Water Baptism

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Fainn » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:02 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Fainn wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Fainn wrote:I've been baptized 4 times.
Once when I was 7 because I thought it got you into Heaven. The second time was when I was 12 when I really got saved. The third time was washing away a bad relationship. The fourth time was in 2015 when I heard G-d tell me to immerse myself in the pool because it was the sign of a covenant he was making with me. I say go ahead and be baptized as part of the new covenant you will be making with your faith.
Just for sake of context so I might understand your comments better, what denomination or tradition are you? I've never heard of self baptism as a sign of an individual covenant being made with God.
My faith is Messianic Judaism. As far as being baptized for conversion, that needs only to take place once. However, immersions can occur for a variety of other different reasons, such as purification after sex, after childbirth, separation for priesthood, etc. Self-immersion was the norm in Jesus' day and no one was actually held underwater by another person. John the Baptist oversaw the immersions, he didn't actually hold anyone under water. In times past, covenants were made through the shedding of blood. But now Messiah is the final sacrifice so this no longer nessecary. But G-d will still make a sign. In my case, it happened to be through immersion.
Holy smokes. That's a Mikvah in Judaism. And he's right but I think baptism is different. AFAIK, John the Baptist didn't operate a public Mikvah, but I would guess that baptism does originate with that practice.

Tuttle's question about tradition was bang on.

So, Fainn, tell us how you ended up with the Jews for Jesus.
The two are, indeed, different.
True. Jews for Jesus is specifically refers to an organization whereas Messianic Judaism refers to religous beliefs. Things in the Bible didn't make sense to me, such as why Jesus was crucified at Passover rather than the Day of Atonement. I celebrated my first Passover in 2010 and realized as G-d freed the Hebrews at the first Passover, Jesus came to free us from sin at the Last Supper. He was also the Passover Lamb and the typology wouldn't have worked with the scapegoat sacrifices at the day of Atonement. It was revealed to me during this time other laws seemed to be based on events in Genesis, such as the prohibition against marrying two sisters as Jacob did. It was like my eyes were opened and I saw a whole new layer of the Gospels I had never seen before. This continues each time I celebrate the feasts or particpate in the laws of the Torah. I have also experienced blessings obeying seemingly obscure laws.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by wosbald » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:15 am

+JMJ+
Fainn wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:
Rusty wrote:Holy smokes. That's a Mikvah in Judaism. And he's right but I think baptism is different. AFAIK, John the Baptist didn't operate a public Mikvah, but I would guess that baptism does originate with that practice.

Tuttle's question about tradition was bang on.

So, Fainn, tell us how you ended up with the Jews for Jesus.
The two are, indeed, different.
True. Jews for Jesus is specifically refers to an organization whereas Messianic Judaism refers to religous beliefs. …
I think that Josh may be referring to a Mikvah and Baptism being, "indeed, different".




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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Cleon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:54 am

This thread needs a poll.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by wosbald » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:00 am

+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:This thread needs a poll.
Or maybe a menu with customizable baptismal options. You pick one from Column A and two from Column B.




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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Cleon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:08 am

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:This thread needs a poll.
Or maybe a menu with customizable baptismal options. You pick one from Column A and two from Column B.
Oooh. More choice is always better.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by UncleBob » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:20 am

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:This thread needs a poll.
Or maybe a menu with customizable baptismal options. You pick one from Column A and two from Column B.
So much better to just be told, right?
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by John-Boy » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:27 am

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:This thread needs a poll.
Or maybe a menu with customizable baptismal options. You pick one from Column A and two from Column B.
You only get to select pictures to represent what you've already eaten. :dancingpie:
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by hugodrax » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:49 am

UncleBob wrote:
wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:This thread needs a poll.
Or maybe a menu with customizable baptismal options. You pick one from Column A and two from Column B.
So much better to just be told, right?
Of course. Look at you people. :D
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by jruegg » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:47 pm

Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
Some folks are self-conscious, especially when soaking wet clothes/robes tend to cling.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Rusty » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:22 pm

Fainn wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Fainn wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Fainn wrote:I've been baptized 4 times.
Once when I was 7 because I thought it got you into Heaven. The second time was when I was 12 when I really got saved. The third time was washing away a bad relationship. The fourth time was in 2015 when I heard G-d tell me to immerse myself in the pool because it was the sign of a covenant he was making with me. I say go ahead and be baptized as part of the new covenant you will be making with your faith.
Just for sake of context so I might understand your comments better, what denomination or tradition are you? I've never heard of self baptism as a sign of an individual covenant being made with God.
My faith is Messianic Judaism. As far as being baptized for conversion, that needs only to take place once. However, immersions can occur for a variety of other different reasons, such as purification after sex, after childbirth, separation for priesthood, etc. Self-immersion was the norm in Jesus' day and no one was actually held underwater by another person. John the Baptist oversaw the immersions, he didn't actually hold anyone under water. In times past, covenants were made through the shedding of blood. But now Messiah is the final sacrifice so this no longer nessecary. But G-d will still make a sign. In my case, it happened to be through immersion.
Holy smokes. That's a Mikvah in Judaism. And he's right but I think baptism is different. AFAIK, John the Baptist didn't operate a public Mikvah, but I would guess that baptism does originate with that practice.

