These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Onyx » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm

Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Thunktank » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:28 pm

A small interjection here:
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:20 am


For myself, I still remember the first time I attended a Catholic mass after years in the Baptist church. It was midnight mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. I was as overwhelmed with wonder and joy as Thunk's posted painting suggests. There is something huge here, I thought, that I have not experienced in worship before. I did not choose to receive communion, but I so very much wanted to. Ached to. I was ignorant of the traditions and doctrines of the Roman Church, and I did not want to be disrespectful in my ignorance. But God was there, and I knew it, in spite of the very anti-Catholic teaching that occasionally occurred in the preaching of my pastor.

That was just before I went off to college and the beginning of my exposure to more serious theology. I first heard the phrase, "all of like precious faith" the autumn after that experience in a New Testament class.

The phrase struck me as a manifestation of the love of God that unites us, an antidote to the evil of fallen man that divides us.
I can relate to this. My first experience in a more sacramental church was Anglican, which during the same months I also got married and went on my Honeymoon in Italy and Greece. We visited the Vatican museum, and I remember looking at various liturgical items from the earliest centuries of Christendom (cir. 1st through 5th) and it really deepened my appreciation for it and church history. I was also raised a Baptist and by the time of my marriage, I was practicing Evangelicalism. Regardless, the Mass and Divine Litturgy of Rome, England or the Eastern churches really resonated with me.

A month ago or so before I began taking my second child to church again, I showed him a painting like that I posted above and explained it to him. His eyes lit up and amazingly, he remembered so much of what we did at the Divine Liturgy. I was thoroughly impressed. He's a special kid in this way. My wife is baptized Catholic and her "Mimi" took her to Mass often. She is comfortable in the Catholic Churches as a result even though she hasn't practiced it since a little girl with her Mimi. She also said that she was also thinking of attending Mass with us soon.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by TNLawPiper » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm

Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by durangopipe » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:03 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:28 pm
A small interjection here:
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:20 am


For myself, I still remember the first time I attended a Catholic mass after years in the Baptist church. It was midnight mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. I was as overwhelmed with wonder and joy as Thunk's posted painting suggests. There is something huge here, I thought, that I have not experienced in worship before. I did not choose to receive communion, but I so very much wanted to. Ached to. I was ignorant of the traditions and doctrines of the Roman Church, and I did not want to be disrespectful in my ignorance. But God was there, and I knew it, in spite of the very anti-Catholic teaching that occasionally occurred in the preaching of my pastor.

That was just before I went off to college and the beginning of my exposure to more serious theology. I first heard the phrase, "all of like precious faith" the autumn after that experience in a New Testament class.

The phrase struck me as a manifestation of the love of God that unites us, an antidote to the evil of fallen man that divides us.
I can relate to this. My first experience in a more sacramental church was Anglican, which during the same months I also got married and went on my Honeymoon in Italy and Greece. We visited the Vatican museum, and I remember looking at various liturgical items from the earliest centuries of Christendom (cir. 1st through 5th) and it really deepened my appreciation for it and church history. I was also raised a Baptist and by the time of my marriage, I was practicing Evangelicalism. Regardless, the Mass and Divine Litturgy of Rome, England or the Eastern churches really resonated with me.

A month ago or so before I began taking my second child to church again, I showed him a painting like that I posted above and explained it to him. His eyes lit up and amazingly, he remembered so much of what we did at the Divine Liturgy. I was thoroughly impressed. He's a special kid in this way. My wife is baptized Catholic and her "Mimi" took her to Mass often. She is comfortable in the Catholic Churches as a result even though she hasn't practiced it since a little girl with her Mimi. She also said that she was also thinking of attending Mass with us soon.
How wonderful.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:15 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
Okay.... Let's take a deep breath.

The Cathars ("purified ones") demanded strict moral norms, ascetism, and unadorned. This rule appealed to pious and zealous people... It always does.

Certain strains of Calvinism ("Puritans," in England) also demanded strict moral norms, asceticism, and unadorned worship.

I believe that they inherited this spirit from the Cathars. I like to hear other theories of how this spirit enthused so much of Protestantism.

The Albigensian heresy was still going strong at the time of Aquinas (late 1200's). It faded out by the end of the 1300's. Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517, so there was less than 150 years between the two movements.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Thunktank » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 pm

Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:15 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:


Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
Okay.... Let's take a deep breath.

The Cathars ("purified ones") demanded strict moral norms, ascetism, and unadorned. This rule appealed to pious and zealous people... It always does.

