Mary Alone

For those deep thinkers out there.
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Del
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:47 pm

tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:28 am
Del wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:28 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:26 am
Del wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:33 am
Look at that! A CPS thread resolved!

Final decision: Mary not alone.

Now back to your regularly scheduled migrant posts.
Dangit. :evil: You made me have to go and read one of wosbald's lengthy links about which he has no comment.
:lol:
Del wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 pm
Article says that Francis's comments were "off the cuff." Which means that he has an opinion, and the Fifth Marian Doctrine remain undefined as a dogma.

As for the purposes of CPS -- this is a vote for Mary Alone. If Mary is not "Co-Redemptrix" ("co-" is simply the Latin prefix meaning "with"), then the Redeemer has no companion Redemptrix. The New Adam doesn't have a New Eve. And Mary is left alone again.
Correct. Jesus is the only Redeemer. Jesus is the New Adam and the Church, as His Bride, is the New Eve. And insofar as Mary is part of the Church, she is certainly part of the New Eve. She's not alone. She is part of a Great (and growing) Cloud of Witnesses.
The Church has said many things about Herself through the centuries. Her own Scripture proclaims that She is the Bride of Christ, our Redeemer.

I am not aware of any teaching when the Church has called Herself "The New Eve."
==================

I know you are just having fun and yanking my chain. That's fine with me....

Eve disobeyed God, and persuaded Adam to disobey. Adam and Eve stood by the tree in their sin. They lost God's friendship, and we are born into a fallen nature that is apart from God.

Mary gave her full obedience to God's will, allowing Christ to enter the world. And He fulfilled the will of the Father by perfect obedience with His Mother at His side. Mary stood by the Tree as Christ hung upon it, together in obedience to the Father.

The Church's own Scripture proclaims that Christ is the New Adam.... and the Church assents that Mary is the New Eve.
I do have fun yanking your chain, but I'm not necessarily yanking right now.

Adam's bride is Eve. Who is the New Adam's bride? The Scriptures reveal specifically that the Church is the Bride of Christ. I'm having trouble finding where you say Scripture proclaims Mary to be the Bride of Christ (aside from, as I mentioned earlier, Mary's inclusion in the Church).
St. Paul wrote:Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
Note that marriage is rooted in a profound mystery that Paul is revealing, the husband and wife relationship is all about Christ and the Church. Also note the link back to the first man and woman: "Therefore a man shall leave, etc".
St. Paul wrote:I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
Paul, speaking to the Church at Corinth, says he betrothed them to Christ and even connects their status as the New Eve to the Old Eve by warning them against deception.
The original Adam and Eve were a husband and wife.

The New Adam and the New Eve are a Son and His Mother.
===================================================

As Paul says, the Bride of Christ can be deceived as the Serpent deceived Eve. While the Church is the Divine Bride of Christ, She is also a human institution -- chock full of sinful and disobedient humans. That was Paul's point in calling his church to repent.

The analogy of the "New Adam and New Eve" is the undoing of the disobedience of our first parents. It is an analogy. The analogy is simple:
- Adam & Eve's sin separated us from God.
- Mary's obedience and faith allowed Christ to enter the world.
- Christ's obedience and death restored our relationship with God.
- the obedience of the New Eve and the New Adam undid the disobedience of our first parents.

By calling Mary the "New Eve," we are simply acknowledging her unique role in salvation history. We see that she belongs in a special class of historical biblical figures: with Abraham & Moses & John the Baptist, those who were specifically called and tested for their obedience.

Your tradition does not allow members to speak about Mary in this way. But we really don't have an argument. You believe all of this.
===================================================

So then, what is the Church's role in salvation?..... The Church is way that we each enter into that Salvation is by our own obedient participation in Christ's Church. The Church is the Divine Hospital for the healing of sinners.
G.K. Chesterton — 'It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.'

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:34 am

Del wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:47 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:28 am
Del wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:28 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:26 am
Del wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:33 am
Look at that! A CPS thread resolved!

Final decision: Mary not alone.

Now back to your regularly scheduled migrant posts.
Dangit. :evil: You made me have to go and read one of wosbald's lengthy links about which he has no comment.
:lol:
Del wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 pm
Article says that Francis's comments were "off the cuff." Which means that he has an opinion, and the Fifth Marian Doctrine remain undefined as a dogma.

