Soteriology

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Cleon
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Cleon » Wed May 31, 2017 7:21 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 6:49 am
Preacher Pipes,

Welcome to the forum. Have you met Jocose? He's a real nice guy, but there are things you need to know about him.

You see, up until roughly 25 minutes ago, old Jo over there was a Protestant. A Rome-hating enemy of tradition in all its forms. Now that he's the newest member of some incredibly hard up Orthodox church (but I repeat myself), he's become a Rome-hating enemy of any tradition different than the one he picked up twenty-five minutes ago.

He's too new to realize that the great national sport of the Orthodox bishops is excommunication of other Orthodox bishops in long standing arguments about the Tripartite nature of God and the indivisibility of the two drachmas and four buttons found in the collection plate on the feast day of St Unpronouncable the Unwashed, and he wouldn't call it schism even if somebody explained it to him using really simple words. He doesn't realize there are Orthodox churches in full communion with Rome. Hell, he doesn't understand what communion is, yet.

Whenever I hear an Orthodox speaking of other sects of Christianity, particularly about their wealth and worldliness, I am always reminded of Israel Hand's reason for mutiny: "because I want their wines and pickles and that." Could you imagine the Orthodox priests let loose in a land of barbers, razors, and soft foods? They don't have those beards because they can afford shaving cream, I can tell you.

You might think Jo is impertinent. I can assure you he isn't: He's profoundly autistic. You're doing an excellent job of patting him on the head and calling him a good boy. He also likes a good scratch behind the ears. No sudden movements, though. He makes a high-pitched keening sound when startled. Sounds like, "Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!"
In the following video, the man represents Jocose and the cow represents Rome. Protestants are represented by the mountains in the background.
https://youtu.be/LxXjsQbCZR8
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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Del
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Del » Wed May 31, 2017 7:40 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 6:49 am
Preacher Pipes,

Welcome to the forum. Have you met Jocose? He's a real nice guy, but there are things you need to know about him.

You see, up until roughly 25 minutes ago, old Jo over there was a Protestant. A Rome-hating enemy of tradition in all its forms. Now that he's the newest member of some incredibly hard up Orthodox church (but I repeat myself), he's become a Rome-hating enemy of any tradition different than the one he picked up twenty-five minutes ago.

He's too new to realize that the great national sport of the Orthodox bishops is excommunication of other Orthodox bishops in long standing arguments about the Tripartite nature of God and the indivisibility of the two drachmas and four buttons found in the collection plate on the feast day of St Unpronouncable the Unwashed, and he wouldn't call it schism even if somebody explained it to him using really simple words. He doesn't realize there are Orthodox churches in full communion with Rome. Hell, he doesn't understand what communion is, yet.

Whenever I hear an Orthodox speaking of other sects of Christianity, particularly about their wealth and worldliness, I am always reminded of Israel Hand's reason for mutiny: "because I want their wines and pickles and that." Could you imagine the Orthodox priests let loose in a land of barbers, razors, and soft foods? They don't have those beards because they can afford shaving cream, I can tell you.

You might think Jo is impertinent. I can assure you he isn't: He's profoundly autistic. You're doing an excellent job of patting him on the head and calling him a good boy. He also likes a good scratch behind the ears. No sudden movements, though. He makes a high-pitched keening sound when startled. Sounds like, "Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!"
Preacher Pipes:

The second thing that you need to know is that this is how hugodrax treats his good friends.

And you really don't want to be one of his bad friends.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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hugodrax
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Re: Soteriology

Post by hugodrax » Wed May 31, 2017 7:51 am

Del wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 6:49 am
Preacher Pipes,

Welcome to the forum. Have you met Jocose? He's a real nice guy, but there are things you need to know about him.

You see, up until roughly 25 minutes ago, old Jo over there was a Protestant. A Rome-hating enemy of tradition in all its forms. Now that he's the newest member of some incredibly hard up Orthodox church (but I repeat myself), he's become a Rome-hating enemy of any tradition different than the one he picked up twenty-five minutes ago.

He's too new to realize that the great national sport of the Orthodox bishops is excommunication of other Orthodox bishops in long standing arguments about the Tripartite nature of God and the indivisibility of the two drachmas and four buttons found in the collection plate on the feast day of St Unpronouncable the Unwashed, and he wouldn't call it schism even if somebody explained it to him using really simple words. He doesn't realize there are Orthodox churches in full communion with Rome. Hell, he doesn't understand what communion is, yet.