Certain strains of Calvinism ("Puritans," in England) also demanded strict moral norms, asceticism, and unadorned worship.

I believe that they inherited this spirit from the Cathars. I like to hear other theories of how this spirit enthused so much of Protestantism.

The Albigensian heresy was still going strong at the time of Aquinas (late 1200's). It faded out by the end of the 1300's. Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517, so there was less than 150 years between the two movements.
[weeble is upright again already]

Whack!

Deep breath, Del, just keep breathing deep for at least 24 hours.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:25 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:15 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm


Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
Okay.... Let's take a deep breath.

The Cathars ("purified ones") demanded strict moral norms, ascetism, and unadorned. This rule appealed to pious and zealous people... It always does.

Certain strains of Calvinism ("Puritans," in England) also demanded strict moral norms, asceticism, and unadorned worship.

I believe that they inherited this spirit from the Cathars. I like to hear other theories of how this spirit enthused so much of Protestantism.

The Albigensian heresy was still going strong at the time of Aquinas (late 1200's). It faded out by the end of the 1300's. Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517, so there was less than 150 years between the two movements.
[weeble is upright again already]

Whack!

Deep breath, Del, just keep breathing deep for at least 24 hours.
Har! It really doesn't matter where the tradition of zealous puritanism came from, does it?


The source and summit of our faith is receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!
This is the good news that Apostolic Christians are commissioned to share.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Thunktank » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:00 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:25 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:15 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm


Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
Okay.... Let's take a deep breath.

The Cathars ("purified ones") demanded strict moral norms, ascetism, and unadorned. This rule appealed to pious and zealous people... It always does.

Certain strains of Calvinism ("Puritans," in England) also demanded strict moral norms, asceticism, and unadorned worship.

I believe that they inherited this spirit from the Cathars. I like to hear other theories of how this spirit enthused so much of Protestantism.

The Albigensian heresy was still going strong at the time of Aquinas (late 1200's). It faded out by the end of the 1300's. Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517, so there was less than 150 years between the two movements.
[weeble is upright again already]

Whack!

Deep breath, Del, just keep breathing deep for at least 24 hours.
Har! It really doesn't matter where the tradition of zealous puritanism came from, does it?
It may matter a little, but it doesn't require Catholics to make a pest of themselves over it.

The source and summit of our faith is receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!
This is the good news that Apostolic Christians are commissioned to share.
Share more good news and play less blame game then. Our friends don't need Catholics hitting them over the head with good news, blaming their beliefs on various subjective opinions about long ago dead heretics.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Del » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:10 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:00 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:25 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:15 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am


This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
Okay.... Let's take a deep breath.

The Cathars ("purified ones") demanded strict moral norms, ascetism, and unadorned. This rule appealed to pious and zealous people... It always does.

Certain strains of Calvinism ("Puritans," in England) also demanded strict moral norms, asceticism, and unadorned worship.

I believe that they inherited this spirit from the Cathars. I like to hear other theories of how this spirit enthused so much of Protestantism.

The Albigensian heresy was still going strong at the time of Aquinas (late 1200's). It faded out by the end of the 1300's. Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517, so there was less than 150 years between the two movements.
[weeble is upright again already]

Whack!

Deep breath, Del, just keep breathing deep for at least 24 hours.
Har! It really doesn't matter where the tradition of zealous puritanism came from, does it?
It may matter a little, but it doesn't require Catholics to make a pest of themselves over it.

The source and summit of our faith is receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!
This is the good news that Apostolic Christians are commissioned to share.
Share more good news and play less blame game then. Our friends don't need Catholics hitting them over the head with good news, blaming their beliefs on various subjective opinions about long ago dead heretics.
You guys are all so touchy!

I find the history of that religious mood rather interesting. Why did the proto-Bible Christians adopt such an unbiblical ascetism? How did it manage to suppress the spirit of Merry England for so long? What were its effects on American history and culture?

I don't know why anyone gets insulted by this. We love our spirits and tobacco, and both still suffer under the remnants of puritanical oppression.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Thunktank » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:24 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:10 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:00 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:25 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:15 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:46 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm


That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
Okay.... Let's take a deep breath.

The Cathars ("purified ones") demanded strict moral norms, ascetism, and unadorned. This rule appealed to pious and zealous people... It always does.

Certain strains of Calvinism ("Puritans," in England) also demanded strict moral norms, asceticism, and unadorned worship.

I believe that they inherited this spirit from the Cathars. I like to hear other theories of how this spirit enthused so much of Protestantism.