As for the purposes of CPS -- this is a vote for Mary Alone. If Mary is not "Co-Redemptrix" ("co-" is simply the Latin prefix meaning "with"), then the Redeemer has no companion Redemptrix. The New Adam doesn't have a New Eve. And Mary is left alone again.
Correct. Jesus is the only Redeemer. Jesus is the New Adam and the Church, as His Bride, is the New Eve. And insofar as Mary is part of the Church, she is certainly part of the New Eve. She's not alone. She is part of a Great (and growing) Cloud of Witnesses.
The Church has said many things about Herself through the centuries. Her own Scripture proclaims that She is the Bride of Christ, our Redeemer.

I am not aware of any teaching when the Church has called Herself "The New Eve."
==================

I know you are just having fun and yanking my chain. That's fine with me....

Eve disobeyed God, and persuaded Adam to disobey. Adam and Eve stood by the tree in their sin. They lost God's friendship, and we are born into a fallen nature that is apart from God.

Mary gave her full obedience to God's will, allowing Christ to enter the world. And He fulfilled the will of the Father by perfect obedience with His Mother at His side. Mary stood by the Tree as Christ hung upon it, together in obedience to the Father.

The Church's own Scripture proclaims that Christ is the New Adam.... and the Church assents that Mary is the New Eve.
I do have fun yanking your chain, but I'm not necessarily yanking right now.

Adam's bride is Eve. Who is the New Adam's bride? The Scriptures reveal specifically that the Church is the Bride of Christ. I'm having trouble finding where you say Scripture proclaims Mary to be the Bride of Christ (aside from, as I mentioned earlier, Mary's inclusion in the Church).
St. Paul wrote:Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
Note that marriage is rooted in a profound mystery that Paul is revealing, the husband and wife relationship is all about Christ and the Church. Also note the link back to the first man and woman: "Therefore a man shall leave, etc".
St. Paul wrote:I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
Paul, speaking to the Church at Corinth, says he betrothed them to Christ and even connects their status as the New Eve to the Old Eve by warning them against deception.
The original Adam and Eve were a husband and wife.

The New Adam and the New Eve are a Son and His Mother.
===================================================

As Paul says, the Bride of Christ can be deceived as the Serpent deceived Eve. While the Church is the Divine Bride of Christ, She is also a human institution -- chock full of sinful and disobedient humans. That was Paul's point in calling his church to repent.

The analogy of the "New Adam and New Eve" is the undoing of the disobedience of our first parents. It is an analogy. The analogy is simple:
- Adam & Eve's sin separated us from God.
- Mary's obedience and faith allowed Christ to enter the world.
- Christ's obedience and death restored our relationship with God.
- the obedience of the New Eve and the New Adam undid the disobedience of our first parents.

By calling Mary the "New Eve," we are simply acknowledging her unique role in salvation history. We see that she belongs in a special class of historical biblical figures: with Abraham & Moses & John the Baptist, those who were specifically called and tested for their obedience.

Your tradition does not allow members to speak about Mary in this way. But we really don't have an argument. You believe all of this.
===================================================

So then, what is the Church's role in salvation?..... The Church is way that we each enter into that Salvation is by our own obedient participation in Christ's Church. The Church is the Divine Hospital for the healing of sinners.
I mean, I hear what you are saying and I can track with your reasoning and in some ways I have no issue thinking of Mary as a type of Eve. I just don't think it is as strong an argument from Scripture as you think, and that a stronger argument could be made that the Bride of Christ is the New Eve. But I don't want to be dogmatic about it, I'm just saying it's a natural link.
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Del
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:09 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:34 am
Del wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:47 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:28 am
Del wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:28 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:26 am
Del wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:33 am
Look at that! A CPS thread resolved!

Final decision: Mary not alone.

Now back to your regularly scheduled migrant posts.
Dangit. :evil: You made me have to go and read one of wosbald's lengthy links about which he has no comment.
:lol:
Del wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 pm
Article says that Francis's comments were "off the cuff." Which means that he has an opinion, and the Fifth Marian Doctrine remain undefined as a dogma.

As for the purposes of CPS -- this is a vote for Mary Alone. If Mary is not "Co-Redemptrix" ("co-" is simply the Latin prefix meaning "with"), then the Redeemer has no companion Redemptrix. The New Adam doesn't have a New Eve. And Mary is left alone again.
Correct. Jesus is the only Redeemer. Jesus is the New Adam and the Church, as His Bride, is the New Eve. And insofar as Mary is part of the Church, she is certainly part of the New Eve. She's not alone. She is part of a Great (and growing) Cloud of Witnesses.
The Church has said many things about Herself through the centuries. Her own Scripture proclaims that She is the Bride of Christ, our Redeemer.

I am not aware of any teaching when the Church has called Herself "The New Eve."
==================

I know you are just having fun and yanking my chain. That's fine with me....

