Mary Alone

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:20 pm

tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:08 pm
I started to tangle with this, but it was like every other word I was responding to was a tangle. I can only hope that one day you'll actually take the time to read the Reformers or barring that, at the very least read some well reasoned history (not slanted from the RC perspective) about what they did and why they did it, not in order to persuade you, but in order for you to not sound like a dingbat about them on CPS :lol:
Del wrote:We know that Luther had a great devotion to Mary. Doesn't matter much, nowadays. The descendants of Mr. Calvin's tradition recoil from any mention of Mary.... like vampires from garlic. Why is that?
I would qualify that. Calvinists don't recoil from any mention of Mary, they recoil from interpretations of Mary that aren't supported in the Scriptures. And I'll qualify that even more. Recoil is too strong of a word. Disagree is better. (Again, that's not to say people don't recoil...but I really don't think that's the normal reaction to the mention of Mary)
It is pretty easy to make an Evangelical bible-Christian recoil by simply mentioning Mary. The reaction is often reflexive. When Marcus Grodi interviews converts on EWTN, he always asks how they dealt with overcoming their resistance to Mary and how they eventually came to know Mary. Let's not pretend like Evangelicals have a devotion to Mary that Catholics are blindly ignorant of.

As far as Mary and the Bible go.... everything we know about Mary is biblical. But if a theology system misunderstands Mary, it's going to get a lot of the Bible wrong as well. I'm going to start a thread that will touch that topic, some day.

But the bigger question is "Where does the Bible belong, in our faith?" Apostolic Christians do not insist that our faith comes from Scripture. We insist that our faith comes from the Apostles and their teaching... and that the Bible was written for Christians who were already taught the basics of our faith. The Bible is rather useless unless a Christian already knows the facts of faith about the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, and Transubstantiation.

It is true that much of what we know about Mary (such as her Perpetual Virginity and her Dormition/Assumption) are not founded in Scripture. But Scripture is very consistent with these doctrines of Christian faith.
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:08 pm
Del wrote:I figure that I am fine, as long as I don't love and honor Mary more than Jesus does.
Eternal, sacrificial, perfect love? That's a mighty high bar there, my friend. More power (figuratively speaking) to you if you can achieve it

May I advocate another path to honor Mary? Seek to love Jesus as much as she does.
Now you are talking like a Catholic!

We say, "To Jesus, through Mary." We study her as an example.... but we also have a relationship with her, and let her guide us.

Here is the real difference: It's not what one believes about Mary, or the biblical arguments one makes about Mary. The real matter is whether one has a personal relationship with Mary. Have you met her?

If you have met Mary, then you have also met Jesus. They are always together.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:21 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:19 pm
Zombie Thread of the Decade Redux?

We've done this before.

A lot.
It has been a long time, though. So nice to hear the oldies again!

These discussions of interfaith arm-wrestling shut down for several years, as we struggled together against a secular regime that was bent on shutting us all down.

The good news is that:
- Catholic Charities is facilitating adoptions again in Illinois.
- The USCCB is working again with HHS on helping victims of human trafficking.
- Pregnancy Care Centers are much less threatened with litigation and forced closures. Some states are partnering with these effective charities.
- The Little Sisters of the Poor are no longer under threat of a federal lawsuit, allowing them to provide charity care for the elderly and destitute.
- Religious charities, clinics, schools, and universities are no longer in the sights of Big Government's guns.

And we are free to talk about Mary and the Bible again. These are happy days!
Last edited by Del on Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:55 pm

This is a real gem! WOW!