The Albigensian heresy was still going strong at the time of Aquinas (late 1200's). It faded out by the end of the 1300's. Martin Luther started the Reformation in 1517, so there was less than 150 years between the two movements.
[weeble is upright again already]

Whack!

Deep breath, Del, just keep breathing deep for at least 24 hours.
Har! It really doesn't matter where the tradition of zealous puritanism came from, does it?
It may matter a little, but it doesn't require Catholics to make a pest of themselves over it.

The source and summit of our faith is receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist!
This is the good news that Apostolic Christians are commissioned to share.
Share more good news and play less blame game then. Our friends don't need Catholics hitting them over the head with good news, blaming their beliefs on various subjective opinions about long ago dead heretics.
You guys are all so touchy!

I find the history of that religious mood rather interesting. Why did the proto-Bible Christians adopt such an unbiblical ascetism? How did it manage to suppress the spirit of Merry England for so long? What were its effects on American history and culture?

I don't know why anyone gets insulted by this. We love our spirits and tobacco, and both still suffer under the remnants of puritanical oppression.
I know you don't know why, it's obvious that you don't know why.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Skip » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm

Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Onyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:34 pm

Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:15 am
Starting with John 3:16:


Which begs us to ask the question, "What is it, specifically, that we must believe if we will have eternal life?"

Jesus answers this question in John 6. This matter of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is the reality is the reality which we must either believe -- or turn away from Him. Jesus watched many of His disciples depart, and then dared His closest friends to do the same.

It must have taken great trust to stay with Jesus, because His teaching seemed impossible until the Last Supper/Crucifixion. And even then, they did not fully understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them at Pentecost.

We have it much easier!
Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
I read Del on CPS for the same reason I follow Jaden Smith on twitter.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by durangopipe » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 pm

Onyx wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:34 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:11 pm


Del, my friend, the whole of John answers the question you beg. I must admit, I'm not fully onboard with the "metaphorical" hypothesis, but I'm not quite onboard with the literal either. I'm still exploring, but the Greek language is helping with my exploration. In any case, John 6 doesn't tell the seeker what he/she must believe in order to have eternal life. Perhaps it gives a piece of the story, but it is only a piece. Ah well, carry on.
Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
I read Del on CPS for the same reason I follow Jaden Smith on twitter.
To see them wearing skirts, uh kilts, uh . . . whatever?
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Skip » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:19 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:34 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am
Del wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:22 pm


Any scripture can be twisted to mean whatever a person wants it to mean. The Apostles took Jesus literally, and taught this in the churches they established.
This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
I read Del on CPS for the same reason I follow Jaden Smith on twitter.
To see them wearing skirts, uh kilts, uh . . . whatever?
Read my sig, redneck. I convinced Del to purchase his first kilt after I already owned multiple thereof.

Now, back to the sarcasm...
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by durangopipe » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:57 pm

Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:19 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:34 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:23 am


This was taught and affirmed during the first 1000 years of Christianity.
That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
I read Del on CPS for the same reason I follow Jaden Smith on twitter.
To see them wearing skirts, uh kilts, uh . . . whatever?
Read my sig, redneck. I convinced Del to purchase his first kilt after I already owned multiple thereof.

Now, back to the sarcasm...
I didn't say it was a bad thing.

Just trying to figure out what Del and Jaden Smith have in common. That's the only thing I could come up with.

It felt kinda good to be called a redneck for a change!
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Onyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:16 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:57 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:19 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:34 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm


That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
I read Del on CPS for the same reason I follow Jaden Smith on twitter.
To see them wearing skirts, uh kilts, uh . . . whatever?
Read my sig, redneck. I convinced Del to purchase his first kilt after I already owned multiple thereof.

Now, back to the sarcasm...
I didn't say it was a bad thing.

Just trying to figure out what Del and Jaden Smith have in common...
Both dumb as plastic sporks.
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Skip
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by Skip » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:17 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:57 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:19 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:13 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:34 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:17 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Skip wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:58 pm


That sounds about right.

I don't know the history of Eastern heresies much after 1000. But about that time, the Albigensian heresy started to rise quickly in the West, and it was a powerful denial of baptism and the Eucharist.

The Albigensians (or as they called themselves, "Cathars" = "purified ones") believed in two gods -- a good God who created the spiritual realm, and an evil god who created the material realm. Thus, Jesus could not have incarnated in a material body. He appeared to us in the semblance of a body, to save us from the evil of our own flesh. He only appeared to die, etc.

As a result, the notion that Jesus could give us His own "body" was absurd to them. He could only give us His spirit, because that is all that He has to give.

