tuttle wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:04 pm
Del wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:32 pm
tuttle wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:38 am
Del wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:44 pm
During those three days as Christ lay dead in the tomb, there was only one who still believed. Only one who fully understood that His death was a necessary and willing sacrifice, so that we could all participate in His resurrection.
For these three days, the entire Church of Jesus Christ subsisted in just one person: His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Are you saying that Mary's full understanding of his necessary death, willing sacrifice, and forthcoming resurrection is what qualified her to be "the entire Church of Jesus Christ" during that time?
Del wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:40 pm
There are the practical effects of living with Jesus for 33 years, and having experienced the miracles of His conception and birth.
But there is a supernatural grace at work, as well. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit revealed Himself in her when she consented to receive Christ for the world.
The Apostles had to wait until Pentecost before they could comprehend the Resurrection, after they were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. They were finally able to understand what Mary knew, all along.
Did the entire Church of Jesus Christ subsist in Mary for those three days, or until Pentecost?
Scripture tells us that the Apostles saw the empty tomb, and believed. At least, this was certainly so for Peter and John. Thomas was the last to believe, demanding that Jesus appear before him so that Thomas could touch His wounds.
In the sense that "Believers = The Church," thus Mary's solitude of faith was just for the 3 days.
Yet Scripture also tells us that the Apostles did not comprehend the magnitude of what Christ had done until Pentecost.
Ok. We're in agreement, insofar as the Apostles didn't have the ability to comprehend the full magnitude of what Christ had done until Pentecost. Although I don't know if we can know that with 100% accuracy. Perhaps they did comprehend it, but were unable to really do anything about it until the Spirit was given to them. And there's an argument that could be made that the birth of the Church didn't happen until Pentecost...but I digress.
I still am interested in your statement that for three days the Church subsisted in only
Mary for three days. I want to look at this from two angles:
First, what about the harrowing of Hell? I'm a little shaky on my Catholic doctrines (as always) but isn't it precisely those three days in which Christ descended to the realm of the dead in order to save the righteous who had died before? I would assume these souls were quite aware of Christ's sacrifice and forthcoming resurrection as Christ was proclaiming it? If this is the case is Mary really alone? And what of the thief on the cross? (I foresee that one might not include these righteous dead folk into what we call "The Church". Is that the case?)
Good point.... The angels and saints are part of the Church. Sort of ignoring all of Church Triumphant here.
The notion of "Mary Alone" is not a dogma. It is a thought for reflection. It seems very likely that there was only one convinced, believing, fully trusting member among the living human Church during those three days of despair -- and that was Mary.
This is very significant to those Christians who have a relationship with Mary -- it colors our experience of the Triduum, as we stand with Mary at the foot of the cross and wait with Mary for news of the Resurrection.
This is really why I started this thread. Not to push a dogma, but just to share a bit of the Triduum as my family lives it.
tuttle wrote:Second, and more to my initial question, I'm still hung up on Mary's understanding which gives her status as the lone member of the Church during the three days. If we're going to say that the Church of Jesus Christ wasn't born (but what, announced?) on Pentecost, and that Mary alone was the single "member" of the Church (on earth) during the three days, then we must somehow equate her knowledge with her status.
I like the ways that you are thinking here!
It makes sense to me that Mary was singular (as always) in having received the fullness of the Holy Spirit before
Pentecost. Mary was in the Upper Room with the Apostles that day... but as the Tongues of Fire embraced them, she is the only who might have heard the Spirit say, "Hello again, most favored one!"
We could say that the Church was pregnant and gestating during the ministry of Jesus.... and then bursting forth into the world as a new birth on Pentecost.
tuttle wrote:My problem is this: Jesus told his disciples that the Father has given them to him and whoever the Father gives him, he will in no way cast out. So even if the disciples scattered, or cursed and denied him during this time, are we to say that Jesus, for those three days, let go of them? Was their salvation or inclusion in the Church based on their understanding or on what Christ accomplished? I think your claim that the Church subsided in Mary alone for those three days holds some serious implications regarding the ecclesiology and soteriology.
We have enjoyed many discussions about Church and Salvation. The lines are clearly drawn. I have nothing new to offer here.
Catholics [and Protestants of the Arminian/Wesleyan/Holiness traditions] see Church and Salvation as described by Jesus, such as in the parable of the Prodigal Son. The Father continues to call us back, always ready to forgive, always hoping to restore us to His Church.
But we can leave Him as the Prodigal Son did, and we often do. Hell is heavy with Christians who turned from Christ and fell into sin. Starting with Judas, I suppose. Nothing can separate us from God's steadfast love... but we can be tempted to turn away by our own choices.
On the other hand, there is Calvin's dogma of Perseverance of the Saints
, Luther's notion that one can be both a saint and a sinner
-- at the same time! -- and a portion of American Evangelicals who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved
G.K. Chesterton — 'It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.'