Mostly this is Blessed Paul VI, talking about Mary's place in the Novus Ordo worship and the revised Church calendar. A lot of "inside baseball" for bishops to digest. But this money-quote sums up how our devotion to Mary begins in Christ, ends in Christ, and leads us all the more closer to Christ... as part of God's plan!
The development [...] of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church's genuine piety. This devotion fits [...] into the only worship that is rightly called "Christian," because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God's redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord. Moreover, the history of piety shows how "the various forms of devotion towards the Mother of God that the Church has approved within the limits of wholesome and orthodox doctrine"(5) have developed in harmonious subordination to the worship of Christ, and have gravitated towards this worship as to their natural and necessary point of reference. The same is happening in our own time. The Church's reflection today on the mystery of Christ and on her own nature has led her to find at the root of the former and is a culmination of the latter the same figure of a woman: the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Christ and the Mother of the Church. And the increased knowledge of Mary's mission has become joyful veneration of her and adoring respect for the wise plan of God, who has placed within His family (the Church), as in every home, the figure of a Woman, who in a hidden manner and in a spirit of service watches over that family "and carefully looks after it until the glorious day of the Lord."(6)
The Church, like every loving family, has a Mother to care for us.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:35 pm

+JMJ+

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:03 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:35 pm
+JMJ+

Image
Whoa!

I noticed that the Annunciation (March 25) was on Palm Sunday, this year.

I did not know that the Feast was moved to The Monday After Divine Mercy.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by DepartedLight » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:25 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:55 pm
This is a real gem! WOW!

Mostly this is Blessed Paul VI, talking about Mary's place in the Novus Ordo worship and the revised Church calendar. A lot of "inside baseball" for bishops to digest. But this money-quote sums up how our devotion to Mary begins in Christ, ends in Christ, and leads us all the more closer to Christ... as part of God's plan!
The development [...] of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church's genuine piety. This devotion fits [...] into the only worship that is rightly called "Christian," because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God's redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord. Moreover, the history of piety shows how "the various forms of devotion towards the Mother of God that the Church has approved within the limits of wholesome and orthodox doctrine"(5) have developed in harmonious subordination to the worship of Christ, and have gravitated towards this worship as to their natural and necessary point of reference. The same is happening in our own time. The Church's reflection today on the mystery of Christ and on her own nature has led her to find at the root of the former and is a culmination of the latter the same figure of a woman: the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Christ and the Mother of the Church. And the increased knowledge of Mary's mission has become joyful veneration of her and adoring respect for the wise plan of God, who has placed within His family (the Church), as in every home, the figure of a Woman, who in a hidden manner and in a spirit of service watches over that family "and carefully looks after it until the glorious day of the Lord."(6)
The Church, like every loving family, has a Mother to care for us.
Some of them there Popes got good pen.

I was trying to find the texts on The Cult of Mary within the Catholic Church. I remember from university days, that it was in a class lead by a PhD that was at Vatican II; wrote docs, was really in there and all. I thought it was in the CCC but, that's not right. I'll search the conciliatory documents, maybe it's there. It was fantastically fascinating. Educational, even.

As an aside. Dr. V2 never gave a grade on papers. He just red lined the whole the paper with notes written in Klingon Shorthand. Somehow I ended up with a B at end of semester. 3 credits is 3 credits.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:55 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:55 pm
This is a real gem! WOW!

Mostly this is Blessed Paul VI, talking about Mary's place in the Novus Ordo worship and the revised Church calendar. A lot of "inside baseball" for bishops to digest. But this money-quote sums up how our devotion to Mary begins in Christ, ends in Christ, and leads us all the more closer to Christ... as part of God's plan!
The development [...] of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church's genuine piety. This devotion fits [...] into the only worship that is rightly called "Christian," because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God's redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord. Moreover, the history of piety shows how "the various forms of devotion towards the Mother of God that the Church has approved within the limits of wholesome and orthodox doctrine"(5) have developed in harmonious subordination to the worship of Christ, and have gravitated towards this worship as to their natural and necessary point of reference. The same is happening in our own time. The Church's reflection today on the mystery of Christ and on her own nature has led her to find at the root of the former and is a culmination of the latter the same figure of a woman: the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Christ and the Mother of the Church. And the increased knowledge of Mary's mission has become joyful veneration of her and adoring respect for the wise plan of God, who has placed within His family (the Church), as in every home, the figure of a Woman, who in a hidden manner and in a spirit of service watches over that family "and carefully looks after it until the glorious day of the Lord."(6)
The Church, like every loving family, has a Mother to care for us.
Some of them there Popes got good pen.

