The Explanation

For those deep thinkers out there.

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infidel
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Re: The Explanation

Post by infidel » Fri May 19, 2017 4:23 pm

Onyx wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:20 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:39 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:01 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:39 am
Del wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am
The problem is not that the Bible lacks for an adequate answer to the Problem of Suffering. It is not explicitly printed in one chapter or book, but is a synthetic thread that runs through the whole book.
Del has it right, here.
You know, I have often wondered how I could ever take Del's average post about non Catholics and counter all the wrong assumptions he makes. I see that you figured out a better and much easier way, by just quoting the right part if there is one. Even if he didn't mean to get it right! I love it. :lol:
Affirming what is true and good is like watering a garden.
Holy crap! I think I just reached nirvana by reading that post.
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Onyx
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Re: The Explanation

Post by Onyx » Fri May 19, 2017 5:58 pm

Del wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:54 pm
Rusty wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 3:14 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 2:56 pm
Rusty wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 2:50 pm
Anytime you want The Explanation just ask any Atheist. They know and it's consistent with the way the world appears to be.

One of the nice attributes about a properly framed answer is that we should be encouraged to rely upon each other. We are not exempt from tragedy, protected, or otherwise favoured at all. The only ones looking out for us are others like us.
Yeah, been there. The difference is hope.
Atheists don't lack hope. There is a significant difference in expectation, between the two groups, and esp. the understanding of the operative mechanics behind virtually everything. It's also not surprising where the major points of friction and difference are eg Biological Evolution. Nobody argues about electronics or material science. Yet none of the developments, that are neutral, actually dovetail with the supernatural pov.
Christianity invented the moral obligation to sacrifice one's own wealth and comfort for the benefit of others. This is the essence of "Love your neighbor."

A lot of our current suffering comes from the loss of this Christian notion of personal responsibility for the care of others. When education, charity, and healthcare became "the government's job," we quit doing it. It may look like we have schools, hospitals, and welfare programs... But they don't work well anymore. Poverty, ignorance, and ill-health are growing worse under the secular utopia.
So wrong. Not invented by Christianity at all. Altruistic behaviour long predates Christianity. It's found in all human cultures, and even in some of the other social animals. It's in the writings of Confucius. Even the quote, "love your neighbor" is taken from the OT.

Nevertheless, this is Christianity and it is beautiful. It's just your insistence on misrepresenting everything outside of your view of Christianity which is ugly. Some of us see the government as a mechanism through which we can coordinate to share the duty of care for others. It's perfectly valid to point to shortcomings of this approach, but it's ignorant to insist that we are refusing to care simply because it's outside your brand of Christianity.
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Re: The Explanation

Post by Rusty » Fri May 19, 2017 6:06 pm

Onyx wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 5:58 pm
Del wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:54 pm
Rusty wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 3:14 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 2:56 pm
Rusty wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 2:50 pm
Anytime you want The Explanation just ask any Atheist. They know and it's consistent with the way the world appears to be.

One of the nice attributes about a properly framed answer is that we should be encouraged to rely upon each other. We are not exempt from tragedy, protected, or otherwise favoured at all. The only ones looking out for us are others like us.
Yeah, been there. The difference is hope.
Atheists don't lack hope. There is a significant difference in expectation, between the two groups, and esp. the understanding of the operative mechanics behind virtually everything. It's also not surprising where the major points of friction and difference are eg Biological Evolution. Nobody argues about electronics or material science. Yet none of the developments, that are neutral, actually dovetail with the supernatural pov.
Christianity invented the moral obligation to sacrifice one's own wealth and comfort for the benefit of others. This is the essence of "Love your neighbor."

A lot of our current suffering comes from the loss of this Christian notion of personal responsibility for the care of others. When education, charity, and healthcare became "the government's job," we quit doing it. It may look like we have schools, hospitals, and welfare programs... But they don't work well anymore. Poverty, ignorance, and ill-health are growing worse under the secular utopia.
So wrong. Not invented by Christianity at all. Altruistic behaviour long predates Christianity. It's found in all human cultures, and even in some of the other social animals. It's in the writings of Confucius. Even the quote, "love your neighbor" is taken from the OT.

