Mary Alone

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Jocose » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:32 pm

The very thing it was required to have shown.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Ah! Theology! Is there anything good you can't destroy?

Quod erat demonstrandum.
That's probably why Pilate didn't stick around to hear Jesus' answer to his question, "What is Truth?"

Relativism is so much more congenial.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by UncleBob » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Ah! Theology! Is there anything good you can't destroy?

Quod erat demonstrandum.
That's probably why Pilate didn't stick around to hear Jesus' answer to his question, "What is Truth?"

Relativism is so much more congenial.
Ha! All theology is relativism facilitated by argument (riddled with fallacies) and birthed in capricious dogma (as in "I choose this dogma because it seems right to me so now that is my sacred cow"). That is why there is 20 quintillion flavors of it. If any position or teaching were self-evident, or provable, there would be none of this asinine foolishness. There is only the relativism of "how closely do they agree with me." All of it can only be discussed calmly with the qualification of, "From my perspective..." Of course, on CPS this is most always an unstated premise which only leads to more strife. The irony is that very strife is offered and normalized as some sort of "proof" for the veracity of one's sacred cow.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Gabriel » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:27 pm

Hugo, time to back up. The only one being a jerk here is you. That was totally uncalled for.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:26 am

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Ah! Theology! Is there anything good you can't destroy?

Quod erat demonstrandum.
That's probably why Pilate didn't stick around to hear Jesus' answer to his question, "What is Truth?"

Relativism is so much more congenial.
Ha! All theology is relativism facilitated by argument (riddled with fallacies) and birthed in capricious dogma (as in "I choose this dogma because it seems right to me so now that is my sacred cow"). That is why there is 20 quintillion flavors of it. If any position or teaching were self-evident, or provable, there would be none of this asinine foolishness. There is only the relativism of "how closely do they agree with me." All of it can only be discussed calmly with the qualification of, "From my perspective..." Of course, on CPS this is most always an unstated premise which only leads to more strife. The irony is that very strife is offered and normalized as some sort of "proof" for the veracity of one's sacred cow.
Theology is much like science and economics -- where theories are neither self-evident nor provable, but we can gather experiences that refine our understanding.

To be sure, many false theories persist.... such as Marxism in economics. And people are inclined to deny data that does not fit their dogmas, for as long as possible. But sooner or later, communist regimes fail and global warming happens.

Yet no reasonable person insists that the study and practice of science or economics is a waste of humanity's time and effort.

The self-evident fact remains that God has revealed himself to us. He came to earth, in the person of Jesus Christ. He established a Church, for us and for our salvation. Denying this is like denying global warming or cryptocurrency.

Because of this reality, wise men will contemplate it. We will engage joyfully in discussing the historical disputes.

We are unphased by fools in ivory towers who deny the worthiness of this endeavor. After all, Jesus promised us that the world would not understand.... and make us suffer for it.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:48 am

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:04 pm
Ah! Theology! Is there anything good you can't destroy?

Quod erat demonstrandum.
Jocose wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:32 pm
The very thing it was required to have shown.
This thread started with a reflection, during Holy Week, that all had abandoned faith and hope during the three days that Christ lay in the tomb. All -- save for Mary. She alone believed the truth, and carried the faith of Christ's resurrection in her heart. For those few days, the entire Church Militant rested within just the one person.

We batted that idea around a bit, and reached a sort of consensus that it could well be true -- given what we know about all of the persons involved. We can't prove it, of course, without some assistance from divine revelation. The idea is certainly good enough and beautiful enough to ponder in our hearts.

Does anyone regret the original discussion?
========================================

Our problem, at CPS, is that we let every discussion devolve into the same old, unsettled questions. This is the stuff that we really want to talk about, hoping that a helpful believer from the other side of the divide can provide some insight as to why there is so much division between us.

We care, because we all know that Jesus and St. Paul both condemned the same factions and divisions in which we find ourselves.

We also know that the Truth matters, and that every prophet and saint and Savior in the Bible would condemn us as fools if we don't try to sort it out by seeking truth.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 am

Off Topic
+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:26 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:22 pm
Ha! All theology is relativism facilitated by argument (riddled with fallacies) and birthed in capricious dogma (as in "I choose this dogma because it seems right to me so now that is my sacred cow"). That is why there is 20 quintillion flavors of it. If any position or teaching were self-evident, or provable, there would be none of this asinine foolishness. There is only the relativism of "how closely do they agree with me." All of it can only be discussed calmly with the qualification of, "From my perspective..." Of course, on CPS this is most always an unstated premise which only leads to more strife. The irony is that very strife is offered and normalized as some sort of "proof" for the veracity of one's sacred cow.
Theology is much like science and economics -- where theories are neither self-evident nor provable, but we can gather experiences that refine our understanding.