I was trying to find the texts on The Cult of Mary within the Catholic Church. I remember from university days, that it was in a class lead by a PhD that was at Vatican II; wrote docs, was really in there and all. I thought it was in the CCC but, that's not right. I'll search the conciliatory documents, maybe it's there. It was fantastically fascinating. Educational, even.

As an aside. Dr. V2 never gave a grade on papers. He just red lined the whole the paper with notes written in Klingon Shorthand. Somehow I ended up with a B at end of semester. 3 credits is 3 credits.
Mary: God's Yes to Man, By St. John Paul the Great (Redemptoris Mater)

free LINK to Redemptoris Mater at Vatican website.

John Paul II's biblical reflection on Mary in the renewal of the Church, in accord with Vatican II.
INTRODUCTION

1. The Mother of the Redeemer has a precise place in the plan of salvation, for "when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'" (Gal. 4:4-6)
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by DepartedLight » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:49 pm

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964


Scroll to:
IV. The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church

Found it. Of course it's in LUMEN GENTIUM. I'm out of practice.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:16 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:39 pm
Mary is much favored and I don't believe most Protestants would protest that-- we have it declared in the scriptures. Giving her more honor and even elevation into the role of salvation (or early salvation) then that fuzzies the sinful state of man perspective that Christ was the only righteous man (person). I'm not hitting all the nuances but trying a stab at a broad stroke of the problem.
Even if one accepts the immaculate conception of Mary, my understanding is that the immaculateness concerns the Original Sin she did not inherit. She still needed preserving, which was accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. She was lead not into temptation, if you will.

Christ, on the other hand, needed no preservation. He was God, so He could not disobey Himself. By His Mother, His humanity was a generation removed from Original Sin. The New Adam, born of the New Eve, without any stain of Original Sin.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:09 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:16 pm
gaining_age wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:39 pm
Mary is much favored and I don't believe most Protestants would protest that-- we have it declared in the scriptures. Giving her more honor and even elevation into the role of salvation (or early salvation) then that fuzzies the sinful state of man perspective that Christ was the only righteous man (person). I'm not hitting all the nuances but trying a stab at a broad stroke of the problem.
Even if one accepts the immaculate conception of Mary, my understanding is that the immaculateness concerns the Original Sin she did not inherit. She still needed preserving, which was accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. She was lead not into temptation, if you will.

Christ, on the other hand, needed no preservation. He was God, so He could not disobey Himself. By His Mother, His humanity was a generation removed from Original Sin. The New Adam, born of the New Eve, without any stain of Original Sin.
I shall stretch my neck out a bit further here (to give the axe plenty of room to swing)....

If our faith is made of theories and dogmas, then Mary is never going to make sense. She breaks all of the rules.

But if our faith made of relationships -- with Jesus and Mary, the Trinity and the saints -- then Mary is easy to understand. She is the exception that proves all of the rules.

Mary was preserved from sin and especially prepared so that she could be a fitting mother to the Savior.... in fulfillment of many obscure biblical prophecies that are made clear in her.

In addition, Mary was also prepared to be a loving mother to the whole Church and all of her children, as a superabundant gift of Christ to us. This becomes abundantly clear when one has met Mary.

None of this changes any theological theories one has about the Bible or the sinful state of the rest of us.
As an exception, Mary reveals the glory that we were all supposed to enjoy -- before our fallen nature left us susceptible to temptation and sin.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:27 am

Del wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:20 pm
It is true that much of what we know about Mary (such as her Perpetual Virginity and her Dormition/Assumption) are not founded in Scripture. But Scripture is very consistent with these doctrines of Christian faith.
Yeah, this is the crux of it (in this thread). Protestants don't hold to those doctrines precisely because they don't believe Scripture is very consistent with those doctrines. (And don't hear what I'm not saying, I'm simply trying to show you the Protestant take. I'm not trying to convert you.)
Del wrote:It has been a long time, though. So nice to hear the oldies again!
I agree it's good to come back around to old topics (the church has been doing this for 2000 years anyway) because, personally, I find within myself certain hills I've stood upon sinking into valleys and the valleys rising into hills. Revisiting old topics is sometimes like trying on old clothes. Sometimes it helps me see where I'm in need of some shaping up, or maybe I'll be shocked to realize that a certain garment still fits like a glove.

