Water Baptism

For those deep thinkers out there.

Moderator: tuttle

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36694
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Del » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:14 pm

John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:Thoughts on water baptism?
My Catholic friends say that there is also a "Baptism by fire," which is different from the "water baptism."

Whatever. The early Christians believed that one could be born physically once, and spiritually once, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Baptism with water symbolized being born spiritually in Christ, parallel to being born physically through the water in the womb.

I am curious to learn more as Jocose's formation continues.
You're ornery!

By "early Christians," I meant the Nicene Creed's statement of faith: "I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

When a Christian was baptized with water, the Holy Spirit did His work of marking this soul as one who has been reborn in Christ.

Every time when an Apostolic Christian dips his hand in the holy water and blesses himself "in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit," it is a memorial and renewal of our baptism. "Self-immersion," if we want to think of it that way. Micveh baths and various Evangelical revivals are other expressions of this memorial.

But there is only one Baptism, per individual Christian, by which he is reborn into Christ.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

User avatar
John-Boy
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
Posts: 32266
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by John-Boy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:26 pm

infidel wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:Thoughts on water baptism?
My Catholic friends say that there is also a "Baptism by fire," which is different from the "water baptism."
is that the same as "baptism by blood"?

and don't forget "baptism by desire"
Yeah, that's the ticket. I was trying to remember what my Catholic friends told me. But it was a while ago.
Praying - coco
Sometimes memes can be helpful as well as humorous - Jocose
Yer mom is kindhearted and well respected in her community - JMG

User avatar
tuttle
Theology Room Mod
Theology Room Mod
Posts: 12533
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by tuttle » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:35 pm

Fainn wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Fainn wrote:I've been baptized 4 times.
Once when I was 7 because I thought it got you into Heaven. The second time was when I was 12 when I really got saved. The third time was washing away a bad relationship. The fourth time was in 2015 when I heard G-d tell me to immerse myself in the pool because it was the sign of a covenant he was making with me. I say go ahead and be baptized as part of the new covenant you will be making with your faith.
Just for sake of context so I might understand your comments better, what denomination or tradition are you? I've never heard of self baptism as a sign of an individual covenant being made with God.
My faith is Messianic Judaism. As far as being baptized for conversion, that needs only to take place once. However, immersions can occur for a variety of other different reasons, such as purification after sex, after childbirth, separation for priesthood, etc. Self-immersion was the norm in Jesus' day and no one was actually held underwater by another person. John the Baptist oversaw the immersions, he didn't actually hold anyone under water. In times past, covenants were made through the shedding of blood. But now Messiah is the final sacrifice so this no longer nessecary. But G-d will still make a sign. In my case, it happened to be through immersion.
Thanks for shedding some light on your comments.
"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
John-Boy
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
Posts: 32266
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by John-Boy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:35 pm

Del wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Jocose wrote:Thoughts on water baptism?
My Catholic friends say that there is also a "Baptism by fire," which is different from the "water baptism."

Whatever. The early Christians believed that one could be born physically once, and spiritually once, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." Baptism with water symbolized being born spiritually in Christ, parallel to being born physically through the water in the womb.

I am curious to learn more as Jocose's formation continues.
You're ornery!

By "early Christians," I meant the Nicene Creed's statement of faith: "I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

When a Christian was baptized with water, the Holy Spirit did His work of marking this soul as one who has been reborn in Christ.

Every time when an Apostolic Christian dips his hand in the holy water and blesses himself "in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit," it is a memorial and renewal of our baptism. "Self-immersion," if we want to think of it that way. Micveh baths and various Evangelical revivals are other expressions of this memorial.

But there is only one Baptism, per individual Christian, by which he is reborn into Christ.
You smell like turkey!

By "early Christians," I meant the Nicene Creed's statement of faith: "I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

When a Christian was baptized with water, it symbolized the Holy Spirit did His work of marking this soul as one who has been reborn in Christ. As John points out in the passage Del used to mean baptism, but actually deals with birth, "Spirit gives birth to spirit." You can't see it. So water baptism is symbolic of something we can't see.

Every time when an Apostolic Christian dips his hand in the holy water and blesses himself "in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit," it is a memorial and renewal of our baptism.

But there is only one Baptism, per individual Christian, by which he is reborn into Christ.
Praying - coco
Sometimes memes can be helpful as well as humorous - Jocose
Yer mom is kindhearted and well respected in her community - JMG

User avatar
hugodrax
All Around Nice Guy
All Around Nice Guy
Posts: 16268
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by hugodrax » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:31 pm

Who wants a Tom and Jerry?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

User avatar
Fainn
I've attained the highest rank so far
I've attained the highest rank so far
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:48 pm

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Fainn » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:57 pm

hugodrax wrote:Who wants a Tom and Jerry?
It has been a while since I had one. Does it contain cinnamon?
I'm bigger than the Beatles - Jesus

User avatar
John-Boy
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
Posts: 32266
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by John-Boy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:02 pm

Fainn wrote:
hugodrax wrote:Who wants a Tom and Jerry?
It has been a while since I had one. Does it contain cinnamon?
I think he's refering to the twin GRACE satellites (The Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment (GRACE), a joint mission of NASA and the German Aerospace Center, has been making detailed measurements of Earth's gravity field anomalies since its launch in March 2002).
Image
Praying - coco
Sometimes memes can be helpful as well as humorous - Jocose
Yer mom is kindhearted and well respected in her community - JMG

User avatar
infidel
kthxbai
kthxbai
Posts: 6483
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:00 pm

Re: Water Baptism

Post by infidel » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:04 pm

This "one and done" view of baptism strikes me as a bit on the simplistic side, and I think is a shortcoming of the Protestant mindset along with such things as "Once Save Always Saved". The non-denoms I know have essentially stripped baptism of everything spiritual, reducing it to a simple public statement, a disenchanted "re-enactment" of sorts of some alleged internal event which holds the true power.
Inadvertently emboldening the cause of naïve Evolutionism since 2016.

