Salvation?

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Fainn
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Salvation?

Post by Fainn » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:40 am

I'm afraid in my studies and circumstances, I have forgotten some basics. Are the Baptists right that "Once saved, always saved"? How can we have assurance? After my mountaintop experience in 2015, the presence of G-d was like an invisible cloud surrounding me for several months and I haven't felt that in over a year. It was the Holy Spirit testifying that I belonged to Christ and now I have no such testimony. Can salvation be lost? Honestly, I feel I have no connection whatsoever with any member of the G-dhead.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by Cleon » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:53 am

Rather than asking if your salvation can be lost based on how you feel, why don't you focus on the objective: Holy Scripture, Sacraments, and Prayer...all found within the church. So, GO TO CHURCH! Regularly. Even if you don't feel like it.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by gaining_age » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:10 am

The wrestling is a symptom of salvation. You question without departing and pursue knowing there is value. This is a reflection and portion from Phil 2:12

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,"

Be encouraged-- there are not always times of mountain top experiences. Faith is not an emotion. It's a trusting and reliance through strong and weak feeling times.

Psalm 84:5-7 mentions the Valley of Baca-- a dry and harsh region. It's a place where one has to go from refuge to refuge. There are times in life deep in the valley where it will seem that you will only find God in those moments of refugee. He is there with you through each portion regardless of what it feels like.

5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
6 As they go through the Valley of Baca
they make it a place of springs;
the early rain also covers it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength;
each one appears before God in Zion.


Here's a song that has had great encouragement for me in difficult times as it reminds me of how God is. And how good He is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gs6wqLfMEQ


Lyrics:
In the hush of morning, in the breathlessness of night,
In the secret place of dreams
In the throne of the heavens, in fields of stars to bright
In the voice of mountain streams
He is there to be worshipped forever
He is there to be loved and adored
He is there to receive power, blessing and honor and glory,
He is there,
He is there,
He is there to be praised.
In a veil of sorrow, when your hearts so full of tears
He is there to comfort you
And in your time of triumph, when love has conquered fear
He is there to soar with you
He is there, to be worshipped forever
He is there to be loved and adored
He is there to receive to power, blessing and honor and glory
He is there
He is there
He is there to be praised
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Re: Salvation?

Post by tuttle » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:22 am

Christ wasn't feeling it in the garden. So that's encouraging.

Martin Luther was asked once about what to do if you feel like you're unsure of your salvation. He answered something like, "Look at your baptism". Which basically is saying, Look what God has done for you. He did it. He sealed you with the Holy Spirit. Whether you feel it right now or not its true. That's where trust comes into play. If you had a mountaintop experience forever then it would be easy to trust that God has saved you.

I'd encourage you turn aside from certain denominational/theological systems/explanations of salvation and have a go at clinging to Christ. Read through the New Testament.

This hymn by John Newton has helped me in this;

I asked the Lord that I might grow
In faith and love and every grace
Might more of His salvation know
And seek more earnestly His face

Twas He who taught me thus to pray
And He I trust has answered prayer
But it has been in such a way
As almost drove me to despair

I hoped that in some favored hour
At once He'd answer my request
And by His love's constraining power
Subdue my sins and give me rest

Instead of this He made me feel
The hidden evils of my heart
And let the angry powers of Hell
Assault my soul in every part

Yea more with His own hand He seemed
Intent to aggravate my woe
Crossed all the fair designs I schemed,
Cast out my feelings, laid me low

Lord why is this, I trembling cried
Wilt Thou pursue thy worm to death?
"Tis in this way" The Lord replied
"I answer prayer for grace and faith"

"These inward trials I employ
From self and pride to set thee free
And break thy schemes of earthly joy
That thou mayest seek thy all in me"
"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: Salvation?

Post by Jester » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:32 am

There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus. If salvation was based on what we do instead of what Christ has done then there would be absolute reason to doubt. Since salvation belongs to the Lord he has sealed us with his Holy Spirit who is the GUARNTEE of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it.