Whatever the case, I think on a forum, it's not too bad to revisit old (often well worn) topics, because we get new folks around here that have never tested their mettle on specific topics, or they've never offered their opinion or insight or angle that we'd never had before.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am

Del wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:20 pm
It is pretty easy to make an Evangelical bible-Christian recoil by simply mentioning Mary. The reaction is often reflexive.
You enjoy sharpening your stick and poking that dead horse don't you?
Del wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:20 pm
. . . the bigger question is "Where does the Bible belong, in our faith?" Apostolic Christians do not insist that our faith comes from Scripture. We insist that our faith comes from the Apostles and their teaching... and that the Bible was written for Christians who were already taught the basics of our faith. The Bible is rather useless unless a Christian already knows the facts of faith about the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, and Transubstantiation.

It is true that much of what we know about Mary (such as her Perpetual Virginity and her Dormition/Assumption) are not founded in Scripture. But Scripture is very consistent with these doctrines of Christian faith.
Boosh! There it is.

Everything you've written (that I've quoted here) is true. We all know this yet we persist in these conversations. We're not trying to discover truth. We're not trying to convert. We're not even explaining our beliefs, traditions, or thoughts in a way we've not done a dozen times before. We're just sparing. I don't write this to dissuade conversation, but to ask everyone not to get annoyed with another persons positions. There's no new people or positions in this thread. None. Anyone who's been here for more than a week knows exactly where Del and Wos are and where Tuttle and Jester are. It's stupid to wade in here and then act shocked or surprised when someone writes something you don't believe.

The people involved in these discussions are thinkers who've gone over all this ground with critical minds. There's a reason they park in front of a specific building on Sunday mornings. Baptists aint Catholic and Anglicans aint Presbyterian. Ya think there might be valid reasons for that?
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by UncleBob » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am
Boosh! There it is.

Everything you've written (that I've quoted here) is true. We all know this yet we persist in these conversations. We're not trying to discover truth. We're not trying to convert. We're not even explaining our beliefs, traditions, or thoughts in a way we've not done a dozen times before. We're just sparing. I don't write this to dissuade conversation, but to ask everyone not to get annoyed with another persons positions. There's no new people or positions in this thread. None. Anyone who's been here for more than a week knows exactly where Del and Wos are and where Tuttle and Jester are. It's stupid to wade in here and then act shocked or surprised when someone writes something you don't believe.

The people involved in these discussions are thinkers who've gone over all this ground with critical minds. There's a reason they park in front of a specific building on Sunday mornings. Baptists aint Catholic and Anglicans aint Presbyterian. Ya think there might be valid reasons for that?
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:13 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:19 am
tuttle wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm
Hmmm...what if I threw a wrench into this by saying that Mary's 'yes' was ordained from the foundation of the world? …
And with that, we're back full-circle: Eternal Decrees.

And is way of framing the issue essentially different than "submission"?

Cuz I'm not seein' it. Unfreedom is unfreedom.
Is there something wrong with eternal decrees? …

[…]
(see bolded)




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:26 am

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am
Boosh! There it is.

Everything you've written (that I've quoted here) is true. We all know this yet we persist in these conversations. We're not trying to discover truth. We're not trying to convert. We're not even explaining our beliefs, traditions, or thoughts in a way we've not done a dozen times before. We're just sparing. I don't write this to dissuade conversation, but to ask everyone not to get annoyed with another persons positions. There's no new people or positions in this thread. None. Anyone who's been here for more than a week knows exactly where Del and Wos are and where Tuttle and Jester are. It's stupid to wade in here and then act shocked or surprised when someone writes something you don't believe.

The people involved in these discussions are thinkers who've gone over all this ground with critical minds. There's a reason they park in front of a specific building on Sunday mornings. Baptists aint Catholic and Anglicans aint Presbyterian. Ya think there might be valid reasons for that?
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
Hey, Tuttle. Now that yer the sheriff here, you could mod-out the above, right?

:chili:




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Joshoowah » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:29 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am
Boosh! There it is.

