These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

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These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Jocose » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:15 am

"I am The living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give him is my flesh,which I shall give for the life of the world. "

The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life and you.

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

"For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

"As the living father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on me will live because of me.

"This is the bread which came down from heaven-not as your fathers ate the manna,and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever. "
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:07 am

John 6 is my favorite Scripture reading.

Jocose.... this is a very personal question, but will share a bit of your journey? After having been taught all your life by trusted parents and teachers and pastors that "Jesus was making a metaphor," what happens when you believe?
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by pilgrim » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:45 am

I'd encourage you to look at the emphasis on believing and coming to Jesus through out that section, particularly starting with the question posed in verse 29, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" through verse 69's, "we believe". If you take the time to look at the book of John as a whole, and notice his continued use of signs to 'encourage' belief, and the supernatural nature and necessity of this faith, and the giving of children to Jesus Christ, who are born of the Spirit, and how these receive him and are accounted as children of God, and this of course is that faith which is what is required, perhaps there might be some effect on your thoughts.

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Goose55 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:01 am

John 6:63

" [.....] the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am

Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
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"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Joshoowah » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by durangopipe » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:22 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
In my experience, using a verse or two to establish or defend a doctrinal position or a fundamental theological principle almost always does an injustice both to the entirety of scripture and to tradition.
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Thunktank » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 pm

On the internet people argue over what this is or becomes:

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If you actually go on the journey that is Mass, this is what happens:

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Jocose » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am

Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
"And for Freds sake, DO NOT point anyone towards CPS or you'll put them off of both Christianity and pipe smoking forever." ~ FredS



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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Joshoowah » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:47 am

Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
I love how the meat of my comment was outright ignored. I wasn't arguing with your view of the Eucharist; I was telling you that John 6 doesn't give the seeker an explanation on what to believe in order to have eternal life. If it did, there wouldn't be John 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and so on. That's all; nothing more, nothing less.


Also, for the record, the Apostles and early Christians also used milk and honey in the Eucharist, yet we do not do that today. It's a shame we don't though.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Goose55 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:16 am

The Gospel of John is my favorite Gospel. It records more narrative than any other. Jesus' conversations with people.

Throughout this Gospel we have Jesus many times mentioning that He has been sent from the Father. Perhaps that is what He is telling us to believe.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by durangopipe » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:20 am

I'm glad to see the conversation your thread has triggered, Jo.
I do hope we will all continue to speak and listen from a place of mutual respect.

Few conversations are as important as this one, or as fraught with the same difficulties that have divided rather than united the Body of Christ, His extended church.

I guess I've made my position and understanding clear in the past. It's more of a non-position, a recognition of not understanding in this life, I guess. We are human and fallible, struggling to do God's will. Historically we have been divided, sometimes with horrific consequences.

We do not have to agree, even in matters critical to belief, in order to see the love of a God as it manifests toward us and in us.

We are all "of like, precious faith."
We all now see "through a glass darkly."

And one day we will all see "face to face."

For myself, I still remember the first time I attended a Catholic mass after years in the Baptist church. It was midnight mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. I was as overwhelmed with wonder and joy as Thunk's posted painting suggests. There is something huge here, I thought, that I have not experienced in worship before. I did not choose to receive communion, but I so very much wanted to. Ached to. I was ignorant of the traditions and doctrines of the Roman Church, and I did not want to be disrespectful in my ignorance. But God was there, and I knew it, in spite of the very anti-Catholic teaching that occasionally occurred in the preaching of my pastor.

That was just before I went off to college and the beginning of my exposure to more serious theology. I first heard the phrase, "all of like precious faith" the autumn after that experience in a New Testament class.

The phrase struck me as a manifestation of the love of God that unites us, an antidote to the evil of fallen man that divides us.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:16 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:16 am
The Gospel of John is my favorite Gospel. It records more narrative than any other. Jesus' conversations with people.

Throughout this Gospel we have Jesus many times mentioning that He has been sent from the Father. Perhaps that is what He is telling us to believe.
Jesus taught us many things, all of which are worthy of belief.

The unique* thing about John 6 is that this is the only place in which Jesus says that we must eat His flesh and drink His Blood if we are to have eternal life... and if we don't eat and drink, we do not have life within us. (Hearken back to John 3:16 -- "So that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.")

And then He lets many of His disciples walk away because the very thought is too absurd and disgusting to hear. Jews don't drink blood! After they left, He did not "explain the parable" to his Apostles.... He dared them to walk away too. Peter responded for them all, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Remember that John wrote His gospel must later than the others. He was writing for Christians who already knew what they were doing in the Divine Liturgy. They were already being persecuted for "eating their God." John 6 was written to explain and encourage the faith that Christians already held.


*Jesus also talked about "living water" and eternal life in His conversation with the Woman at the Well, but the disciples were not revulsed by this. This revelation about the saving power of Baptism was eclipsed in the moment by the wonder of having her soul read by a prophet. even now, most of us overlook this little gem in the middle of that story:
John 4:31 Meanwhile, the disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat.” 32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:33 pm

John's Gospel has many fascinating threads running through it.

Consider the Transfiguration... many sermons have wondered about why Jesus was visited by Moses and Elijah.
- Talk of the "Law and the Prophets."
- The glowing visages which foreshadow a New Covenant.

Apostolic Christians also see this -- Moses and Elijah both prefigure the Eucharist!

- Moses turned the water of the Nile into blood.
Jesus turned water into wine... then changed the wine into His Blood.

- Elijah multiplied the last measures of flour and oil into enough bread to survive throughout a season of famine.
Jesus multiplied bread to feed a multitude.... then changed the bread into His Flesh, to give life throughout the world.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm

Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:11 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:47 am
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
I love how the meat of my comment was outright ignored. I wasn't arguing with your view of the Eucharist; I was telling you that John 6 doesn't give the seeker an explanation on what to believe in order to have eternal life. If it did, there wouldn't be John 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and so on. That's all; nothing more, nothing less.


Also, for the record, the Apostles and early Christians also used milk and honey in the Eucharist, yet we do not do that today. It's a shame we don't though.
I wasn't ignoring that. It's just a matter of how many rounds do we want to go?
- I made an assertion about John 6.
- You made your assertion about John 6.

Should we keep repeating ourselves?

I made an assertion about what the Apostles believed and taught, surrounding the lesson of John 6. Just to defend my position.

The reason why we have the rest of the Bible is that there is more to following Christ than merely "believing" and "eternal life."

As for early practices of the Eucharist.... There was a lot of variability, some practices were good and some were not. St. Paul speaks at length about practices that were not good in 1 Cor 11 -- basically the folks forgot that they were there to receive Jesus, and concentrated too much on the fellowship and the potluck.

St. Paul ended 1 For 11 with this:
34 If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come.
I fancy that it was St. Paul himself, "setting other matters in order," who first said, "Have your picnic after the worship, if you wish. Share what you bring with everyone. But during worship, you will consecrate the unleavened matzoh and share a sip from the common cup. This is what Christ did and told us to do, when we gather to worship Him."
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Skip » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm

Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by hugodrax » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:27 pm

Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
Does the same prohibition extend to the Protestants that enjoy teaching me about my own faith?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Del
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm

Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
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