I understand Fainn that you are in a tough season. Feeling separate and distant from God for hours or decades is a check engine light of anybody's spiritual walk with him. We should not make feeling a foundation for belief. We don't lose our Christianity when we don't feel Christian. Feeling separated from God is actually a logical conclusion. It is revelation of his holiness and our state of depravity. The danger of this revelation is forgetting the Gospel and not preaching it to ourselves daily. Daily we see ourselves more guilty and daily we see him more holy. Thanks be to God who sent his Son so that we can have this communion despite our current state.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:38 am

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:32 am
We should not make feeling a foundation for belief. We don't lose our Christianity when we don't feel Christian.
But that kinda begs the question, "how did you gain your Christianity?" Was that also by a "feeling"? By anything which intersects the real-world whatsover? By Sacraments, mayhap?




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Re: Salvation?

Post by Jester » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:42 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:38 am
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:32 am
We should not make feeling a foundation for belief. We don't lose our Christianity when we don't feel Christian.
But that kinda begs the question, "how did you gain your Christianity?" Was that also by a "feeling"? By anything which intersects the real-world whatsover? By Sacraments, mayhap?
How does an adopted child gain a family?
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Re: Salvation?

Post by Del » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:53 am

You want a sign that you have "assurance of salvation"?
- THEN KEEP PRAYING!

Your prayer is the sign!

When most people talk about salvation, they mean "the hope of an eternity in relationship with God in heaven." (Not my favorite definition of salvation, but it is a very common one.)

If we really want an eternal relationship with God.... then we prove this by keeping up a steady relationship with Him now. We avoid sin, and we enjoy conversation. This means prayer.

On the other hand, when we get lazy and let our prayer life grow cold... that is a sign that our salvation is at risk of loss.

Fainn -- given the struggles that you are suffering, keep up the prayers. Even if they sound angry in your own ears, your Father responds with loving patience. We are praying with you.

And work on obedience. As Cleon said, GO TO CHURCH! If only because our Father tells us to. He knows what we need. And the virtue of obedience is another sign of salvation.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by gaining_age » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:35 am

Phil 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:18 pm

As Mark Shea once said, I never felt more comfortable about my salvation than I did when I stopped believing in the assurance of salvation. In my experience, it causes more doubt for sinners (i.e., all of us) than it does assurance for the perfect.

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Re: Salvation?

Post by hugodrax » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:36 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:18 pm
As Mark Shea once said, I never felt more comfortable about my salvation than I did when I stopped believing in the assurance of salvation. In my experience, it causes more doubt for sinners (i.e., all of us) than it does assurance for the perfect.
This is good stuff. TN and I share faith in a particular sect of Christianity that teaches no individual will know their salvation until the final day. I've had mountain top moments where I'm assured God is there and that He loves me, but I've never felt I was assured of salvation.

Just love Him like He loves you and see what happens. I know you pretty well and I think you're a good man and my love isn't perfect. How much more must He love you?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Salvation?

Post by Thoth » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:24 pm

I'm not going to open the can of worms of what and how one is saved.

I'm going to repeat what some hve stated, your emotional state has nothing to do with your salvation. I was taught to divorce ones emotional state from their spiritual life/practices its great to have that emotional high but it doesn't mean a thing. I was taught everyone will come across a period of dryness or a feeling that God is not there, that actually is when one is supposed to strive harder. Like when one excercises they hit a plateau and need to increase intensity to start seeing results again. One sees in the lives of the saints where they would suffer through years of this feeling but not loosing hope. Keep up with your prayers.