Nevertheless, this is Christianity and it is beautiful. It's just your insistence on misrepresenting everything outside of your view of Christianity which is ugly. Some of us see the government as a mechanism through which we can coordinate to share the duty of care for others. It's perfectly valid to point to shortcomings of this approach, but it's ignorant to insist that we are refusing to care simply because it's outside your brand of Christianity.
Be careful. If you establish that responsibility and altruism is also an attribute of humans then the Christians may claim to have invented or created humans as they are. I think it helps to remember that for 99% of the duration for which our species has existed Christianity did not exist so they're almost certainly wrong about their claims.

"... government of the people, for the people and by the people.." It's explicitly recognized and yet they refuse to see it.
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Re: The Explanation

Post by DepartedLight » Fri May 19, 2017 9:44 pm

Del wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:57 am
FWIW.

Buddhism has already provided The Explanation.

Buddhists aren't really known for beating people over the head with their sacred texts.
Buddhism starts from the same point as Christianity: Suffering is caused by desiring/wanting more stuff all the time.
http://www.school-for-champions.com/rel ... R8SbFKZN-U
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires

The cause of suffering is called samudaya or tanha. It is the desire to have and control things, such as craving of sensual pleasures. For example, if you desire fame and fortune, you will surely suffer disappointment and perhaps even cause suffering for others.

Attachment to material things creates suffering because attachments are transient and loss is inevitable. Thus suffering will necessarily follow.
Most great religions and ancient philosophies also know this truth.
==========================

The point of the OP is strangely twisted.

The problem is not that the Bible lacks for an adequate answer to the Problem of Suffering. It is not explicitly printed in one chapter or book, but is a synthetic thread that runs through the whole book.

The problem is that some Bible Christians think that Bible verses are the answer to every problem, and they do great damage with their Bible-bashing. If they had a single verse for The Explanation, they would bash with that too.

Example: There is a group of Biblers from 45 minutes away who are devoted pro-lifers. They come once a week to the Planned Parenthood in Madison, and shout verses and curses at people entering the clinic (which only does abortions; no healthcare services).

The regular vigil keepers (nearly all of us are Catholic) cringe when they come. We operate a loving Care Center across the street, support without preaching.

People only go to Planned Parenthood because they are suffering and afraid. The Christian answer is to offer them a more loving and healthful choice, rather than asking them to pay for the killing of a child.
Yo Delster, my main man from cheese land, i need no schooling here. I spent 15 years studying eastern thought from Hinduism to Ming era Zen Buddhism. Taoism's acceptance of Buddhist thought created Ch'an. The ancient Zen of China.

Thus the Koan: Why did Bodhidarma walk north?

Taoist monks spoke Chinesse. When Bodhidarma met them, they had no verbal communication, Bodhidarma being from India and all.

Imagine the time, patience, and love it took for the two to understand each other. The classic rough brush circle in eastern art reflects this event, as that was the symbol that lead to understanding between two people new to understanding together outside conventional means. What a horrid sentence that was

No wiki copy paste. This is from the hip.
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Re: The Explanation

Post by Goose55 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:01 pm

Onyx wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:20 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:39 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:01 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:39 am
Del wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am
The problem is not that the Bible lacks for an adequate answer to the Problem of Suffering. It is not explicitly printed in one chapter or book, but is a synthetic thread that runs through the whole book.
Del has it right, here.
You know, I have often wondered how I could ever take Del's average post about non Catholics and counter all the wrong assumptions he makes. I see that you figured out a better and much easier way, by just quoting the right part if there is one. Even if he didn't mean to get it right! I love it. :lol:
Affirming what is true and good is like watering a garden.
Holy crap! I think I just reached nirvana by reading that post.
I am glad that it had that effect.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: The Explanation

Post by DepartedLight » Fri May 19, 2017 10:05 pm

Crickey. Del's the new Allen Watts?

