Lead us not into temptation

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Lead us not into temptation

Post by tuttle » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:36 am

The Catholic Herald wrote: The line, which is traditionally translated into English as “And lead us not into temptation”, was recently changed in French to say “do not let us enter into temptation.”
.......

the Pope said the traditional phrasing is “not a good translation”.

“I am the one who falls. It’s not him pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen,” he said. “A father doesn’t do that, a father helps you to get up immediately. It’s Satan who leads us into temptation, that’s his department.”
For fairness, other sites render the French translation as "do not let us fall into temptation".

Whether I'm allowed to have a beef or not, I don't have a one if the Pope saying this means he wants to change anything. I've seen sites saying he wants to make this change and other sites that claim he's just commenting on the new rendering and no changes will occur. Again, I don't care.

What did get to me was that the Pope said "lead us not into temptation" is "not a good translation". That is a troubling statement because it is a very good translation. I understand his theological reasonings and his concern that it can be confusing or jarring to the modern reader/hearer/pray-er. But this isn't a bad translation.

Here is an excellent article by a translator in Italian and English and a Catholic to boot, Anthony Esolen, in favor of the traditional translation: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusi ... rds-prayer
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Del » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:02 am

This is the old argument of literal translation v. dynamic translation. It is a worthy discussion.

I have no objection to the French bishops' decision to use a dynamic translation. They suffer with a much more secular and uncatechized culture. Perhaps they see a teachable moment here about how our loving Father relates to us.

It is not surprising that Francis favors a looser translation. That seems to be his attitude toward most things.

Note that the Catholic Herald article says that Francis would like to see the Italian translation changed. Francis favors letting local bishop conferences decide what is best for their own regions. He is not likely to call for a world-wide reckoning.

In the English speaking world, Catholics suffered with a dynamic translation for the Mass for 40 years. It was very "1970's." It was goofy and dumbed down to an extraordinary degree. Most egregiously, it translated the common response of "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you."

In 2011, we finally instituted a new English translation, one that is far more accurate and beautiful. We love it.

So forgive us, Pope Francis, if we are not excited about dumbing down the traditional translation of the Lord's Prayer. We'd rather hear some great sermons on "The Seven Petitions of the Our Father," and lots more solid and challenging catechesis. Please!
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 am

Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:02 am
This is the old argument of literal translation v. dynamic translation. It is a worthy discussion.

I have no objection to the French bishops' decision to use a dynamic translation. They suffer with a much more secular and uncatechized culture. Perhaps they see a teachable moment here about how our loving Father relates to us.

It is not surprising that Francis favors a looser translation. That seems to be his attitude toward most things.

Note that the Catholic Herald article says that Francis would like to see the Italian translation changed. Francis favors letting local bishop conferences decide what is best for their own regions. He is not likely to call for a world-wide reckoning.

In the English speaking world, Catholics suffered with a dynamic translation for the Mass for 40 years. It was very "1970's." It was goofy and dumbed down to an extraordinary degree. Most egregiously, it translated the common response of "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you."

In 2011, we finally instituted a new English translation, one that is far more accurate and beautiful. We love it.

So forgive us, Pope Francis, if we are not excited about dumbing down the traditional translation of the Lord's Prayer. We'd rather hear some great sermons on "The Seven Petitions of the Our Father," and lots more solid and challenging catechesis. Please!
You don't speak for me, you bald blowhard. Stop saying "we."
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Del » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:20 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:02 am
This is the old argument of literal translation v. dynamic translation. It is a worthy discussion.

I have no objection to the French bishops' decision to use a dynamic translation. They suffer with a much more secular and uncatechized culture. Perhaps they see a teachable moment here about how our loving Father relates to us.

It is not surprising that Francis favors a looser translation. That seems to be his attitude toward most things.

Note that the Catholic Herald article says that Francis would like to see the Italian translation changed. Francis favors letting local bishop conferences decide what is best for their own regions. He is not likely to call for a world-wide reckoning.

In the English speaking world, Catholics suffered with a dynamic translation for the Mass for 40 years. It was very "1970's." It was goofy and dumbed down to an extraordinary degree. Most egregiously, it translated the common response of "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you."

