Mary Alone

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by infidel » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:40 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:08 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:04 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:58 am
Obviously not. Effing perverts. What kind of encounter do you imagine with the virgin Mary?
Hey, wos and I ain't the one's saying Mary had no choice.

In before the lock :cheese:
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(And no, I'm not interested in punching the infidel...)
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:47 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:24 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:20 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 pm
Crud. If this thread becomes a pissing contest on Mary and Calvinism, it's going first on the list for the Council of Hats' consideration tonight.
What was said about Calvinism?
Nothing directly.

Yet...
The covert suggestion that Mary's obedience has no bearing on the Incarnation, or that she had no free will to her obedience.... that is something only a Calvinist could think of.

Mary's place in salvation history, just like Abraham's, is due to her free choice of obedience. We might not have a Savior, if either of them had refused.

It is a bit difficult to comprehend, if we assume that Mary was just a normal, fallen, sinful little girl like any of us. But when we know by faith that Mary was especially prepared and "full of grace" in order to accept the Savior for the world, then the Bible makes a lot more sense.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Jester » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:06 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:47 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:24 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:20 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 pm
Crud. If this thread becomes a pissing contest on Mary and Calvinism, it's going first on the list for the Council of Hats' consideration tonight.
What was said about Calvinism?
Nothing directly.

Yet...
The covert suggestion that Mary's obedience has no bearing on the Incarnation, or that she had no free will to her obedience.... that is something only a Calvinist could think of.

Mary's place in salvation history, just like Abraham's, is due to her free choice of obedience. We might not have a Savior, if either of them had refused.

It is a bit difficult to comprehend, if we assume that Mary was just a normal, fallen, sinful little girl like any of us. But when we know by faith that Mary was especially prepared and "full of grace" in order to accept the Savior for the world, then the Bible makes a lot more sense.
What I was saying was far from covert. Mary was told she will have a child. It would be an outright lie to say that I suggested she wasn't obedient in what was inevitable for her.

God did not ask Abraham if he wanted a son or would accept a son. Abraham you will have a son. Maybe your history escapes you but I am pretty sure his response wasn't "yes" it was more like, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!"
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:06 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:47 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:24 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:20 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 pm
Crud. If this thread becomes a pissing contest on Mary and Calvinism, it's going first on the list for the Council of Hats' consideration tonight.
What was said about Calvinism?
Nothing directly.

Yet...
The covert suggestion that Mary's obedience has no bearing on the Incarnation, or that she had no free will to her obedience.... that is something only a Calvinist could think of.

Mary's place in salvation history, just like Abraham's, is due to her free choice of obedience. We might not have a Savior, if either of them had refused.

It is a bit difficult to comprehend, if we assume that Mary was just a normal, fallen, sinful little girl like any of us. But when we know by faith that Mary was especially prepared and "full of grace" in order to accept the Savior for the world, then the Bible makes a lot more sense.
What I was saying was far from covert. Mary was told she will have a child. It would be an outright lie to say that I suggested she wasn't obedient in what was inevitable for her.

God did not ask Abraham if he wanted a son or would accept a son. Abraham you will have a son. Maybe your history escapes you but I am pretty sure his response wasn't "yes" it was more like, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!"
Are you asking for that pissing contest that Skip asked us to avoid?

I know plenty well about Hagar and Ishmael. From that disobedience comes all of the Islamist/Calvinist theology of submission -- and persecution of the infidels, as well. Piss, piss, piss....

But whenever the Bible praises Abraham, it is for his obedient willingness to sacrifice Isaac. All blessings and our salvation comes from this obedience.

And likewise -- Mary is also praised for her willing cooperation in giving up her only Son, as well. (By those Christians who praise her, anyway.) She was promised that a sword would pierce her heart... and no one participates more closely with Christ in His Cross than Mary does.

Which makes it all the more astounding -- That for the three days that Christ lay in the tomb, Mary was the only one who fully comprehended the promise of the resurrection... and believed.
G.K. Chesterton — 'It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.'

