A Reformation paper for class

For those deep thinkers out there.

Moderator: tuttle

User avatar
Jocose
a large Chinese man named Wu
a large Chinese man named Wu
Posts: 20396
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Moonbase Alpha
Contact:

A Reformation paper for class

Post by Jocose » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am

Maybe this should be in the prayer request forum.

My very soon to be 16 year old step son has asked me for help on a paper that he's writing for school on the Reformation.

He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.

I don't even know where to begin and I really don't want to push my personal beliefs on the matter. I'd love for him to see each side from an honest perspective without trying to persuade either side as being the only way of looking at it.

His mom went to catholic school *and* attended Protestant churches growing up.

Any help, links, references on this big ol' can o' worms would be useful.

Thanks
"And for Freds sake, DO NOT point anyone towards CPS or you'll put them off of both Christianity and pipe smoking forever." ~ FredS



Image

User avatar
Sir Moose
President Jar-Jar Binks fan club: "Meesa tink he da best!" - Perpetually in Trouble
President Jar-Jar Binks fan club: "Meesa tink he da best!" - Perpetually in Trouble
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:17 am
Location: NW Washington
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:02 am

I'm supposed to be doing other things right now, so I'm not going too in depth right now. Having said that, Ligonier Ministries (R.C. Sproul's organization) has a number of articles on the Reformation. I'm sure some are more historical and some are more theological, but I'm not sorting through them right now. You can find them at this site. There should be at least a few things in there that he can use.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33753
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:11 am

The seminal work is The Reformation by Diarmaid MacCulloch. You can get a used copy on Amazon.com fairly cheap and the Kindle price is $7.99. Most any library should have a copy or be able to get one through ILL.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 27899
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by coco » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:12 am

Please note that CPS posts do not count as scholarly references.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 27899
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by coco » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:47 am

History should be written with primary sources, not just secondary sources. If you want to show "both sides of the argument," then you will need to cite what people back then had to say about things, not just make reference to what some guy today has to say about things. He should consider quoting Luther's 95 Theses and the Council of Trent.

I've graded a few seminary papers. I would be glad to look over his paper before he submits it.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 33753
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:17 am

coco wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:47 am
History should be written with primary sources, not just secondary sources. If you want to show "both sides of the argument," then you will need to cite what people back then had to say about things, not just make reference to what some guy today has to say about things. He should consider quoting Luther's 95 Theses and the Council of Trent.

I've graded a few seminary papers. I would be glad to look over his paper before he submits it.
Psst! The kid is 16.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36728
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:21 am

Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
Maybe this should be in the prayer request forum.

My very soon to be 16 year old step son has asked me for help on a paper that he's writing for school on the Reformation.

He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.

I don't even know where to begin and I really don't want to push my personal beliefs on the matter. I'd love for him to see each side from an honest perspective without trying to persuade either side as being the only way of looking at it.

His mom went to catholic school *and* attended Protestant churches growing up.

Any help, links, references on this big ol' can o' worms would be useful.

Thanks
I found this handy reference: An online version of Hillaire Belloc's Characters of the Reformation. Plenty of quotable bits about what went wrong.

https://archive.org/stream/CharactersOf ... c_djvu.txt

Mostly it focuses on the English Reformation. But you can do a document search for names like "Luther" or "Calvin" and get good stuff.

Belloc was writing firmly against the "Whig version of history," which believed that every movement in history and culture was a natural and evolutionary step toward progress and improvement. [Much of this thinking still dominates our culture today. It is fundamental to Marxism.] So expect Belloc to say a lot of "this is what happened and what came after, and here's why it wasn't very good."

His first mention of Calvin:
During the first twenty years or so, from 1517 onwards,
the revolt against the Church was closely intermixed with a
very legitimate determination to reform abuses. It was not
easy to see on which side a man or a book or an argument
lay. There were grave corruptions in the Church and grave
discontent with the organization of the Church on the part
of masses of men who never dreamed of destroying Church
unity or interfering with the great mass of Church doctrine
and custom. This was especially the case in England, where
the Church was less corrupt than elsewhere and where the
people were by nature conservative.

But at the end of these twenty years there came: — round
about 1536—40 — a change in what had hitherto been a
confused movement.

This change was primarily caused by the great effect of
Calvin, who set out with the greatest lucidity and
unparalleled energy to form a counter-Church for the
destruction of the old Church. He it was who really made
the new religion, wholly hostile to the old one. At the same
time the temptation to loot Church property and the habit
of doing so had appeared and was growing; and this rapidly
created a vested interest in promoting the change in
religion.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18742
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am

+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36728
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

User avatar
gaining_age
What's-his-name - President: Devo Fan Club Intl
What's-his-name - President: Devo Fan Club Intl
Posts: 15414
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: sun soaked Arizona

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by gaining_age » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:44 am

coco wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:12 am
Please note that CPS posts do not count as scholarly references.
Noted.
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

User avatar
tuttle
Theology Room Mod
Theology Room Mod
Posts: 12536
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by tuttle » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:19 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:44 am
coco wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:12 am
Please note that CPS posts do not count as scholarly references.
Noted.
Footnoted.
"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
FredS
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Posts: 20511
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:37 pm

As this topic slowly circles the drain to the Catholic v Protestant debate, let us remember that Jo has not asked for opinions on the merit or lack thereof of the reformation. He's simply asked for some resources appropriate for a teenagers study.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36728
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:51 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:37 pm
As this topic slowly circles the drain to the Catholic v Protestant debate, let us remember that Jo has not asked for opinions on the merit or lack thereof of the reformation. He's simply asked for some resources appropriate for a teenagers study.
It helps to have a narrative framework, then find sources to back it up.