In 2011, we finally instituted a new English translation, one that is far more accurate and beautiful. We love it.

So forgive us, Pope Francis, if we are not excited about dumbing down the traditional translation of the Lord's Prayer. We'd rather hear some great sermons on "The Seven Petitions of the Our Father," and lots more solid and challenging catechesis. Please!
You don't speak for me, you bald blowhard. Stop saying "we."
I speak for the many. Not for all.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by gaining_age » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:25 am

Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:20 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:02 am
This is the old argument of literal translation v. dynamic translation. It is a worthy discussion.

I have no objection to the French bishops' decision to use a dynamic translation. They suffer with a much more secular and uncatechized culture. Perhaps they see a teachable moment here about how our loving Father relates to us.

It is not surprising that Francis favors a looser translation. That seems to be his attitude toward most things.

Note that the Catholic Herald article says that Francis would like to see the Italian translation changed. Francis favors letting local bishop conferences decide what is best for their own regions. He is not likely to call for a world-wide reckoning.

In the English speaking world, Catholics suffered with a dynamic translation for the Mass for 40 years. It was very "1970's." It was goofy and dumbed down to an extraordinary degree. Most egregiously, it translated the common response of "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you."

In 2011, we finally instituted a new English translation, one that is far more accurate and beautiful. We love it.

So forgive us, Pope Francis, if we are not excited about dumbing down the traditional translation of the Lord's Prayer. We'd rather hear some great sermons on "The Seven Petitions of the Our Father," and lots more solid and challenging catechesis. Please!
You don't speak for me, you bald blowhard. Stop saying "we."
I speak for the many. Not for all.
Do you speak for the trees?

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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:47 am

gaining_age wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:25 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:20 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:02 am
This is the old argument of literal translation v. dynamic translation. It is a worthy discussion.

I have no objection to the French bishops' decision to use a dynamic translation. They suffer with a much more secular and uncatechized culture. Perhaps they see a teachable moment here about how our loving Father relates to us.

It is not surprising that Francis favors a looser translation. That seems to be his attitude toward most things.

Note that the Catholic Herald article says that Francis would like to see the Italian translation changed. Francis favors letting local bishop conferences decide what is best for their own regions. He is not likely to call for a world-wide reckoning.

In the English speaking world, Catholics suffered with a dynamic translation for the Mass for 40 years. It was very "1970's." It was goofy and dumbed down to an extraordinary degree. Most egregiously, it translated the common response of "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you."

In 2011, we finally instituted a new English translation, one that is far more accurate and beautiful. We love it.

So forgive us, Pope Francis, if we are not excited about dumbing down the traditional translation of the Lord's Prayer. We'd rather hear some great sermons on "The Seven Petitions of the Our Father," and lots more solid and challenging catechesis. Please!
You don't speak for me, you bald blowhard. Stop saying "we."
I speak for the many. Not for all.
Do you speak for the trees?

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Thankfully, no. The Pope speaks for the trees. Del speaks for 12 dudes at his local KofC who let their figurative hair down after a few beers and go all "Deus lo Vult!" for a few hours before going home and meekly apologizing to their wives for being late.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:19 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:36 am
The Catholic Herald wrote: The line, which is traditionally translated into English as “And lead us not into temptation”, was recently changed in French to say “do not let us enter into temptation.”
.......

the Pope said the traditional phrasing is “not a good translation”.

“I am the one who falls. It’s not him pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen,” he said. “A father doesn’t do that, a father helps you to get up immediately. It’s Satan who leads us into temptation, that’s his department.”
For fairness, other sites render the French translation as "do not let us fall into temptation".

Whether I'm allowed to have a beef or not, I don't have a one if the Pope saying this means he wants to change anything. I've seen sites saying he wants to make this change and other sites that claim he's just commenting on the new rendering and no changes will occur. Again, I don't care.

What did get to me was that the Pope said "lead us not into temptation" is "not a good translation". That is a troubling statement because it is a very good translation. I understand his theological reasonings and his concern that it can be confusing or jarring to the modern reader/hearer/pray-er. But this isn't a bad translation.