Like modern Jehovah's Witnesses, they used the Christian Bible -- but they did not believe in Trinitarian Christian faith.

Some Protestant traditions adopted the puritanical extremes of the Cathars. This is where the practice of "no drinking, smoking, or dancing" came from, and the iconoclasm that refuses sacred art or images of Christ's body on a cross.
Del, if you want to discuss Catholicism, you go for it. When it comes to Protestants, you really need to shut the f*** up. Sometimes, you have your head so far up your own ass that you're breathing brown air. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Blunt enough?
I will gladly accept correction.

The culture of the tradition of the Albigensian heresy was still strong in French-speaking regions, such as Geneva. Calvin did not invent the desire for ascetic purification... he found it in the people already. (Same reason St. Francis's order was so popular and successful.... People responded favorably to the poor, happy, and holy friars.)

Protestantism came out of Catholicism and the Western heresies. That is why it does not resemble Orthodoxy or the Eastern heresies. We can't talk about Catholicism and Protestantism as two different things until we understand their common history and shared tradition.
This is my new favourite thread.
Masochist. You have Dial-a-Mistress on speed dial? :twisted: :lol:
I read Del on CPS for the same reason I follow Jaden Smith on twitter.
To see them wearing skirts, uh kilts, uh . . . whatever?
Read my sig, redneck. I convinced Del to purchase his first kilt after I already owned multiple thereof.

Now, back to the sarcasm...
I didn't say it was a bad thing.

Just trying to figure out what Del and Jaden Smith have in common. That's the only thing I could come up with.

It felt kinda good to be called a redneck for a change!
:D Ha! Excellent reaction!
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:36 am

#started-sweet #became-an-abortion
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by durangopipe » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:14 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:36 am
#started-sweet #became-an-abortion
I have no doubt it will become sweet again.

This thread reminds me a bit of smoking a bowl of much loved complex tobacco.

Starts full of anticipation, hope and uncertainty, moves into something lovely, every now and then a brief bitter note, perhaps, before a breath of sweetness or other taste delight . . .

If it's good stuff, the moment you wonder if whatever you love most about it will return, it does, rewarding you for your patience and faith in it.

How could a thread on the Eucharist, on Holy Communion be otherwise?

The Eucharist is an overwhelming mystery, to me no easier to comprehend or wrap my head around than the complexities of the Trinity. Part of the magnitude of the gift and experience of partaking is the meditation on its meaning. A meditation that is no less mysterious than contemplating the nature of God. In fact, in this writing I want to suggest it is the very much the same meditation, and this is one way in which the bread has become His body.

Speaking only for myself, it would be hubristic for me ever to assert that I "Understand" it.
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Re: These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum

Post by colton » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:51 am

Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:28 pm
A small interjection here:
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:20 am


For myself, I still remember the first time I attended a Catholic mass after years in the Baptist church. It was midnight mass at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York. I was as overwhelmed with wonder and joy as Thunk's posted painting suggests. There is something huge here, I thought, that I have not experienced in worship before. I did not choose to receive communion, but I so very much wanted to. Ached to. I was ignorant of the traditions and doctrines of the Roman Church, and I did not want to be disrespectful in my ignorance. But God was there, and I knew it, in spite of the very anti-Catholic teaching that occasionally occurred in the preaching of my pastor.

That was just before I went off to college and the beginning of my exposure to more serious theology. I first heard the phrase, "all of like precious faith" the autumn after that experience in a New Testament class.

The phrase struck me as a manifestation of the love of God that unites us, an antidote to the evil of fallen man that divides us.
I can relate to this. My first experience in a more sacramental church was Anglican, which during the same months I also got married and went on my Honeymoon in Italy and Greece. We visited the Vatican museum, and I remember looking at various liturgical items from the earliest centuries of Christendom (cir. 1st through 5th) and it really deepened my appreciation for it and church history. I was also raised a Baptist and by the time of my marriage, I was practicing Evangelicalism. Regardless, the Mass and Divine Litturgy of Rome, England or the Eastern churches really resonated with me.

A month ago or so before I began taking my second child to church again, I showed him a painting like that I posted above and explained it to him. His eyes lit up and amazingly, he remembered so much of what we did at the Divine Liturgy. I was thoroughly impressed. He's a special kid in this way. My wife is baptized Catholic and her "Mimi" took her to Mass often. She is comfortable in the Catholic Churches as a result even though she hasn't practiced it since a little girl with her Mimi. She also said that she was also thinking of attending Mass with us soon.
This warms the cockles of my heart.

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