Anyhow, I am the only one thus far to provide a Catholic link -- as requested in the OP.

If Sir Moose's link to that Calvinist site is useful, then the kid can make a paper out of it.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

User avatar
FredS
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Posts: 20511
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:01 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:51 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:37 pm
As this topic slowly circles the drain to the Catholic v Protestant debate, let us remember that Jo has not asked for opinions on the merit or lack thereof of the reformation. He's simply asked for some resources appropriate for a teenagers study.
It helps to have a narrative framework, then find sources to back it up. . .
Narrative framework? Dude, when I was a 16 year old student all I wanted were some sources I could lift a few lines from.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
infidel
kthxbai
kthxbai
Posts: 6483
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:00 pm

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by infidel » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:07 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:01 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:51 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:37 pm
As this topic slowly circles the drain to the Catholic v Protestant debate, let us remember that Jo has not asked for opinions on the merit or lack thereof of the reformation. He's simply asked for some resources appropriate for a teenagers study.
It helps to have a narrative framework, then find sources to back it up. . .
Narrative framework? Dude, when I was a 16 year old student all I wanted were some sources I could lift a few lines from.
That's just newspeak for "make up your mind what you believe and then cherrypick the sources that support you".
Inadvertently emboldening the cause of naïve Evolutionism since 2016.

"Who the hell ponders placentas? Dude, you're a freak of nature." - DepartedLight

"One man's saint is another man's infidel." - hugodrax

"Total. Freaking. Win." - Skip

User avatar
gaining_age
What's-his-name - President: Devo Fan Club Intl
What's-his-name - President: Devo Fan Club Intl
Posts: 15414
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: sun soaked Arizona

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by gaining_age » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:21 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:01 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:51 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:37 pm
As this topic slowly circles the drain to the Catholic v Protestant debate, let us remember that Jo has not asked for opinions on the merit or lack thereof of the reformation. He's simply asked for some resources appropriate for a teenagers study.
It helps to have a narrative framework, then find sources to back it up. . .
Narrative framework? Dude, when I was a 16 year old student all I wanted were some sources I could lift a few lines from.
A few lines?
Are you a magician? Because whenever I look at you, everyone else disappears!

Are you a camera? Because every time I look at you, I smile.

I'm not a photographer, but I can picture me and you together.
...


G
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36728
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:41 pm

infidel wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:07 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:01 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:51 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:37 pm
As this topic slowly circles the drain to the Catholic v Protestant debate, let us remember that Jo has not asked for opinions on the merit or lack thereof of the reformation. He's simply asked for some resources appropriate for a teenagers study.
It helps to have a narrative framework, then find sources to back it up. . .
Narrative framework? Dude, when I was a 16 year old student all I wanted were some sources I could lift a few lines from.
That's just newspeak for "make up your mind what you believe and then cherrypick the sources that support you".
I know that this is abused.

But our education is so poor, in general. If a kid doesn't know that capitalism and socialism came from Protestant culture, he likely won't trip over the significant comments as he peruses his sources.

And if his only knowledge of the Middle Ages comes from Monty Python, he won't know what was lost during the revolution.

Our own cultural mythology is very confused on the Reformation. We know that many early settlers came here for religious freedom. We have kids drawing pictures of the first Thanksgiving, and yet we teach them draw the Pilgrims as if they were the Puritans from whom they were fleeing!

Did you never wonder how an Irish lass like Scarlett O'Hara ended up in antebellum Georgia?
Or why the Late Blight affected potatoes all over Europe, but only Ireland suffered a famine?
All consequences of the English Reformation.

The Reformation was so much more than "some people just wanted to read the Bible for themselves, and the mean old Catholic Church wouldn't let them."

Here are some useful links: Wikipedia's List English Martyrs.
Each name is a link to the individual's entry.

John Fisher and Thomas More are the first two, in 1535.
There were several in 1679 & 1680... the last ones. Almost 150 years of Reformation rule.

There is also a list of Protestant Martyrs. Just be mindful that Protestants were executed by rival Protestant regimes.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

User avatar
FredS
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Posts: 20511
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:57 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:41 pm
But our education is so poor, in general. If a kid doesn't know that capitalism and socialism came from Protestant culture, he likely won't trip over the significant comments as he peruses his sources.

And if his only knowledge of the Middle Ages comes from Monty Python, he won't know what was lost during the revolution.
Image
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
Rusty
In Memoriam
Posts: 25059
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Beelzebub's Rare Tobacco Emporium

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Rusty » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. To whom would these benefits apply? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. This is perhaps the rudimentary step in literacy. So over 90% of population of Europe could not even write their own name. Such is the measure of Catholic public education. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.

gush.. gush ...LOL!
Last edited by Rusty on Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You're out of the woods
You're out of the dark
You're out of the night
Step into the sun
Step into the light

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36728
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm

Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

Post Reply