To be sure, many false theories persist.... such as Marxism in economics. And people are inclined to deny data that does not fit their dogmas, for as long as possible. But sooner or later, communist regimes fail and global warming happens.

Yet no reasonable person insists that the study and practice of science or economics is a waste of humanity's time and effort.

The self-evident fact remains that God has revealed himself to us. He came to earth, in the person of Jesus Christ. He established a Church, for us and for our salvation. Denying this is like denying global warming or cryptocurrency.

Because of this reality, wise men will contemplate it. We will engage joyfully in discussing the historical disputes.

We are unphased by fools in ivory towers who deny the worthiness of this endeavor. After all, Jesus promised us that the world would not understand.... and make us suffer for it.
I believe that Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors — particularly nos. 3 & 9 — deals with this sort of denial.
Pope BI. Pius IX wrote: Image

3. Human reason, without any reference whatsoever to God, is the sole arbiter of truth and falsehood, and of good and evil; it is law to itself, and suffices, by its natural force, to secure the welfare of men and of nations. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.

9. All the dogmas of the Christian religion are indiscriminately the object of natural science or philosophy, and human reason, enlightened solely in an historical way, is able, by its own natural strength and principles, to attain to the true science of even the most abstruse dogmas; provided only that such dogmas be proposed to reason itself as its object. — Letters to the Archbishop of Munich, “Gravissimas inter,” Dec. 11, 1862, and “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.
Last edited by wosbald on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by UncleBob » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:59 am

Sorry wosbald. I hit the wrong button and edited your post by accident.

My point was, in doing so, that your quote is essentially this: See? "I choose this dogma because it seems right to me so now that is my sacred cow".
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:10 am

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:59 am
Sorry wosbald. I hit the wrong button and edited your post by accident.

[…]
No prob, yo. :thumbsup:




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:11 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 am
Off Topic
+JMJ+
Pope BI. Pius IX wrote: Image

3. Human reason, without any reference whatsoever to God, is the sole arbiter of truth and falsehood, and of good and evil; it is law to itself, and suffices, by its natural force, to secure the welfare of men and of nations. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.

9. All the dogmas of the Christian religion are indiscriminately the object of natural science or philosophy, and human reason, enlightened solely in an historical way, is able, by its own natural strength and principles, to attain to the true science of even the most abstruse dogmas; provided only that such dogmas be proposed to reason itself as its object. — Letters to the Archbishop of Munich, “Gravissimas inter,” Dec. 11, 1862, and “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.
What do you make of this, Wozzie-bear?

We know that Natural Reason, all by itself, can bring us to great many truths. We can know that God exists, by necessity proven by our own existence, and we can know moral good and evil. We don't need a religion for this. (Point #3: Natural Reason is a "law to itself")

But... As St. Thomas points out, Natural Reason is very inefficient. The Truth can be known.... but only by a few who are very wise, and after a very long time (centuries), and with a great many errors mixed in. Consider Socrates, Plato, Aristotle.

So we need revelation to guide us. With the Church and the Scriptures, we enjoy widespread wisdom and peace and good moral judgment, all in accord with Natural Reason. Reason and revelation come from the same God.

But Natural Reason is still very powerful, and we can use it to "penetrate the veil" of divine revelation, seeking deeper understanding of what has been revealed. (Point #9: We can use the teachings of revelation as data for the work of Natural Reason.)
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:14 am

UncleBob wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:59 am
Sorry wosbald. I hit the wrong button and edited your post by accident.

My point was, in doing so, that your quote is essentially this: See? "I choose this dogma because it seems right to me so now that is my sacred cow".
Does everything you read mean that to you?

Whenever an opinion is expressed, is that what you hear?

I ask this with genuine concern for you opinion.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Cleon » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:32 am

Sorry, Hugo. Sorry guys. No offense intended whatsoever. My intent was for some friendly banter and a little fun encouragement for Del and wos.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:33 am

I don't really understand my newly foisted upon me moderation power buttons just yet. But if this is for real, I'm for real going to moderate this place like I moderate my yard. Rarely to not very often.