Whenever I hear an Orthodox speaking of other sects of Christianity, particularly about their wealth and worldliness, I am always reminded of Israel Hand's reason for mutiny: "because I want their wines and pickles and that." Could you imagine the Orthodox priests let loose in a land of barbers, razors, and soft foods? They don't have those beards because they can afford shaving cream, I can tell you.

You might think Jo is impertinent. I can assure you he isn't: He's profoundly autistic. You're doing an excellent job of patting him on the head and calling him a good boy. He also likes a good scratch behind the ears. No sudden movements, though. He makes a high-pitched keening sound when startled. Sounds like, "Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!"
Preacher Pipes:

The second thing that you need to know is that this is how hugodrax treats his good friends.

And you really don't want to be one of his bad friends.
At least I have friends, Del. :mrgreen:
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Del
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Del » Wed May 31, 2017 7:54 am

Cleon wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:16 am
Del wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 7:33 pm
Soteriology is one of those words that I had never heard before I joined CPS, and I still have to look it up or scan the context to remember what it means.

It seems to be a topic of great concern to American Evangelicals. I do not know why. But as you were brought up and formed in that tradition, it is suitable that you enjoy pondering these things from within the Apostolic Tradition.
=====================================

I was never fond analyses which view the Crucifixion as Christ's taking on the punishment for our sins. I know that St. Paul says as much, and I do not meant to contradict him. There is also the biblical precedent of the scapegoat, as Anselm reasons. But this does not seem to be what the Crucifixion means.

The Last Supper/Crucifixion arc is a divine renewal of the Passover. The essence of the Passover is this: The Unblemished Lamb is sacrificed and eaten by those who are being saved from their bondage.

So I do not much like the notion that Jesus took our punishment for us. I prefer the notion that, by giving us His Body to eat and His Blood to drink, he is protecting us from the punishment due to us for our sins.

There is so much more to it, of course. We must repent of our sins, by confessing and striving to avoid temptation. We must believe and be baptized. But these actions alone would not be salvific, except that Jesus makes them so.... by sacrificially giving Himself to us so that we can receive Him at His altar.
Soteriology is the study of salvation, and salvation is a broader term that atonement. We seem to have latched on to atonement theory here.

I'm of the opinion that all of the different atonement formulations have way more in common than they do differences. There's no need to pit one fully against another. Sure, differences and error will pop up, but as long as these formulations are grounded in the holy scriptures there's no no need to think that one model will necessarily exclude another formulation. It's not an either/or it's a both/and with different emphasis here and there. I think the holy scriptures describe many ways to view the atonement.

Also, I would submit that you care about soteriology just as much as the protestant, as revealed in the last paragraph you wrote. Your emphasis is just on a different (and sometimes erroneously pronounced :wink: ) syllable.
Didn't say that I don't care.

Just admitting that we have a different language.

You can spend a decade in a Catholic parish and never hear the word soteriology or a phrase like "Has she been saved?"
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Cleon
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Cleon » Wed May 31, 2017 8:13 am

Del wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:54 am
Cleon wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:16 am
Del wrote:
Tue May 30, 2017 7:33 pm
Soteriology is one of those words that I had never heard before I joined CPS, and I still have to look it up or scan the context to remember what it means.

It seems to be a topic of great concern to American Evangelicals. I do not know why. But as you were brought up and formed in that tradition, it is suitable that you enjoy pondering these things from within the Apostolic Tradition.
=====================================

I was never fond analyses which view the Crucifixion as Christ's taking on the punishment for our sins. I know that St. Paul says as much, and I do not meant to contradict him. There is also the biblical precedent of the scapegoat, as Anselm reasons. But this does not seem to be what the Crucifixion means.

The Last Supper/Crucifixion arc is a divine renewal of the Passover. The essence of the Passover is this: The Unblemished Lamb is sacrificed and eaten by those who are being saved from their bondage.

So I do not much like the notion that Jesus took our punishment for us. I prefer the notion that, by giving us His Body to eat and His Blood to drink, he is protecting us from the punishment due to us for our sins.

There is so much more to it, of course. We must repent of our sins, by confessing and striving to avoid temptation. We must believe and be baptized. But these actions alone would not be salvific, except that Jesus makes them so.... by sacrificially giving Himself to us so that we can receive Him at His altar.
Soteriology is the study of salvation, and salvation is a broader term that atonement. We seem to have latched on to atonement theory here.

I'm of the opinion that all of the different atonement formulations have way more in common than they do differences. There's no need to pit one fully against another. Sure, differences and error will pop up, but as long as these formulations are grounded in the holy scriptures there's no no need to think that one model will necessarily exclude another formulation. It's not an either/or it's a both/and with different emphasis here and there. I think the holy scriptures describe many ways to view the atonement.