"Who the hell ponders placentas? Dude, you're a freak of nature." - DepartedLight

"One man's saint is another man's infidel." - hugodrax

"Total. Freaking. Win." - Skip

User avatar
jruegg
Mr. Eggs
Mr. Eggs
Posts: 25541
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Kingdom of God (Mk 1:15)
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by jruegg » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:57 pm

How many times can you be circumcised?
Image

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33704
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by UncleBob » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:10 pm

jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
jruegg
Mr. Eggs
Mr. Eggs
Posts: 25541
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Kingdom of God (Mk 1:15)
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by jruegg » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm

UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
Image

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33704
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by UncleBob » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:16 pm

jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Roadmaster
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12921
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Missouri The Show-me State

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Roadmaster » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:56 pm

UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Oh Mighty Cobfather, return and smite the interlopers.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33704
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by UncleBob » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:02 pm

Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Roadmaster
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12921
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Missouri The Show-me State

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Roadmaster » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:26 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
Oh Mighty Cobfather, return and smite the interlopers.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33704
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by UncleBob » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:43 pm

Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
I didn't see you baptized but that doesn't really matter, does it? The pastor witnesses the baptism and everyone else that person interacts with will hopefully know they are "different". Plus one has to proclaim their faith when they join a UMC local church.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Rusty
In Memoriam
Posts: 25059
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Beelzebub's Rare Tobacco Emporium

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Rusty » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:45 pm

Fainn wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Fainn wrote:I've been baptized 4 times.
Once when I was 7 because I thought it got you into Heaven. The second time was when I was 12 when I really got saved. The third time was washing away a bad relationship. The fourth time was in 2015 when I heard G-d tell me to immerse myself in the pool because it was the sign of a covenant he was making with me. I say go ahead and be baptized as part of the new covenant you will be making with your faith.
Just for sake of context so I might understand your comments better, what denomination or tradition are you? I've never heard of self baptism as a sign of an individual covenant being made with God.
My faith is Messianic Judaism. As far as being baptized for conversion, that needs only to take place once. However, immersions can occur for a variety of other different reasons, such as purification after sex, after childbirth, separation for priesthood, etc. Self-immersion was the norm in Jesus' day and no one was actually held underwater by another person. John the Baptist oversaw the immersions, he didn't actually hold anyone under water. In times past, covenants were made through the shedding of blood. But now Messiah is the final sacrifice so this no longer nessecary. But G-d will still make a sign. In my case, it happened to be through immersion.
Holy smokes. That's a Mikvah in Judaism. And he's right but I think baptism is different. AFAIK, John the Baptist didn't operate a public Mikvah, but I would guess that baptism does originate with that practice.

Tuttle's question about tradition was bang on.

So, Fainn, tell us how you ended up with the Jews for Jesus.
You're out of the woods
You're out of the dark
You're out of the night
Step into the sun
Step into the light

User avatar
Roadmaster
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 12921
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: Missouri The Show-me State

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Roadmaster » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:54 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
I didn't see you baptized but that doesn't really matter, does it? The pastor witnesses the baptism and everyone else that person interacts with will hopefully know they are "different". Plus one has to proclaim their faith when they join a UMC local church.
You could have if you wanted to, it was at Immanuel Baptist Church 1963 but I see your point.
Oh Mighty Cobfather, return and smite the interlopers.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33704
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by UncleBob » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:17 pm

Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
I didn't see you baptized but that doesn't really matter, does it? The pastor witnesses the baptism and everyone else that person interacts with will hopefully know they are "different". Plus one has to proclaim their faith when they join a UMC local church.
You could have if you wanted to, it was at Immanuel Baptist Church 1963 but I see your point.
And I was baptized in the Niangua River not too far from the tick farm.
:chili:
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Joshoowah
Hermeneutic of suspicion
Hermeneutic of suspicion
Posts: 4663
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: Nairobi, Kenya; formerly Wilmore, KY; Formerly Athens, AL
Contact:

Re: Water Baptism

Post by Joshoowah » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:56 pm

Rusty wrote:
Fainn wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Fainn wrote:I've been baptized 4 times.
Once when I was 7 because I thought it got you into Heaven. The second time was when I was 12 when I really got saved. The third time was washing away a bad relationship. The fourth time was in 2015 when I heard G-d tell me to immerse myself in the pool because it was the sign of a covenant he was making with me. I say go ahead and be baptized as part of the new covenant you will be making with your faith.
Just for sake of context so I might understand your comments better, what denomination or tradition are you? I've never heard of self baptism as a sign of an individual covenant being made with God.
My faith is Messianic Judaism. As far as being baptized for conversion, that needs only to take place once. However, immersions can occur for a variety of other different reasons, such as purification after sex, after childbirth, separation for priesthood, etc. Self-immersion was the norm in Jesus' day and no one was actually held underwater by another person. John the Baptist oversaw the immersions, he didn't actually hold anyone under water. In times past, covenants were made through the shedding of blood. But now Messiah is the final sacrifice so this no longer nessecary. But G-d will still make a sign. In my case, it happened to be through immersion.
Holy smokes. That's a Mikvah in Judaism. And he's right but I think baptism is different. AFAIK, John the Baptist didn't operate a public Mikvah, but I would guess that baptism does originate with that practice.

Tuttle's question about tradition was bang on.

So, Fainn, tell us how you ended up with the Jews for Jesus.
The two are, indeed, different.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

ImageImage

Post Reply