But I might have to put up a 'No OtherMods Allowed' sign since it seems the only rabble-rouser dinks here are OtherMods.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:55 am

Off Topic
+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:11 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 am
Pope BI. Pius IX wrote: Image

3. Human reason, without any reference whatsoever to God, is the sole arbiter of truth and falsehood, and of good and evil; it is law to itself, and suffices, by its natural force, to secure the welfare of men and of nations. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.

9. All the dogmas of the Christian religion are indiscriminately the object of natural science or philosophy, and human reason, enlightened solely in an historical way, is able, by its own natural strength and principles, to attain to the true science of even the most abstruse dogmas; provided only that such dogmas be proposed to reason itself as its object. — Letters to the Archbishop of Munich, “Gravissimas inter,” Dec. 11, 1862, and “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.
What do you make of this, Wozzie-bear?

[…]
I restored my original post, so you can go back and check out the context if ya needs ta.

EDIT: For the purposes of general Protestant edification (who may not be familiar with all of the exotic ways of Catholic magisterial documents), the propositions listed in the Syllabus are condemned propositions. As such, propositions such as #3 or # 9 should not be read as being affirmations. Rather, they should be read as coming as from the mouth of some impious wizard-of-smart, with the Pope standing imminently ready to deliver his Slap-Attack.




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:19 pm

Thank, Wos. Makes much more sense now.

Faith and reason belong together, as handmaidens.

Using one as a hammer to destroy the other is violently foolish.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Skip » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:46 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:33 am
I don't really understand my newly foisted upon me moderation power buttons just yet. But if this is for real, I'm for real going to moderate this place like I moderate my yard. Rarely to not very often.

But I might have to put up a 'No OtherMods Allowed' sign since it seems the only rabble-rouser dinks here are OtherMods.
Most mods are annoying, judgmental, demanding name-callers, always looking for ulterior motives behind the words and actions of others. We thought you'd fit right in.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:10 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:46 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:33 am
I don't really understand my newly foisted upon me moderation power buttons just yet. But if this is for real, I'm for real going to moderate this place like I moderate my yard. Rarely to not very often.

But I might have to put up a 'No OtherMods Allowed' sign since it seems the only rabble-rouser dinks here are OtherMods.
Most mods are annoying, judgmental, demanding name-callers, always looking for ulterior motives behind the words and actions of others. We thought you'd fit right in.
Image
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by UncleBob » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:31 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:55 am
Off Topic
+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:11 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 am
Pope BI. Pius IX wrote: Image

3. Human reason, without any reference whatsoever to God, is the sole arbiter of truth and falsehood, and of good and evil; it is law to itself, and suffices, by its natural force, to secure the welfare of men and of nations. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862.

9. All the dogmas of the Christian religion are indiscriminately the object of natural science or philosophy, and human reason, enlightened solely in an historical way, is able, by its own natural strength and principles, to attain to the true science of even the most abstruse dogmas; provided only that such dogmas be proposed to reason itself as its object. — Letters to the Archbishop of Munich, “Gravissimas inter,” Dec. 11, 1862, and “Tuas libenter,” Dec. 21, 1863.
What do you make of this, Wozzie-bear?

[…]
I restored my original post, so you can go back and check out the context if ya needs ta.

EDIT: For the purposes of general Protestant edification (who may not be familiar with all of the exotic ways of Catholic magisterial documents), the propositions listed in the Syllabus are condemned propositions. As such, propositions such as #3 or # 9 should not be read as being affirmations. Rather, they should be read as coming as from the mouth of some impious wizard-of-smart, with the Pope standing imminently ready to deliver his Slap-Attack.
Yep. And my assertion still stands.
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"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:13 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:46 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:33 am
I don't really understand my newly foisted upon me moderation power buttons just yet. But if this is for real, I'm for real going to moderate this place like I moderate my yard. Rarely to not very often.

But I might have to put up a 'No OtherMods Allowed' sign since it seems the only rabble-rouser dinks here are OtherMods.
Most mods are annoying, judgmental, demanding name-callers, always looking for ulterior motives behind the words and actions of others. We thought you'd fit right in.
Just keep us safe from the leftist trolls and thought-police.

We don't want to end up testifying before Congress, like Zuckerberg.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by j1n » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm

In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
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