Here is an excellent article by a translator in Italian and English and a Catholic to boot, Anthony Esolen, in favor of the traditional translation: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusi ... rds-prayer
Thanks, tuttle. Meandering through that site now.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by tuttle » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:30 am

Del wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:02 am
This is the old argument of literal translation v. dynamic translation. It is a worthy discussion.

I have no objection to the French bishops' decision to use a dynamic translation. They suffer with a much more secular and uncatechized culture. Perhaps they see a teachable moment here about how our loving Father relates to us.

It is not surprising that Francis favors a looser translation. That seems to be his attitude toward most things.

Note that the Catholic Herald article says that Francis would like to see the Italian translation changed. Francis favors letting local bishop conferences decide what is best for their own regions. He is not likely to call for a world-wide reckoning.

In the English speaking world, Catholics suffered with a dynamic translation for the Mass for 40 years. It was very "1970's." It was goofy and dumbed down to an extraordinary degree. Most egregiously, it translated the common response of "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you."

In 2011, we finally instituted a new English translation, one that is far more accurate and beautiful. We love it.

So forgive us, Pope Francis, if we are not excited about dumbing down the traditional translation of the Lord's Prayer. We'd rather hear some great sermons on "The Seven Petitions of the Our Father," and lots more solid and challenging catechesis. Please!
Like I said, I'm cool with the reasons. I think the dynamic translations I've come across are helpful in a way...but this isn't quite the old literal v dynamic debate. It's about the accuracy or soundness of a certain translation. The Pope flat out said that is isn't a good translation...when in reality, insofar as translations go, this is a pretty darn good translation.

I'm all for allowing theology to help you interpret scriptures, and lend even help in aiding a translation. But in this case, the Pope is letting his (correct) theology about God's love for us steamroll over an accurate translation. While it may aid in softening up a secularist culture, in the long run, this type of thing does more harm than good. Not only does it cut a path toward changing translations that don't jive with our theology (good or bad) but it also does a severe disservice to the text itself. If our theology tells us that God does not lead us into temptation, then we should meet this accurate translation that asks God not to lead us into temptation and wrestle with it. Avoiding it or changing it will only undermine it in the long run, especially with the secularists. They will likely believe (the ones who are looking) that if Christians are okay with bending the accurate text in order to more fully line up with one's particular theology then fidelity to the text is up in the air.

We already see liberal Christianity doing this to texts to fit their own theology. That's not to say the Pope is being a liberal. With this being the 500th year of the Reformation, maybe he's channeling a bit of Martin Luther who wanted to nix the book of James for his own theological reasons. :wink:
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Cleon » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:50 am

I was going to post something like, "the second half of that petition balances out the second half as is customary", but the author in your linked article said it well.
Third, if we consider a Semitic substrate it becomes more likely, not less, that the Greek me eisenenkeis hemas eis peirasmon is an exact rendering of what would be a verse of psalmic poetry, as I believe all of the Lord’s Prayer is. We would have A + B + C, where A is the negative, B is a causative verb (in Hebrew, “lead” = “to cause to go,” as in Psalm 23) with affixes for second-person singular subject and third-person plural object, and C is “into-temptation.” Such a verse or half-verse would be familiar to every one of Jesus's listeners, and they would have expected it to be completed by a second half. And so it is, in another A + B + C: “but + free-us + from-evil,” each element in correspondence with its partner in the previous half.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Goose55 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 am

The Lord's Prayer is so beautiful. And so concise and to the point.

"Leadeth us not into temptation" sounds as though God can tempt people. So, I remembered this passage from the New Testament book of James....

James 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Joshoowah » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 am

Let us talk briefly about the differences between a dynamic and literal translation. A dynamic translation in and of itself can be a good thing for passages that are not translatable into English. For instance, ancient idioms and phrases that would not make much sense to the modern English reader are changed to render the same or similar meaning the ancient idiom or phrase would have. Changing a key verse in the Lord's Prayer from "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us enter into temptation" is not a dynamic translation at all, as the original phrase in Greek is highly translatable into Latin, English, Arabic, Syriac, and numerous other languages without changing the integrity of the text itself, meaning that there is no reason for it to have a "dynamic" translation, particularly a translation that changes the meaning of the verse entirely.

