It would seem we also have a conflict of definitions. It seems that your definition of the church is not a catholic body of believers but a sphere or realm in which men can enter to have inerrancy with the Holy Spirit. I know you would say that all men are capable of error but you say the church is incapable of this. This is confusing to me.Del wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:25 amWe have a conflict of First Principles. I am not ignoring them.Skip wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 amAnd you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church. Yet you continue to argue from that point as a First Principle. I wasn't joking: you are the antithesis of "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Were you to understand the rational foundations of those to whom you breathlessly blather, you'd realize that, in the absence of agreed First Principles, discussion will be fruitless. And we have a few years of threads to back up the veracity of that suggestion.
The way to debate first principles is to show that the conclusions that follow from a principle are false or inconsistent or nonsensical.
I use Scripture to show that Jesus established a Church for our salvation. I point out, in many examples, that this Church continues to teach consistently the same thing that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to teach since 33 AD.
Meanwhile, the foundational principle of the Reformation is that the Holy Spirit had abandoned Christ's Church, and that the only true and reliable authority is the Church's Sacred Scripture. I point out that the Bible Christians are often in defiance of the most central of biblical revelations, such as "THIS IS MY BODY." I point out that the shattered and disunited state of Christians after the Reformation is a clear indication that this is not God's path for us.
I know from history that most people will not listen. Some will even react violently to anything that challenges their first principle. But a few do listen.
So if you view the church as anyone in a certain realm then my answer is yes. The Holy Spirit can leave the "area" that was once consumed with those who possess the Spirit. I would also point out that those who are believers, filled with the Spirit, still have the capability of error. I see nothing with strapping on the label of RCC making it or people inerrant.