Mary Alone

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by infidel » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm

j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Irish-Dane » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm

infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm

Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by coco » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm

coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
First: It is really good to see j1n back again. Welcome home!

Second: Kudos to Otherdel for beating the Lock.

To task: It is the ancient faith and heritage of all Christians that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ.

We do not know exactly how this was accomplished -- the birth of a child without opening the womb.

Some of the Early Church Fathers spoke of Jesus's being born "as light passes through glass." This was a poetic image, a metaphor of how Christ was born without disrupting His mother's womb. We do not have anything in the Gospels to confirm or deny it.

The Protoevangelium of James describes a sort of teleportation of Jesus from the womb to the arms of the Blessed Virgin. Although this text was rejected as authentic apostolic writing, it does show us that this belief was already established by the second century.

In any case... by some means that has not been fully revealed to us, Jesus was born of Mary's womb while her virginity was preserved.

Personally, it is my guess that all of the messy blood and placenta were dealt with in the usual messy way. I doubt that it was as tidy as a painting by Raphael.
Why? -- Because I am a flesh-loving Catholic. The Incarnation was as meaty as it sounds.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Cleon » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:08 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
First: It is really good to see j1n back again. Welcome home!

Second: Kudos to Otherdel for beating the Lock.

To task: It is the ancient faith and heritage of all Christians that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ.

We do not know exactly how this was accomplished -- the birth of a child without opening the womb.

Some of the Early Church Fathers spoke of Jesus's being born "as light passes through glass." This was a poetic image, a metaphor of how Christ was born without disrupting His mother's womb. We do not have anything in the Gospels to confirm or deny it.

The Protoevangelium of James describes a sort of teleportation of Jesus from the womb to the arms of the Blessed Virgin. Although this text was rejected as authentic apostolic writing, it does show us that this belief was already established by the second century.

In any case... by some means that has not been fully revealed to us, Jesus was born of Mary's womb while her virginity was preserved.

Personally, it is my guess that all of the messy blood and placenta were dealt with in the usual messy way. I doubt that it was as tidy as a painting by Raphael.
Why? -- Because I am a flesh-loving Catholic. The Incarnation was as meaty as it sounds.
That is interesting.The Catholic definition of a virgin is broad to me.I never think of it in terms of whether or not someone gave birth.

What would it do to Jesus if he was born vaginally? I'm not seeing why he had to be born like light passing through glass. Also, in your tradition, did Mary menstruate? I hate to go there, but...I think your answer might help me understand a little more.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:36 am

Cleon wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:08 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
First: It is really good to see j1n back again. Welcome home!

Second: Kudos to Otherdel for beating the Lock.

To task: It is the ancient faith and heritage of all Christians that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ.

We do not know exactly how this was accomplished -- the birth of a child without opening the womb.

Some of the Early Church Fathers spoke of Jesus's being born "as light passes through glass." This was a poetic image, a metaphor of how Christ was born without disrupting His mother's womb. We do not have anything in the Gospels to confirm or deny it.

The Protoevangelium of James describes a sort of teleportation of Jesus from the womb to the arms of the Blessed Virgin. Although this text was rejected as authentic apostolic writing, it does show us that this belief was already established by the second century.

In any case... by some means that has not been fully revealed to us, Jesus was born of Mary's womb while her virginity was preserved.

Personally, it is my guess that all of the messy blood and placenta were dealt with in the usual messy way. I doubt that it was as tidy as a painting by Raphael.
Why? -- Because I am a flesh-loving Catholic. The Incarnation was as meaty as it sounds.
That is interesting.The Catholic definition of a virgin is broad to me.I never think of it in terms of whether or not someone gave birth.

What would it do to Jesus if he was born vaginally? I'm not seeing why he had to be born like light passing through glass. Also, in your tradition, did Mary menstruate? I hate to go there, but...I think your answer might help me understand a little more.
The ancient understanding of virginity was "opening the womb." The modern definition is confined to sexual innocence. Since Jesus and Mary and the Gospels were so long ago, we have to open ourselves to the ancient understanding.

I intend to start another thread about the Five Marian Doctrines someday soon. We can discuss the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and all of what that means.

Mary and Jesus did all of the normal, human things. There was lots of blood and dirty diapers and all that.
============================================

The most important thing is not in the doctrines. The most important thing is that Mary sits next to Jesus NOW. And that we can talk to Mary NOW. And that she is our spiritual Mother, just as she is Christ's Mother, as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

The important thing is that we should have good relationships with Christ and His mother.