Tuttle's question about tradition was bang on.

So, Fainn, tell us how you ended up with the Jews for Jesus.
The two are, indeed, different.
True. Jews for Jesus is specifically refers to an organization whereas Messianic Judaism refers to religous beliefs. Things in the Bible didn't make sense to me, such as why Jesus was crucified at Passover rather than the Day of Atonement. I celebrated my first Passover in 2010 and realized as G-d freed the Hebrews at the first Passover, Jesus came to free us from sin at the Last Supper. He was also the Passover Lamb and the typology wouldn't have worked with the scapegoat sacrifices at the day of Atonement. It was revealed to me during this time other laws seemed to be based on events in Genesis, such as the prohibition against marrying two sisters as Jacob did. It was like my eyes were opened and I saw a whole new layer of the Gospels I had never seen before. This continues each time I celebrate the feasts or particpate in the laws of the Torah. I have also experienced blessings obeying seemingly obscure laws.
Interesting. I should have remembered this or guessed better, whatever, after the fermented tobacco thing.
Of course now you don't have to worry about the 0 mod 4 thang, because Satan ain't home. It's HaSatan; life's little challenges. Like when your mikvah pool freezes over in the winter. The idea of Satan, ie as the Devil, is just more Christian polytheistic nonsense. Not for Jews. Which some think is surprising, given their history. But I'm not sure where the Messianic Jews might be on this. Care to elaborate? You're a mix of Christian and Jewish so that both sides disown you, right?
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Roadmaster » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:33 pm

jruegg wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
Some folks are self-conscious, especially when soaking wet clothes/robes tend to cling.
Had not considered that.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Rusty » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:44 pm

Roadmaster wrote:
jruegg wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jruegg wrote:How many times can you be circumcised?
Multiple times. In fact, there is a surgical technique that is at least 2500 years old that allows someone to have a facsimile of the foreskin recreated.
Gross.


But you get what I'm sayin', right?
I hear you. Personally, though, I don't see the harm of getting baptized multiple times as long as some religious group doesn't insist on it. It is as much of a personal ritual as it is a public ritual. In the UMC, one can even elect to have a private baptism.
The UMC to their credit will also do a baptist style head under water if requested. Or at least they used to.
Yes you can choose immersion, pouring, or sprinkling. In addition, you can choose public or private and infant or believer baptism.
Interesting, don't know why anyone would choose 'private' as we are commanded to make a public profession of faith.
Some folks are self-conscious, especially when soaking wet clothes/robes tend to cling.
Had not considered that.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Sir Moose » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:58 pm

In the early church it was often done sans clothing. From The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, which was written around 215AD (emphasis added):
Hippolytus wrote: 21 1At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Rusty » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:00 pm

Sir Moose wrote:In the early church it was often done sans clothing. From The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, which was written around 215AD (emphasis added):
Hippolytus wrote: 21 1At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.
BTW you forgot one.
So what is the effect on baptism when one brings or wears foreign objects - like clothes etc?
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by hugodrax » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Rusty wrote:
Sir Moose wrote:In the early church it was often done sans clothing. From The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, which was written around 215AD (emphasis added):
Hippolytus wrote: 21 1At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.
BTW you forgot one.
So what is the effect on baptism when one brings or wears foreign objects - like clothes etc?
Also, why don't you all want to behave as the early Christians did on this one?
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Ether » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:17 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Sir Moose wrote:In the early church it was often done sans clothing. From The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, which was written around 215AD (emphasis added):
Hippolytus wrote: 21 1At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.
BTW you forgot one.
So what is the effect on baptism when one brings or wears foreign objects - like clothes etc?
Also, why don't you all want to behave as the early Christians did on this one?
This, amongst others, is a reason why we had female deacons in early christianity.

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Re: Water Baptism

Post by hugodrax » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:25 pm

Ether wrote:
hugodrax wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Sir Moose wrote:In the early church it was often done sans clothing. From The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, which was written around 215AD (emphasis added):
Hippolytus wrote: 21 1At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.
BTW you forgot one.
So what is the effect on baptism when one brings or wears foreign objects - like clothes etc?
Also, why don't you all want to behave as the early Christians did on this one?
This, amongst others, is a reason why we had female deacons in early christianity.
Very interesting--I definitely didn't know that.
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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Ether » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:41 pm

Jocose wrote:Thoughts on water baptism?

I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit around ten years ago maybe, in a non Orthodox Church.