The Zombie Apocalypse is upon us.
DL Jake

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Re: The Explanation

Post by Del » Sat May 20, 2017 7:22 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:44 pm
Del wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:57 am
FWIW.

Buddhism has already provided The Explanation.

Buddhists aren't really known for beating people over the head with their sacred texts.
Buddhism starts from the same point as Christianity: Suffering is caused by desiring/wanting more stuff all the time.
http://www.school-for-champions.com/rel ... R8SbFKZN-U
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires

The cause of suffering is called samudaya or tanha. It is the desire to have and control things, such as craving of sensual pleasures. For example, if you desire fame and fortune, you will surely suffer disappointment and perhaps even cause suffering for others.

Attachment to material things creates suffering because attachments are transient and loss is inevitable. Thus suffering will necessarily follow.
Most great religions and ancient philosophies also know this truth.
==========================

The point of the OP is strangely twisted.

The problem is not that the Bible lacks for an adequate answer to the Problem of Suffering. It is not explicitly printed in one chapter or book, but is a synthetic thread that runs through the whole book.

The problem is that some Bible Christians think that Bible verses are the answer to every problem, and they do great damage with their Bible-bashing. If they had a single verse for The Explanation, they would bash with that too.

Example: There is a group of Biblers from 45 minutes away who are devoted pro-lifers. They come once a week to the Planned Parenthood in Madison, and shout verses and curses at people entering the clinic (which only does abortions; no healthcare services).

The regular vigil keepers (nearly all of us are Catholic) cringe when they come. We operate a loving Care Center across the street, support without preaching.

People only go to Planned Parenthood because they are suffering and afraid. The Christian answer is to offer them a more loving and healthful choice, rather than asking them to pay for the killing of a child.
Yo Delster, my main man from cheese land, i need no schooling here. I spent 15 years studying eastern thought from Hinduism to Ming era Zen Buddhism. Taoism's acceptance of Buddhist thought created Ch'an. The ancient Zen of China.

Thus the Koan: Why did Bodhidarma walk north?

Taoist monks spoke Chinesse. When Bodhidarma met them, they had no verbal communication, Bodhidarma being from India and all.

Imagine the time, patience, and love it took for the two to understand each other. The classic rough brush circle in eastern art reflects this event, as that was the symbol that lead to understanding between two people new to understanding together outside conventional means. What a horrid sentence that was

No wiki copy paste. This is from the hip.
Neat! I do not have familiarity with Eastern religions beyond a survey course in "World Religions" during college.

Charity and care for neighbor are ancient wisdom in many cultures, philosophies, and religions.

Moses & Mohammed made such charity part of their Law.

The unique contribution of Christianity is that charity became a moral imperative -- something we have to do, even if no one is watching, with eternal consequences if we neglect our duty to love our neighbors.

Marx and other socialists try to use government to enforce communal charity.

The Christian system was highly effective. We invented hospitals, healthcare for the poor, common education for all, universities, charitable societies, and so on.

No other system has been as successful as Christianity in these good works for the common good. Without Christian tradition, our secular governments would not even think that they should provide these things.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: The Explanation

Post by Thunktank » Sat May 20, 2017 7:38 pm

Oh, I get it now! Successful sharing is giving twenty guys on CPS sophistical opinions over and over again without losing your enthusiasm. I can do that!
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Re: The Explanation

Post by DepartedLight » Sun May 21, 2017 7:51 am

Thunktank wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 7:38 pm
Oh, I get it now! Successful sharing is giving twenty guys on CPS sophistical opinions over and over again without losing your enthusiasm. I can do that!
So long as it's about tacos, cheese, whiskey, Carter Hall, or on how horrid Baltimore is, then me too.
DL Jake

you win the sneakiness award. » Bloodhound

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DepartedLight
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Re: The Explanation