There is no point in using a dynamic translation unless the original rendering cannot be rendered into the given language, otherwise we risk corrupting the text to fit our own ends. This is my issue with a number of English translations that opt for a more paraphrastic approach. A balance is key, but neither literal nor dynamic translations should be used on texts where there is no need. The particular line in the Lord's Prayer is one of those places. The typical English rendering is correct in its translation of the Greek text.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by UncleBob » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:33 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 am
Let us talk briefly about the differences between a dynamic and literal translation. A dynamic translation in and of itself can be a good thing for passages that are not translatable into English. For instance, ancient idioms and phrases that would not make much sense to the modern English reader are changed to render the same or similar meaning the ancient idiom or phrase would have. Changing a key verse in the Lord's Prayer from "lead us not into temptation" to "do not let us enter into temptation" is not a dynamic translation at all, as the original phrase in Greek is highly translatable into Latin, English, Arabic, Syriac, and numerous other languages without changing the integrity of the text itself, meaning that there is no reason for it to have a "dynamic" translation, particularly a translation that changes the meaning of the verse entirely.

There is no point in using a dynamic translation unless the original rendering cannot be rendered into the given language, otherwise we risk corrupting the text to fit our own ends. This is my issue with a number of English translations that opt for a more paraphrastic approach. A balance is key, but neither literal nor dynamic translations should be used on texts where there is no need. The particular line in the Lord's Prayer is one of those places. The typical English rendering is correct in its translation of the Greek text.
Yes. This.

Plus, this understanding in consistent with the contemporary worldview.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by infidel » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm

To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:40 pm

infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm
To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
We could always throw in the secret prayer of most of us: "punish me not for the times I have fallen, but rather give me a Mercedes, a lot of dough, and 100,000 Instagram followers."
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by infidel » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:51 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm
To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
We could always throw in the secret prayer of most of us: "punish me not for the times I have fallen, but rather give me a Mercedes, a lot of dough, and 100,000 Instagram followers."
Ugh no. I'd be happy just having my debts forgiven.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:04 pm

infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm
To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
We could always throw in the secret prayer of most of us: "punish me not for the times I have fallen, but rather give me a Mercedes, a lot of dough, and 100,000 Instagram followers."
Ugh no. I'd be happy just having my debts forgiven.
How are you at forgiving those who owe you?
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by infidel » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:38 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:04 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm
To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
We could always throw in the secret prayer of most of us: "punish me not for the times I have fallen, but rather give me a Mercedes, a lot of dough, and 100,000 Instagram followers."
Ugh no. I'd be happy just having my debts forgiven.
How are you at forgiving those who owe you?
Pretty good I'd say. I can only think of a few people who I've ever felt owed me something, and I've given those over to God some time ago. Am I supposed to forgive them in person too? I couldn't track down the few that I was really miffed about even if I wanted to - not without hiring an investigator at least, and whatever it was they owed me was far less than that would cost.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:23 pm

infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:38 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:04 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:51 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:40 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm
To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
We could always throw in the secret prayer of most of us: "punish me not for the times I have fallen, but rather give me a Mercedes, a lot of dough, and 100,000 Instagram followers."
Ugh no. I'd be happy just having my debts forgiven.
How are you at forgiving those who owe you?
Pretty good I'd say. I can only think of a few people who I've ever felt owed me something, and I've given those over to God some time ago. Am I supposed to forgive them in person too? I couldn't track down the few that I was really miffed about even if I wanted to - not without hiring an investigator at least, and whatever it was they owed me was far less than that would cost.
Great sign. By my reading, you only get the demit on your debts if you demit the debts of others. You have a chance.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Jake » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:15 pm

...lead us away from temptation..." for a long time, when I think of it and am not reciting out of habit, this is how I've said that phrase.
I was pretty tickled to learn that the pope had a similar thought.

I'd always felt like saying "lead us not into temptation" sounds like God has to take some blame or responsibility for my mis-steps, and that has never felt right to me.

I like this pope.
"It was a bit awkward at first but I soon got to be perfectly at home in men's clothes. " -- Calamity Jane

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Cleon
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Cleon » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:10 pm

This thread needs a poll.
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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