The doctrines help us understand. But the relationships are key.
Last edited by Del on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:38 am

+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
OTOH, nobody likes it when you call the Risen Christ's entering the Upper Room "quantum phase-shifting".

:dancingpie:
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:04 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:38 am
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
OTOH, nobody likes it when you call the Risen Christ's entering the Upper Room "quantum phase-shifting".

:dancingpie:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I forgot about that!

But the Christ's defiance of physical barriers after the Resurrection is foreshadowed by the miracles of his conception and birth.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Cleon » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:24 am

Del wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:36 am
Cleon wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:08 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
First: It is really good to see j1n back again. Welcome home!

Second: Kudos to Otherdel for beating the Lock.

To task: It is the ancient faith and heritage of all Christians that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ.

We do not know exactly how this was accomplished -- the birth of a child without opening the womb.

Some of the Early Church Fathers spoke of Jesus's being born "as light passes through glass." This was a poetic image, a metaphor of how Christ was born without disrupting His mother's womb. We do not have anything in the Gospels to confirm or deny it.

The Protoevangelium of James describes a sort of teleportation of Jesus from the womb to the arms of the Blessed Virgin. Although this text was rejected as authentic apostolic writing, it does show us that this belief was already established by the second century.

In any case... by some means that has not been fully revealed to us, Jesus was born of Mary's womb while her virginity was preserved.

Personally, it is my guess that all of the messy blood and placenta were dealt with in the usual messy way. I doubt that it was as tidy as a painting by Raphael.
Why? -- Because I am a flesh-loving Catholic. The Incarnation was as meaty as it sounds.
That is interesting.The Catholic definition of a virgin is broad to me.I never think of it in terms of whether or not someone gave birth.

What would it do to Jesus if he was born vaginally? I'm not seeing why he had to be born like light passing through glass. Also, in your tradition, did Mary menstruate? I hate to go there, but...I think your answer might help me understand a little more.
The ancient understanding of virginity was "opening the womb." The modern definition is confined to sexual innocence. Since Jesus and Mary and the Gospels were so long ago, we have to open ourselves to the ancient understanding.

I intend to start another thread about the Five Marian Doctrines someday soon. We can discuss the Immaculate Conception and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and all of what that means.

Mary and Jesus did all of the normal, human things. There was lots of blood and dirty diapers and all that.
============================================

The most important thing is not in the doctrines. The most important thing is that Mary sits next to Jesus NOW. And that we can talk to Mary NOW. And that she is our spiritual Mother, just as she is Christ's Mother, as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

The important thing is that we should have good relationships with Christ and His mother.

The doctrines help us understand. But the relationships are key.
That would be an interesting thread. I'm looking forward to it. I probably won't respond much to it, but don't take it as a slight. I'm sure you'll get plenty of interaction. At this point I like to watch conversations more than I participate in them.
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:38 am

*Catholics have a saying - "Aint no thang."

Translation: Jesus' virginal birth is no more or less supernatural than His conception, resurrection, entrance to the room without opening a door, or ascension. That we don't understand, or can't comprehend, the mechanics of any of it doesn't mean that all of it never happened. It's the very definition of a miracle "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."

*Really, all Christians must believe these things. It's all part of the package. The birth is no more or less explainable than the resurrection, it's just that most of us spend a lot more time wrapping our minds around the resurrection.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:48 am

Holy Wow!

I've used google as a dictionary hundreds of times and never noticed noticed this until I entered "miracle". I'll just leave that there, but omg, if this isn't divinely inspired you can kiss my pie.
:dancingpie: :pie: :dancingpie: :pie: :dancingpie: :pie: :dancingpie: :pie: :dancingpie:
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:59 am

infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
In before the lock :chili:
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm
Kudos to Otherdel for beating the Lock.
You guys seem to be forgetting...