Everything you've written (that I've quoted here) is true. We all know this yet we persist in these conversations. We're not trying to discover truth. We're not trying to convert. We're not even explaining our beliefs, traditions, or thoughts in a way we've not done a dozen times before. We're just sparing. I don't write this to dissuade conversation, but to ask everyone not to get annoyed with another persons positions. There's no new people or positions in this thread. None. Anyone who's been here for more than a week knows exactly where Del and Wos are and where Tuttle and Jester are. It's stupid to wade in here and then act shocked or surprised when someone writes something you don't believe.

The people involved in these discussions are thinkers who've gone over all this ground with critical minds. There's a reason they park in front of a specific building on Sunday mornings. Baptists aint Catholic and Anglicans aint Presbyterian. Ya think there might be valid reasons for that?
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
Am I not Moderate? I thought I was! :D
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:38 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:26 am
+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am
Boosh! There it is.

Everything you've written (that I've quoted here) is true. We all know this yet we persist in these conversations. We're not trying to discover truth. We're not trying to convert. We're not even explaining our beliefs, traditions, or thoughts in a way we've not done a dozen times before. We're just sparing. I don't write this to dissuade conversation, but to ask everyone not to get annoyed with another persons positions. There's no new people or positions in this thread. None. Anyone who's been here for more than a week knows exactly where Del and Wos are and where Tuttle and Jester are. It's stupid to wade in here and then act shocked or surprised when someone writes something you don't believe.

The people involved in these discussions are thinkers who've gone over all this ground with critical minds. There's a reason they park in front of a specific building on Sunday mornings. Baptists aint Catholic and Anglicans aint Presbyterian. Ya think there might be valid reasons for that?
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
Hey, Tuttle. Now that yer the sheriff here, you could mod-out the above, right?

:chili:
:lol:
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:13 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:19 am
tuttle wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm
Hmmm...what if I threw a wrench into this by saying that Mary's 'yes' was ordained from the foundation of the world? …
And with that, we're back full-circle: Eternal Decrees.

And is way of framing the issue essentially different than "submission"?

Cuz I'm not seein' it. Unfreedom is unfreedom.
Is there something wrong with eternal decrees? …

[…]
(see bolded)
Yeah...but you nixed all the reasons I gave for asking that question. Eternal decrees are found throughout the entirety of the Scriptures (This pattern is found all over: God decrees > Man responds in belief/unbelief > God works all things for His glory and the good of his people using both the faithful and sinful reactions of humanity > His word does not return void, but accomplishes that which He pleases)

I even provided an out so as not to tie Mary specifically up with any unfreedom! I thought I rode that fence quite well :lol:
"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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tuttle
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:50 am

Joshoowah wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:29 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am
Boosh! There it is.

Everything you've written (that I've quoted here) is true. We all know this yet we persist in these conversations. We're not trying to discover truth. We're not trying to convert. We're not even explaining our beliefs, traditions, or thoughts in a way we've not done a dozen times before. We're just sparing. I don't write this to dissuade conversation, but to ask everyone not to get annoyed with another persons positions. There's no new people or positions in this thread. None. Anyone who's been here for more than a week knows exactly where Del and Wos are and where Tuttle and Jester are. It's stupid to wade in here and then act shocked or surprised when someone writes something you don't believe.

The people involved in these discussions are thinkers who've gone over all this ground with critical minds. There's a reason they park in front of a specific building on Sunday mornings. Baptists aint Catholic and Anglicans aint Presbyterian. Ya think there might be valid reasons for that?
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
Am I not Moderate? I thought I was! :D
I think there are quite a lot of moderate voices here. If not moderate in stance, certainly moderate in the way they seek to address a community made up of varied traditions with the combustibility of dryer lent. There are some who think anyone who comments in the Theology room is a hardcore extremist and differing opinions must mean we want to kill each other. That's not a good way to approach this. It sucks the air out of the room and makes everyone a bad guy.

I, for one, find no issue with theological sparing. I find it invigorating. Iron sharpens iron. I've literally changed certain theological viewpoints on account of this place because I'd been confronted with a topic or an issue that I'd not fully engaged in on my own or in any other environment I'm exposed to.
"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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