Also, I would submit that you care about soteriology just as much as the protestant, as revealed in the last paragraph you wrote. Your emphasis is just on a different (and sometimes erroneously pronounced :wink: ) syllable.
Didn't say that I don't care.

Just admitting that we have a different language.

You can spend a decade in a Catholic parish and never hear the word soteriology or a phrase like "Has she been saved?"
I understand.

We don't say that either. It's usually, "are they a communing member?" or "do they confess Christ?". Subtle differences.
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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Re: Soteriology

Post by wosbald » Wed May 31, 2017 9:10 am

+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:16 am
Soteriology is the study of salvation, and salvation is a broader term that atonement. We seem to have latched on to atonement theory here.

I'm of the opinion that all of the different atonement formulations have way more in common than they do differences. There's no need to pit one fully against another. Sure, differences and error will pop up, but as long as these formulations are grounded in the holy scriptures there's no no need to think that one model will necessarily exclude another formulation. It's not an either/or it's a both/and with different emphasis here and there. I think the holy scriptures describe many ways to view the atonement.
FWIW, no soteriological systems, as such, were ever condemned by the Magisterium. Rather, it was specific propositions — propositions which heretically-associated soteriologies were constructed to support — which were condemned.

That's why, for example, von Balthasar can press into service a Penal Substitutionary architecture, carefully crafted so as to be conceptually robust enough to support Catholic dogmatics yet attenuated enough to avoid the consequence of Limited Atonement, and no Catholic bats an eye (except, perhaps, for certain armchair heresiologists furtively scribbling their enemies-list).




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: Soteriology

Post by Goose55 » Wed May 31, 2017 9:28 am

Soteriology, or the theology of salvation, is indeed, a fascinating subject.

Of course, a lot of folk here know that I enjoy the writings of C.S. Lewis. Here are some some of his soteriological thoughts:

"—But supposing God became man—suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God’s nature in one person—then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God….But we cannot share God’s dying unless God dies; and He cannot die except by being a man, That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."

"—The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God."

There is more here:

https://godinthewasteland.com/2013/12/2 ... carnation/
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Soteriology

Post by Jocose » Wed May 31, 2017 11:16 am

Del wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 6:49 am
...
Preacher Pipes:

The second thing that you need to know is that this is how hugodrax treats his good friends.

And you really don't want to be one of his bad friends.
Preacher Pipes:

The third thing that you need to know is that I am not a small Chinese man named Wu.

And unlike hugo, I am also not a cradle Apostolic Christian.
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Re: Soteriology

Post by hugodrax » Wed May 31, 2017 11:27 am

Jocose wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 11:16 am
Del wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 6:49 am
...
Preacher Pipes:

The second thing that you need to know is that this is how hugodrax treats his good friends.

And you really don't want to be one of his bad friends.
Preacher Pipes:

The third thing that you need to know is that I am not a small Chinese man named Wu.

And unlike hugo, I am also not a cradle Apostolic Christian.
Quite true: he's a large Chinese man named Wu.

Second point is also quite true.

New point of discussion: I like Wu and tease him, but have the greatest respect for both the Orthodox church in general and individual believers in general. Purely an exercise in Jo baiting.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Soteriology

Post by DepartedLight » Wed May 31, 2017 12:41 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 11:27 am
Jocose wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 11:16 am
Del wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 6:49 am
...
Preacher Pipes:

The second thing that you need to know is that this is how hugodrax treats his good friends.

And you really don't want to be one of his bad friends.
Preacher Pipes:

The third thing that you need to know is that I am not a small Chinese man named Wu.

And unlike hugo, I am also not a cradle Apostolic Christian.
Quite true: he's a large Chinese man named Wu.

Second point is also quite true.

New point of discussion: I like Wu and tease him, but have the greatest respect for both the Orthodox church in general and individual believers in general. Purely an exercise in Jo baiting.
When did Jo momma become Jo baiting?

I can't keep up.
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Preacher Pipes » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:35 pm

I'm going to go ahead and fall back to my default and blame Wayne for all of this...
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Re: Soteriology

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:55 pm

You know, I always liked Christus Victor and the moral influence theory, which I believe some Eastern Orthodox still hold to; however, to be honest, I don't see one theory right over the other, though penal substitution, even the satisfaction theory developed by Anselm, always seemed rather lacking to me. I think we all understand that Jesus brings upon salvation; it's how he goes about it that people tend to disagree.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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