Eve disobeyed God, and persuaded Adam to disobey. Adam and Eve stood by the tree in their sin. They lost God's friendship, and we are born into a fallen nature that is apart from God.

Mary gave her full obedience to God's will, allowing Christ to enter the world. And He fulfilled the will of the Father by perfect obedience with His Mother at His side. Mary stood by the Tree as Christ hung upon it, together in obedience to the Father.

The Church's own Scripture proclaims that Christ is the New Adam.... and the Church assents that Mary is the New Eve.
I do have fun yanking your chain, but I'm not necessarily yanking right now.

Adam's bride is Eve. Who is the New Adam's bride? The Scriptures reveal specifically that the Church is the Bride of Christ. I'm having trouble finding where you say Scripture proclaims Mary to be the Bride of Christ (aside from, as I mentioned earlier, Mary's inclusion in the Church).
St. Paul wrote:Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
Note that marriage is rooted in a profound mystery that Paul is revealing, the husband and wife relationship is all about Christ and the Church. Also note the link back to the first man and woman: "Therefore a man shall leave, etc".
St. Paul wrote:I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
Paul, speaking to the Church at Corinth, says he betrothed them to Christ and even connects their status as the New Eve to the Old Eve by warning them against deception.
The original Adam and Eve were a husband and wife.

The New Adam and the New Eve are a Son and His Mother.
===================================================

As Paul says, the Bride of Christ can be deceived as the Serpent deceived Eve. While the Church is the Divine Bride of Christ, She is also a human institution -- chock full of sinful and disobedient humans. That was Paul's point in calling his church to repent.

The analogy of the "New Adam and New Eve" is the undoing of the disobedience of our first parents. It is an analogy. The analogy is simple:
- Adam & Eve's sin separated us from God.
- Mary's obedience and faith allowed Christ to enter the world.
- Christ's obedience and death restored our relationship with God.
- the obedience of the New Eve and the New Adam undid the disobedience of our first parents.

By calling Mary the "New Eve," we are simply acknowledging her unique role in salvation history. We see that she belongs in a special class of historical biblical figures: with Abraham & Moses & John the Baptist, those who were specifically called and tested for their obedience.

Your tradition does not allow members to speak about Mary in this way. But we really don't have an argument. You believe all of this.
===================================================

So then, what is the Church's role in salvation?..... The Church is way that we each enter into that Salvation is by our own obedient participation in Christ's Church. The Church is the Divine Hospital for the healing of sinners.
I mean, I hear what you are saying and I can track with your reasoning and in some ways I have no issue thinking of Mary as a type of Eve. I just don't think it is as strong an argument from Scripture as you think, and that a stronger argument could be made that the Bride of Christ is the New Eve. But I don't want to be dogmatic about it, I'm just saying it's a natural link.
there is also the difference in Tradition.

Your tradition demands that Scripture to tell you about Mary.

Our tradition understands that God revealed Himself to us through Mary. We are comfortable using our relationship with Mary to help us understand Scripture, as well as using Scripture to understand Mary.

Yada yada yada.....

Just saying that the Apostolic Church does not say of Herself that She is the New Eve. And She is not ignorant of her own Scripture.
G.K. Chesterton — 'It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.'

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:15 am

+JMJ+

Sledgehammer attack damages Guadalupe mural at LA church
Image
A Virgin of Guadalupe mural painted on tiles is seen with a destroyed face on the side of St. Elisabeth Catholic Church in the Van Nuys section of Los Angeles on Wednesday, April 28, 2021. A man used a sledgehammer to smash the face of a Virgin of Guadalupe mural and was recorded on security camera video during the attack that happened around 1:40 a.m. on April 21. (Credit: Richard Vogel/AP)

LOS ANGELES — A man used a sledgehammer last week to smash the face of a Virgin of Guadalupe mural painted on tiles at a church in Los Angeles.

The man was recorded on security camera video during the predawn attack at St. Elisabeth Catholic Church in the Van Nuys neighborhood on April 21.

The parish website posted photos of the damage and called the vandalism “one of our saddest moments” in addition to what people have endured during the coronavirus pandemic.

The Virgin of Guadalupe is considered central to Mexican identity and is widely venerated as the patron saint of the Americas.

Image
Flowers and police tape are seen in front of a smashed mural of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the side of St. Elisabeth Catholic Church in the Van Nuys section of Los Angeles, Wednesday, April 28, 2021. (Credit: Richard Vogel/AP)

Father Vito Di Marzio, the church’s pastor, led parishioners and school children “in prayer for peace, unity and order in our parish community area as well as for the person who perpetrated this sacrilegious act on our Blessed Mother,” the website said.