I've heard Thru the grapevine that I may be baptized again in the Orthodox Church eventually after my prospect, er, um, after the traditional 1-3 year catechumen period, not necessarily because my original baptism is not valid but rather the fullness of my faith might be experienced.

Nothing wrong with this in my mind really but I was also thinking what's the point of another baptism, other than being a part of how the ancient church has taught.
In catholic tradition, under certain circumstances, laymen are called to baptise. Maybe the person who baptized you is considered a layman in the eyes of orthodoxy. If you have recieved baptism in any other way than in a celebration of church, led by a priest or a deacon, you are called to attend this celebration as an already baptized guy. The priest or deacon will pray for and with you, but never ever will you be baptised again. The rite of baptism itself will then be not a part of this celebration, but everything else. As soon as anybody (doesn't even have to be baptised, doesn't even have to be christian) wants to do what the church does in baptising you, using the sign of water and speaking the biblical words, you are baptised once and for all.

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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Ether » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:13 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Ether wrote:
hugodrax wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Sir Moose wrote:In the early church it was often done sans clothing. From The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, which was written around 215AD (emphasis added):
Hippolytus wrote: 21 1At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water. 2When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. 3Then they shall take off all their clothes. 4The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. 5After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water.
BTW you forgot one.
So what is the effect on baptism when one brings or wears foreign objects - like clothes etc?
Also, why don't you all want to behave as the early Christians did on this one?
This, amongst others, is a reason why we had female deacons in early christianity.
Very interesting--I definitely didn't know that.
We just don't know if they were sacramentally ordained or if it was just a "job" for them.

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Re: Water Baptism

Post by Fainn » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:38 am

Rusty wrote:
Fainn wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Fainn wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Fainn wrote:I've been baptized 4 times.
Once when I was 7 because I thought it got you into Heaven. The second time was when I was 12 when I really got saved. The third time was washing away a bad relationship. The fourth time was in 2015 when I heard G-d tell me to immerse myself in the pool because it was the sign of a covenant he was making with me. I say go ahead and be baptized as part of the new covenant you will be making with your faith.
Just for sake of context so I might understand your comments better, what denomination or tradition are you? I've never heard of self baptism as a sign of an individual covenant being made with God.
My faith is Messianic Judaism. As far as being baptized for conversion, that needs only to take place once. However, immersions can occur for a variety of other different reasons, such as purification after sex, after childbirth, separation for priesthood, etc. Self-immersion was the norm in Jesus' day and no one was actually held underwater by another person. John the Baptist oversaw the immersions, he didn't actually hold anyone under water. In times past, covenants were made through the shedding of blood. But now Messiah is the final sacrifice so this no longer nessecary. But G-d will still make a sign. In my case, it happened to be through immersion.
Holy smokes. That's a Mikvah in Judaism. And he's right but I think baptism is different. AFAIK, John the Baptist didn't operate a public Mikvah, but I would guess that baptism does originate with that practice.

Tuttle's question about tradition was bang on.

So, Fainn, tell us how you ended up with the Jews for Jesus.
The two are, indeed, different.
True. Jews for Jesus is specifically refers to an organization whereas Messianic Judaism refers to religous beliefs. Things in the Bible didn't make sense to me, such as why Jesus was crucified at Passover rather than the Day of Atonement. I celebrated my first Passover in 2010 and realized as G-d freed the Hebrews at the first Passover, Jesus came to free us from sin at the Last Supper. He was also the Passover Lamb and the typology wouldn't have worked with the scapegoat sacrifices at the day of Atonement. It was revealed to me during this time other laws seemed to be based on events in Genesis, such as the prohibition against marrying two sisters as Jacob did. It was like my eyes were opened and I saw a whole new layer of the Gospels I had never seen before. This continues each time I celebrate the feasts or particpate in the laws of the Torah. I have also experienced blessings obeying seemingly obscure laws.
Interesting. I should have remembered this or guessed better, whatever, after the fermented tobacco thing.
Of course now you don't have to worry about the 0 mod 4 thang, because Satan ain't home. It's HaSatan; life's little challenges. Like when your mikvah pool freezes over in the winter. The idea of Satan, ie as the Devil, is just more Christian polytheistic nonsense. Not for Jews. Which some think is surprising, given their history. But I'm not sure where the Messianic Jews might be on this. Care to elaborate? You're a mix of Christian and Jewish so that both sides disown you, right?
We believe haSatan is a corporate evil because Jesus conversed with him during the temptation during the wilderness. In mainstream Judaism, both haSatan and G-d are seen as impersonal forces, whereas the concept of haSatan may actually be a metaphor not to be taken literally. Only the Conservative Jews disown us as a whole. Reform Jews can go either way. Orthodox Jews are at least open to discusssion, but not the ones who attend Chabad synagogues as they believe the messiah died in 1997 and await his return.
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