They psalms are a great comfort pray them, in your case I would suggest Psalms 10,13, 22, 69, 88, 102, 103 and 120 (there are plenty of others but these are the ones I could think of)
"Go and reconcile with him who has trespassed against you before he comes and apologises to you and steals your crown" - H.H. Pope Cyril VI<br><br>"O Lord I was not aware of the treasure within me that is You" - H.H. Pope Shenouda III

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Re: Salvation?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:37 pm

Fainn wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:40 am
I'm afraid in my studies and circumstances, I have forgotten some basics. Are the Baptists right that "Once saved, always saved"? How can we have assurance? After my mountaintop experience in 2015, the presence of G-d was like an invisible cloud surrounding me for several months and I haven't felt that in over a year. It was the Holy Spirit testifying that I belonged to Christ and now I have no such testimony. Can salvation be lost? Honestly, I feel I have no connection whatsoever with any member of the G-dhead.
Mr, Fainn, if you believe He is who He said He was, and believe what He promised, your in good stead.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Salvation?

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:01 am

+JMJ+
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:37 pm
Mr, Fainn, if you believe He is who He said He was …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK7q8icg8Nc




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: Salvation?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am

Go to church. Drop the Messianic Jew thing - it's done nothing but confuse - and join the Christian church. Then go to church.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

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Re: Salvation?

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:42 am

+JMJ+
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am
Go to church. Drop the Messianic Jew thing - it's done nothing but confuse - and join the Christian church. Then go to church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_djk1RQ2Ew




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Fainn
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Re: Salvation?

Post by Fainn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:48 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:37 pm
Fainn wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:40 am
I'm afraid in my studies and circumstances, I have forgotten some basics. Are the Baptists right that "Once saved, always saved"? How can we have assurance? After my mountaintop experience in 2015, the presence of G-d was like an invisible cloud surrounding me for several months and I haven't felt that in over a year. It was the Holy Spirit testifying that I belonged to Christ and now I have no such testimony. Can salvation be lost? Honestly, I feel I have no connection whatsoever with any member of the G-dhead.
Mr, Fainn, if you believe He is who He said He was, and believe what He promised, your in good stead.
I do believe that.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by Fainn » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:52 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am
Go to church. Drop the Messianic Jew thing - it's done nothing but confuse - and join the Christian church. Then go to church.
I've been going to a regular church the past few weeks. It's confused me even more. Everything happens according to G-d's will which to me, seems arbitrary and capricious.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by John-Boy » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:26 pm

Fainn wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:52 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am
Go to church. Drop the Messianic Jew thing - it's done nothing but confuse - and join the Christian church. Then go to church.
I've been going to a regular church the past few weeks. It's confused me even more. Everything happens according to G-d's will which to me, seems arbitrary and capricious.
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Re: Salvation?

Post by FredS » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:47 pm

Fainn wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:52 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:33 am
Go to church. Drop the Messianic Jew thing - it's done nothing but confuse - and join the Christian church. Then go to church.
I've been going to a regular church the past few weeks. It's confused me even more. Everything happens according to G-d's will which to me, seems arbitrary and capricious.
Questioning. Searching. Seeking. Those are not bad things. They're good things in fact. It's why He gave you a brain and a will. If you're looking in the right places and asking the right people, you'll find what you're looking for. This dry time - "life in the middle" as I call it - is normal. The 'mountain top' experience is like when you first fell head over heals for your wife. You can't remain at that pace forever. The typical arc starts with your heart - you're passionate for Jesus! Then your head takes over and you study yourself silly trying to learn about Jesus. The best part though is when your gut takes over. Not feelings, because our feelings change as often as our socks, but you know God in your gut. There's a surety at that point. You know Him and He knows you. That's when you can get down to the serious business of doing His will here on earth. Not because your works save you, or even because He needs you. Because you can do nothing else.

The reason I think it's so important for you to get in a healthy local church is not so you get gold stars for attendance. Or so you can get worked up for a mission trip. Or even to learn chapter and verse. It's so that you can meet other men there - men who were where you are now. You'll know them precisely because they don't get whipped in to a frenzy or quote chapter and verse. You'll find some. They've been there and done that and are now doing the hard parts of really building the Kingdom. If you're lucky, you can learn from them. They like to share.

Fainn, I'm pulling for you like you can't believe.
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