Sister Angelie Marie Inoferio told KTLA-TV she was devastated but that the vandalism would be used as a teaching moment for parish school children.

Image
A parishioner makes a donation in front of a smashed mural of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the side of St. Elisabeth Catholic Church in the Van Nuys section of Los Angeles on Wednesday, April 28, 2021. (Credit: Richard Vogel/AP)

“We cannot judge what is really inside of him, maybe it’s a cry for help,” Inoferio said. “For now, we are praying, hopefully that person someday will be converted and realize that what he did is wrong.”

The parish asked for donations to restore the mural, which was painted 35 years ago, and install a plexiglass casing for protection.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Goose55 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm

Lonely Mary
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:05 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:15 am
+JMJ+

Sledgehammer attack damages Guadalupe mural at LA church
Image
The Virgin of Guadalupe is considered central to Mexican identity and is widely venerated as the patron saint of the Americas.
..............
“We cannot judge what is really inside of him, maybe it’s a cry for help,” Inoferio said. “For now, we are praying, hopefully that person someday will be converted and realize that what he did is wrong.”
A general question for everyone:

What do you think was the motivation?

1) A right-wing neo-nazi white supremacist who hates Mexicans.

2) A violent Evangelical Christian who hates Mary.

3) An angry leftist Democrat who hates Christians.

4) A psychotic schizophrenic with no rational motive.
===============================================

This was in California, so I'm betting either an angry atheist Democrat or a psychotic homeless person. That's what they've got there, in roughly equal numbers.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:06 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:28 pm
Lonely Mary
It was a long weekend for her.
G.K. Chesterton — 'It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.'

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Mon May 03, 2021 9:40 am

+JMJ+

In times of trouble, church turns to prayer with Mary, theologian says
Image
Pope Francis uses incense as he venerates a statue of Mary and the Christ Child during Mass at Verano cemetery in Rome in this Nov. 1, 2015, file photo. The pope has asked Catholics worldwide to pray the rosary every day throughout the month of May, pleading for an end to the pandemic and praying for those most affected by the disease and its consequences. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS)

ROME — The global Catholic Church coming together to pray for an end to the coronavirus pandemic represents the hope and faith of the people of God and how they find solace and strength together with Mary, said a theological expert in Mariology.

“Mary knows what suffering is,” and just as she was at the foot of Christ’s cross, “she is at the foot of the many crosses other people bear, bringing them comfort, redemption and accompaniment in a self-centered world,” said Servite Father Salvatore Perrella, a professor of dogmatics and Mariology at the Pontifical Institute Marianum.

Pope Francis asked that Catholics unite worldwide every day throughout the month of May to pray the rosary, pleading for an end to the pandemic and praying for those most affected by the disease and its consequences.

“The pope did the right thing to call this marathon of prayer to Mary,” Perrella told Catholic News Service April 29.

“It’s not that Mary will fix our problems — God doesn’t fix them either because he gives us freedom and even leaves a disease free to act — but it is about knowing that God is with us, which is the reason for our great strength and hope,” he said.

The initiative is a way for people of faith to turn to the Mother of God, who assures people that God never abandons anyone, he said.

“This is the power of the Christian faith, which is solace, strength, compassion and solidarity in suffering” and helps find meaning in pain and difficulties, he said.

Our Lady does not take any honor or focus away from Christ, he said. The church emphasizes her role as “mother, sister and friend,” who always comes to help, “who prays for us” and who points to and “connects us to Christ and Christ responds to our human weaknesses.”

The rosary, Perrella said, “is a gentle chain that unites us to God, unites us to each other, and Mary is witness to this.”

Every shrine and sanctuary around the world has been invited to organize prayer initiatives according to their local customs, he said, and the places and people that can do so safely should take part.

Shrines represent places for coming together, of pilgrimage and leaving behind the repetitive mundanity of the everyday, he said. They are “a rest stop, a launching pad” for something more, because people need to come together at different times, different places and in different ways “and be together with others, with oneself and with God.”

“It is not to distance yourself, but to find in God all of humanity,” since shrines often attract so many different people who do not know each other, but they form “a crown of solidarity, of unity” just by being there, knowing that God is near, he said.

For those who cannot visit a shrine, the Vatican will be broadcasting on multiple platforms starting at 6 p.m. Rome time each day from a different shrine around the world.

People should take advantage of being able to connect with broadcasts and online, he said.

“It’s not true that the Internet is infernal. It depends on how it’s used and where you go,” the Servite said. “We have to use all tools so this encounter can happen and bring people together by what they see, unite their hearts” and join as one catholic family.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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