to withstand the Nazis and the Communists.

Something I realized as I listened to Mr. Trump give his inspiring speech in Warsaw, praising the greatness of Western Civilization: Europe could not have answered God's call to greatness if we had not endured the chastisement of the Reformation.

But if the Vatican Post issues stamps for Zwingli, Calvin, or Cromwell, I will be scandalized.
Uck! Trent was way too late. But Rome was busy being sacked for some of the time so I suppose there are mitigating circumstances beyond foot dragging. I was quite shocked at how long it took for the church to actually convene Trent. Almost a generation! Luther passed away in the second year of those many years of Trent meetings. How many years did they go? Over 15 years. So almost a half century later they have results. While the reformation went on in terms of effects Rome could not alter the course any more. They were far too late. If they had engaged much earlier there might have been debate, possibly reform, no revolution, and no war. They certainly needed reform.

I like the stamp and the Vatican's attitude.
Luther wasn't remembered for having great political courage. Yes... he supported his wealthy noble benefactors against those revolting peasants. But at least he didn't order troops out to drive out Catholics and kill priests.

If the Council of Trent was only 30 years after Luther's initial rebellion, then that was about right. The Jews wandered for 40 years in the desert. The Babylonian Captivity was nearly 60 years. The Avignon exile was 67 years. Vatican II ended 52 years ago, and we are just now starting to get it right.
And hence the Christian world divided again. long before Trent Luther's writings had long since gone viral at the speed of the Gutenberg printing press throughout Europe. By 1530 (15 years before Trent started) "over 10,000 publications are known, with a total of ten million copies" by Luther and many others. He was a best-selling author! It was the first media revolution. A revolution had already occurred before the beginning of the Council of Trent. It was no longer about averting a revolution but rather about authority. And the enduring Protestant Reformation with all that was to follow very convincingly argues that Rome lost the battle for authority too.

To avert a revolution you have to at least be there on time. A council convened after the Diet of Worms (1521) and before the Peasant uprising (1525) would have been perfect to avert a revolution. After that Rome was sacked.... etc. For the times that's a lightening response to Luther's 95 Theses debate request. Leo X had excommunicated Luther in January 1521. By the 1560's (end of the council of Trent) England had been through Henry VIII and at least two more monarchs. Rome had been through Six more Popes! England was Protestant; Elizabeth I was on the throne. England wasn't alone, the separation from Rome had spread to many other countries! Rome clearly underestimated Luther and the rate at which it spread.

I think Luther had enormous courage and he is known for this. He took on and won against the most powerful institution of that age. He survived it all too. There is no precedent. What year is it where you are Del?

"...I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."
~ Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, April 1521
You keep talking like the Church is a political organization. And then you complain because it doesn't act like one.

The Church was powerful, yes. But it was not powerful in that kind of way. Luther survived because he was protected by the political class, and there was no opposition with an army to come after him. And so Luther sided with his protectors against the peasant revolt, in spite of the obvious hypocrisy.
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Rusty
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Re: Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:46 am

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:40 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:26 am
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:54 pm
Rusty wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:11 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:14 pm
+JMJ+

Vatican issues stamp featuring Martin Luther for Reformation anniversary
Image
A Vatican postage stamp featuring Matin Luther and Philip Melanchthon, marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. (Credit: Philatelic and Numismatic Office of Vatican City State.)

In another sign of the Vatican’s positive approach to marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation, the Vatican’s Philatelic and Numismatic Office on Nov. 23 released a postage stamp featuring Martin Luther and one of his closest collaborators.

The stamp features Luther and Philip Melanchthon, considered the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation and one of the founders of Lutheranism. In the image, Luther holds a Bible, and Melanchthon holds a copy of the Augsburg Confession, the primary confession of faith for the Lutheran church.

The two men are kneeling in front of Jesus on the cross.

Melanchthon is the person who publicized the story that Luther nailed his Ninety-five Theses on the door of the All Saints’ Church in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517, thus beginning the Reformation, which split the Church in Western Europe.

The Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations have been jointly marking the occasion since last year. …
Luther & Melanchthon, to their credit, were not directly responsible for the killing of any Christians. They were down when the movement really was an honest protest for reform.
No Luther was hard-line on peasants in revolt so he encouraged wild massacres of peasants. They were Christians too. He didn't seem to greet the Lutheran revolution as interpreted by peasants very kindly. But in fact the revolution took off without him. The economic order at the time was very unfair to the peasant class.
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:53 pm
We would not have had the purification of Trent... and the strength of mind and will to defeat the Turks at Lepanto & Vienna, or to withstand the Nazis and the Communists.

Something I realized as I listened to Mr. Trump give his inspiring speech in Warsaw, praising the greatness of Western Civilization: Europe could not have answered God's call to greatness if we had not endured the chastisement of the Reformation.

But if the Vatican Post issues stamps for Zwingli, Calvin, or Cromwell, I will be scandalized.
Uck! Trent was way too late. But Rome was busy being sacked for some of the time so I suppose there are mitigating circumstances beyond foot dragging. I was quite shocked at how long it took for the church to actually convene Trent. Almost a generation! Luther passed away in the second year of those many years of Trent meetings. How many years did they go? Over 15 years. So almost a half century later they have results. While the reformation went on in terms of effects Rome could not alter the course any more. They were far too late. If they had engaged much earlier there might have been debate, possibly reform, no revolution, and no war. They certainly needed reform.

I like the stamp and the Vatican's attitude.
Luther wasn't remembered for having great political courage. Yes... he supported his wealthy noble benefactors against those revolting peasants. But at least he didn't order troops out to drive out Catholics and kill priests.

If the Council of Trent was only 30 years after Luther's initial rebellion, then that was about right. The Jews wandered for 40 years in the desert. The Babylonian Captivity was nearly 60 years. The Avignon exile was 67 years. Vatican II ended 52 years ago, and we are just now starting to get it right.
And hence the Christian world divided again. long before Trent Luther's writings had long since gone viral at the speed of the Gutenberg printing press throughout Europe. By 1530 (15 years before Trent started) "over 10,000 publications are known, with a total of ten million copies" by Luther and many others. He was a best-selling author! It was the first media revolution. A revolution had already occurred before the beginning of the Council of Trent. It was no longer about averting a revolution but rather about authority. And the enduring Protestant Reformation with all that was to follow very convincingly argues that Rome lost the battle for authority too.

To avert a revolution you have to at least be there on time. A council convened after the Diet of Worms (1521) and before the Peasant uprising (1525) would have been perfect to avert a revolution. After that Rome was sacked.... etc. For the times that's a lightening response to Luther's 95 Theses debate request. Leo X had excommunicated Luther in January 1521. By the 1560's (end of the council of Trent) England had been through Henry VIII and at least two more monarchs. Rome had been through Six more Popes! England was Protestant; Elizabeth I was on the throne. England wasn't alone, the separation from Rome had spread to many other countries! Rome clearly underestimated Luther and the rate at which it spread.

I think Luther had enormous courage and he is known for this. He took on and won against the most powerful institution of that age. He survived it all too. There is no precedent. What year is it where you are Del?

"...I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."
~ Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, April 1521
You keep talking like the Church is a political organization. And then you complain because it doesn't act like one.

The Church was powerful, yes. But it was not powerful in that kind of way. Luther survived because he was protected by the political class, and there was no opposition with an army to come after him. And so Luther sided with his protectors against the peasant revolt, in spite of the obvious hypocrisy.
In that age Del, the church was a political entity. The most powerful and influential in Europe. It is unbelievable that you could think otherwise.
Their worldliness at the time was very serious. Rome behaved like a secular multi-national corporation. Rome was corrupt and no Christian role model. Both of the recent Popes have said this.
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You're out of the dark
You're out of the night
Step into the sun
Step into the light

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