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Re: Mary Alone

Post by durangopipe » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:07 am

“Cleon” wrote:That would be an interesting thread. I'm looking forward to it. I probably won't respond much to it, but don't take it as a slight. I'm sure you'll get plenty of interaction. At this point I like to watch conversations more than I participate in them
This.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:11 am

Del wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:04 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:38 am
+JMJ+
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:24 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:51 pm
infidel wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:40 pm
j1n wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm
In my meeting, yesterday, with the local RCC church's RCIA guy, he dropped some knowledge about Mary on me that I really hadn't considered before. He told me that Catholics are very "fleshy" folks and that Mary reminds us that Jesus was actually very much human...born of an actual woman's womb, afterbirth and all. For some reason that struck me as a really beautiful way to view Mary... as a real human mother to a real human Jesus; and whose job it is to always point to Jesus. It's obvious, I know, and maybe simplistic. But pretty interesting.
... except that to Catholics her womb never opened, therefore no afterbirth or other messy aspects. Jesus was inside her, then he was outside her. They don't like it when you call it teleportation.
Is that true?
Short answer: Yes and no.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to my keyboard if we need more.
Yes, it's true, and no, they really don't mind if you call it "teleportation"?
:P
OTOH, nobody likes it when you call the Risen Christ's entering the Upper Room "quantum phase-shifting".

:dancingpie:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I forgot about that!

But the Christ's defiance of physical barriers after the Resurrection is foreshadowed by the miracles of his conception and birth.
Two things:

1) I'm curious as to why there is a difference of opinion (doctrine?) between j1n's Catholic friend and the CPS (official?) Catholic version of the birth.

2) An observation: I don't think anyone has a problem with Christ's quantum phase-shifting peek-a-boo, nor his wave walking, because that's what's been passed down in the Scriptures. I think people (protestants) do have an issue with the idea of a teleportation birth, namely because the Scriptures don't say anything about a miraculous birth in that manner; and secondly it seems to me that a teleportation birth feels a little gnosticky...matter (blood/placenta/natural birth) is bad, and spirit is good. Seems like a perfect interpretation for someone wishing to undermine the Incarnation from the beginning. (Note: I am NOT saying that Catholics are undermining the Incarnation, at all. I see it more as a doctrine to keep Mary a virgin...I'm just observing a (possible) unintended outcome). Del mentioned that the idea of this was around in the second century, but that's precisely when gnosticism was rampant.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:10 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:11 am
[…]

1) I'm curious as to why there is a difference of opinion (doctrine?) between j1n's Catholic friend and the CPS (official?) Catholic version of the birth.

[…]
The dogma is, purely and simply, that of perpetual virginity "before, during, and after" the Birth.
CCC wrote:499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".
An afterbirth wouldn't necessarily have to contradict this, though it would seem to put more spiritualistically-inflected theological syntheses (e.g. those in the vein of the Cappadocian Fathers) under a certain stress.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:29 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:10 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:11 am
[…]

1) I'm curious as to why there is a difference of opinion (doctrine?) between j1n's Catholic friend and the CPS (official?) Catholic version of the birth.

[…]
The dogma is, purely and simply, that of perpetual virginity "before, during, and after" the Birth.
CCC wrote:499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it." And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".
An afterbirth wouldn't necessarily have to contradict this, though it would seem to put more spiritualistically-inflected theological syntheses (e.g. those in the vein of the Cappadocian Fathers) under a certain stress.
That's fair. Thanks for the response
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:14 am

Hmmmmmmmmmm . . .Do you know if Catholicism holds that Jesus was incarnate in the womb or only after He was born? There were certainly other miracles while He was fully human so it's not unreasonable that He could have been fully human in the womb and still have been miraculously delivered out of it.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:00 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:14 am
Hmmmmmmmmmm . . .Do you know if Catholicism holds that Jesus was incarnate in the womb or only after He was born? There were certainly other miracles while He was fully human so it's not unreasonable that He could have been fully human in the womb and still have been miraculously delivered out of it.
Jesus was God Incarnate from the moment of His conception. Mary said “Let it be done,” and God entered His creation.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by j1n » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:02 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:14 am
Hmmmmmmmmmm . . .Do you know if Catholicism holds that Jesus was incarnate in the womb or only after He was born? There were certainly other miracles while He was fully human so it's not unreasonable that He could have been fully human in the womb and still have been miraculously delivered out of it.
But isn't it pretty widely believed (by Catholics and Protestants too) that Jesus was always fully God and fully man? That's what I believe. It's difficult to wrap my head around (sorta like the concept of God being three in one and the concept of "eternity" or "forever". I guess I just chalk it up to being a mystery, and that our understanding isn't anywhere near as deep as God's.
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