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Skip » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 pm

THERE IT IS!!!
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Jester » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:56 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 pm
THERE IT IS!!!
I know. I still haven't mentioned it. I am putting part of the blame on you for prompting Del to pull it out of nowhere.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by infidel » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:19 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:56 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 pm
THERE IT IS!!!
I know. I still haven't mentioned it. I am putting part of the blame on you for prompting Del to pull it out of nowhere.
My "In before the lock" comment was played in lieu of the Calvinism card, but I had it in my hand even before Skip showed up ;-)

I knew it was coming, but decided to watch it happen instead :chili:
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Skip » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:19 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:56 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 pm
THERE IT IS!!!
I know. I still haven't mentioned it. I am putting part of the blame on you for prompting Del to pull it out of nowhere.
My "In before the lock" comment was played in lieu of the Calvinism card, but I had it in my hand even before Skip showed up ;-)

I knew it was coming, but decided to watch it happen instead :chili:
I couldn't not touch it.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by infidel » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:59 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:19 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:56 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 pm
THERE IT IS!!!
I know. I still haven't mentioned it. I am putting part of the blame on you for prompting Del to pull it out of nowhere.
My "In before the lock" comment was played in lieu of the Calvinism card, but I had it in my hand even before Skip showed up ;-)

I knew it was coming, but decided to watch it happen instead :chili:
I couldn't not touch it.
Of course not, we are double-dog predestined to touch it :D
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Skip » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:50 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:59 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:39 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:19 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:56 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:49 pm
THERE IT IS!!!
I know. I still haven't mentioned it. I am putting part of the blame on you for prompting Del to pull it out of nowhere.
My "In before the lock" comment was played in lieu of the Calvinism card, but I had it in my hand even before Skip showed up ;-)

I knew it was coming, but decided to watch it happen instead :chili:
I couldn't not touch it.
Of course not, we are double-dog predestined to touch it :D
Careful. Calvinists can get violent when you tell 'em you were obviously predestined to say what just pissed 'em off.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:43 pm

Mary. Alone.
Image
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:13 pm

FredS wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:43 pm
Mary. Alone.
Image
I guess she didn't make it, after all....
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:38 am

Okay! So gone for the rest of the day and I've been accused of calling God a rapist.

Now THAT'S the CPS I know and love! :lol:
wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:11 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:30 am


… The angel did not come with a request: "Will you allow the Holy Spirit to come upon you in order that you will conceive in your womb and bear a son?", But he came with a proclamation: "You will conceive in your womb and bear a son."

[…]
To me this sounds like the angel essentially saying, "Look, this is gonna happen one way or the other, so you might as well relax and try to enjoy it."

If so, then "the holy rape of the soul", indeed.
First, I'm not doing anything here, except pointing out the fact of how things went down. Everyone who has access to Luke chapter 1 can confirm this. What I said above--that the word to Mary was not a request, but a proclamation--is the Holy Spirit inspired documented way it happened.

So in reality, your beef about 'holy rape of the soul' isn't with me. It's with Luke and his Inspiration.
Del wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:06 pm
Zechariah scoffed at the angel's message.... and he was struck dumb "until all had come to pass," speaking after Zechariah named the child "John."
So there is some merit in saying that they could only submit to God's will.

Also consider the defiance of Jonah in contrast with the obedience of Abraham.

Mary gave her full consent to God's plan, and now she is Queen of Heaven and Earth. (Mostly because her Son is the King, but still....)

Mary could have failed to believe, or even refused outright, and we do not know what the consequences might have been.

But Mary believed what the angel told her... and she asked a question, seeking to understand (how she, an avowed virgin, could conceive a child).... and with that answered, she gave her complete will and consent. Now she is the model of what a perfect Christian is.
This is exactly what I'm saying (well, not the "Queen of Heaven and Earth" bit). And I even brought it up in the case of Jonah and contrasted his disobedience with the obedience of Mary. The Bible (not calvinism**) is explicit in how God does these things. He proclaims it will happen, and people respond in faith or unbelief, and it still happens the way He intended. Remember Sarah laughing at the idea of having a baby? She still conceived despite her unbelief.