Post by DepartedLight » Sun May 21, 2017 7:52 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 7:51 am
Thunktank wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 7:38 pm
Oh, I get it now! Successful sharing is giving twenty guys on CPS sophistical opinions over and over again without losing your enthusiasm. I can do that!
So long as it's about tacos, cheese, whiskey, Carter Hall, or on how horrid Baltimore is, then me too.
OH! And bacon. Of course.
DL Jake

you win the sneakiness award. » Bloodhound

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Goose55
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Re: The Explanation

Post by Goose55 » Sun May 21, 2017 10:30 am

Del wrote:
Sat May 20, 2017 7:22 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:44 pm
Del wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 7:57 am
FWIW.

Buddhism has already provided The Explanation.

Buddhists aren't really known for beating people over the head with their sacred texts.
Buddhism starts from the same point as Christianity: Suffering is caused by desiring/wanting more stuff all the time.
http://www.school-for-champions.com/rel ... R8SbFKZN-U
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires

The cause of suffering is called samudaya or tanha. It is the desire to have and control things, such as craving of sensual pleasures. For example, if you desire fame and fortune, you will surely suffer disappointment and perhaps even cause suffering for others.

Attachment to material things creates suffering because attachments are transient and loss is inevitable. Thus suffering will necessarily follow.
Most great religions and ancient philosophies also know this truth.
==========================

The point of the OP is strangely twisted.

The problem is not that the Bible lacks for an adequate answer to the Problem of Suffering. It is not explicitly printed in one chapter or book, but is a synthetic thread that runs through the whole book.

The problem is that some Bible Christians think that Bible verses are the answer to every problem, and they do great damage with their Bible-bashing. If they had a single verse for The Explanation, they would bash with that too.

Example: There is a group of Biblers from 45 minutes away who are devoted pro-lifers. They come once a week to the Planned Parenthood in Madison, and shout verses and curses at people entering the clinic (which only does abortions; no healthcare services).

The regular vigil keepers (nearly all of us are Catholic) cringe when they come. We operate a loving Care Center across the street, support without preaching.

People only go to Planned Parenthood because they are suffering and afraid. The Christian answer is to offer them a more loving and healthful choice, rather than asking them to pay for the killing of a child.
Yo Delster, my main man from cheese land, i need no schooling here. I spent 15 years studying eastern thought from Hinduism to Ming era Zen Buddhism. Taoism's acceptance of Buddhist thought created Ch'an. The ancient Zen of China.

Thus the Koan: Why did Bodhidarma walk north?

Taoist monks spoke Chinesse. When Bodhidarma met them, they had no verbal communication, Bodhidarma being from India and all.

Imagine the time, patience, and love it took for the two to understand each other. The classic rough brush circle in eastern art reflects this event, as that was the symbol that lead to understanding between two people new to understanding together outside conventional means. What a horrid sentence that was

No wiki copy paste. This is from the hip.
Neat! I do not have familiarity with Eastern religions beyond a survey course in "World Religions" during college.

Charity and care for neighbor are ancient wisdom in many cultures, philosophies, and religions.

Moses & Mohammed made such charity part of their Law.

The unique contribution of Christianity is that charity became a moral imperative -- something we have to do, even if no one is watching, with eternal consequences if we neglect our duty to love our neighbors.

Marx and other socialists try to use government to enforce communal charity.

The Christian system was highly effective. We invented hospitals, healthcare for the poor, common education for all, universities, charitable societies, and so on.

No other system has been as successful as Christianity in these good works for the common good. Without Christian tradition, our secular governments would not even think that they should provide these things.
Your post reminded me of Jesus' parable about the good Samaritan. Many hospitals to his day, still bear the name Good Samaritan. But health care has also become very big business, and in some instances, very profitable.

Why our world is so broken and dangerous, and for so long a time, I think maybe the best answer is "I don't know."

A Chinese philosopher, Lao Tzu once said "The farther I go, the less I know." And I think this expresses true humility.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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