If you want to say that Mary gave her consent, that's fine, (but it is kind of creepy with our day's connotations associated with that word) so long as it's understood that Jonah did not consent to God's plan, and the plan still went through. Mary submitted where Jonah ran and Sarah laughed.


--------------------
**and as to the topic of Calvinism and Mary and pissing matches, if the Admins/Mods are going to squawk and threaten to shut things down at the mere possibility that it could get brought up, then for the love of FredS what do we have a theology forum for? I've frankly been in many enjoyable conversations that the Powers have deemed a pissing match in the past where no one was doing any pissing save the mods who were pissing on an otherwise engaging conversation, complaining about how horrible the thread is going to probably be before anyone has even broken the sacred ToS.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by UncleBob » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:42 am

tuttle wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:38 am
..then for the love of FredS what do we have a theology forum for?
Hmm... That's an interesting notion.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:51 am

UncleBob wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:42 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:38 am
..then for the love of FredS what do we have a theology forum for?
Hmm... That's an interesting notion.
Seems ripe for the picking in the movement to make CPS boring.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:21 am

UncleBob wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:42 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:38 am
..then for the love of FredS what do we have a theology forum for?
Hmm... That's an interesting notion.
1. That's a horrible notion. With the possible exception of the rape card I've not seen anything here that's out of line. Some people need this place for these types of discussions.

2. FFS tuttle, you've used the term incorrectly. At CPS it means For Fred's Sake. To the rest of the world it means something a little coarser.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by gaining_age » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:47 am

FredS wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:21 am
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:42 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:38 am
..then for the love of FredS what do we have a theology forum for?
Hmm... That's an interesting notion.
1. That's a horrible notion. With the possible exception of the rape card I've not seen anything here that's out of line. Some people need this place for these types of discussions.

2. FFS tuttle, you've used the term incorrectly. At CPS it means For Fred's Sake. To the rest of the world it means something a little coarser.
To me-- it shall always mean For FredS Sake.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:58 am

+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:33 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:39 am
coco wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:27 am
Rather than dealing with the conception, the Protestants would do well to go back and have a closer look at what Wos said about the nature of faith.
But remember, it's, firstly, what Josh said (or seemed to say). What we really need is for him to come back and weigh-in.

As for now … Image
I didn't say so, but it is interesting that the Protestants haven't noticed, isn't it?
Tru dat. I get yer point.

But it strikes me — and I want to emphasize that I mean this in the most respectfully snarky way possible — is that I find it ironic that a Protestant wants to direct the discussion away from the Biblical Narrative (away from the "Conception"/Annunciation Narrative) and towards abstract theological concepts (towards defining "the nature of faith").

And of course, you know that I say this as someone who loves to swim in the waters of philosophico-theological speculation. But if the theology being advanced is making the Annunciation (i.e. the "Angelic Salutation") a narrative of violence rather than one of peace, then I'd say that the Biblical Narrative may well be precisely the territory upon which I'd want to keep shining the spotlight.

ImageImage

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:00 am

FredS wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:21 am
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:42 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:38 am
..then for the love of FredS what do we have a theology forum for?
Hmm... That's an interesting notion.
1. That's a horrible notion. With the possible exception of the rape card I've not seen anything here that's out of line. Some people need this place for these types of discussions.

2. FFS tuttle, you've used the term incorrectly. At CPS it means For Fred's Sake. To the rest of the world it means something a little coarser.
I'm expanding the term. It felt appropriate. :lol:
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by John-Boy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:28 am

Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:24 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:20 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 pm
Crud. If this thread becomes a pissing contest on Mary and Calvinism, it's going first on the list for the Council of Hats' consideration tonight.
What was said about Calvinism?
Nothing directly.

Yet...
You missed the thread title? Classic Del! Del FTW!
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