Can animals be evil?

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by SlowToke » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:14 am

Animals are driven by very primal instincts related to survival whether it be killing another of their species for mating rights or for better access to food, etc. They are not driven by spiritual motivations because they aren't human. Has any type of spiritual behavior been observed in any animal ever absent of human conditioning? No. No spiritual= no soul. As much as I'd like to think my pets do; they don't. Concepts of good and evil are spiritual concepts that animals lack. So, no. Animals can commit what we might define as evil acts but they are perfectly natural devoid of spirituality.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am

Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by tuttle » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am

It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Thunktank » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:11 am

Animal behaviorist have been able to show evidence more and more that many animal species feel the same emotions that we do, at least to a degree or point. Each species is different of course. So strong the evidence is that I concern myself far more with their welfare than ever and feel more empathy to their plights. Even hunting for food has become a more serious endeavor for me. I continue to find killing even for food harder to do because I know that animals feel and think more than we previously thought they did.

However, every species is different and imparting human nature on animal nature in the formas of “good” and “evil” isn’t right either. Animal moral agency isn’t human moral agency, but is specific to their own species. However, perhaps it can be argued that animals have their own moral behaviors and their own “evils” but they are unique to them, not ours to dictate or judge except in relation to our own interaction with them. Sometimes my dogs do “bad” things by my judgement, not theirs. But they are not created in my image. At least not entirely, maybe in part. So maybe they can be evil too, perhaps less so. :lol:
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by FredS » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by tuttle » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:45 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.
For the record, I have no idea what UB meant by posting that without comment.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by FredS » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:56 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:45 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.
For the record, I have no idea what UB meant by posting that without comment.
For the record, he evidently has no opinion on the subject and is posting illustrative quotes in order to gather data on how self-identified Christians will react when poked. He's here as an impartial observer, not a cordial participant. That's him over there, behind the one way mirror.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by tuttle » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:58 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:56 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:45 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.
For the record, I have no idea what UB meant by posting that without comment.
For the record, he evidently has no opinion on the subject and is posting illustrative quotes in order to gather data on how self-identified Christians will react when poked. He's here as an impartial observer, not a cordial participant. That's him over there, behind the one way mirror.
Come to think of it, I did hear someone over there mumble "Fascinating"

:lol:
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by UncleBob » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:01 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:56 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:45 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.
For the record, I have no idea what UB meant by posting that without comment.
For the record, he evidently has no opinion on the subject and is posting illustrative quotes in order to gather data on how self-identified Christians will react when poked. He's here as an impartial observer, not a cordial participant. That's him over there, behind the one way mirror.
For the record, this is essentially true (not poked precisely but react in light of actual scripture covering the topic) since it is a foolish question to begin with (as the Qohelet noted).
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Onyx » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:15 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:55 am
Onyx wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:14 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:50 am
Animals evil? No.
Animals act in a way that if a person acted the same way we would consider the person evil? Yes.
That’s pretty interesting. What if the animal is thinking basically the same thing as the person, with the same motivation as the person when he does it? Is it still not evil?
This is a good question. The problem is how do we figure out if the animal is actually thinking/motivated as a person in their theoretically evil act?

I recall reading a story about how a gang of chimps more or less ambushed and killed another chimp. All indicators pointed to this being premeditated. Placed in human society, that's seemingly an act of premeditated murder, not unlike what we see in human 'gangs'. But how do we figure out the chimp's motive, especially without falling into the temptation to anthropomorphize them?
It’s challenging to figure out other people’s motives. It’s even challenging to figure out my motives sometimes. It’s clearly possible to anthropomorphise, or project. But surely the best option is to study the animals... like the researchers in the book I mentioned - A Primate’s Memoir. I’m sceptical that there is any reason to assume human motives are of a different class.

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Onyx » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:16 am

coco wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:29 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:55 am
Onyx wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:14 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:50 am
Animals evil? No.
Animals act in a way that if a person acted the same way we would consider the person evil? Yes.
That’s pretty interesting. What if the animal is thinking basically the same thing as the person, with the same motivation as the person when he does it? Is it still not evil?
This is a good question. The problem is how do we figure out if the animal is actually thinking/motivated as a person in their theoretically evil act?

I recall reading a story about how a gang of chimps more or less ambushed and killed another chimp. All indicators pointed to this being premeditated. Placed in human society, that's seemingly an act of premeditated murder, not unlike what we see in human 'gangs'. But how do we figure out the chimp's motive, especially without falling into the temptation to anthropomorphize them?
Start as an atheistic Darwinist, and then anima-pomorphize humans.
Haha. Yes... if it fits the data.

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by wosbald » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:43 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:58 am
Come to think of it, I did hear someone over there mumble "Fascinating"

:lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_76YM-3HXk

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by SlowToke » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:13 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYF0so9mSFc
Yup. Ecclesiates notes the hopeless plight of man before Christ. Before Christ's sacrifice, we were on a level playing field with all beasts as it relates to the afterlife.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Onyx » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:29 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:49 pm
... I saw a duck in pitch black feathers ...
It was probably a dinosaur.

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Winton » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:59 pm

I have no scripture to back up my opinions, but I suspect that when Adan and Eve sinned, this affected all of creation. As the ground became difficult to till, so the animals also became affected. They did not gain souls to be like men, but they also were changed. Some became carnivores. They became cruel, like some of the videos that have been posted. I would not call this evil. Only men became actually evil, since we rejected God's path.

Scripture does state that all creation groans as we wait for the redemption that God promises.

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by coco » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:08 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:26 am
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:16Furthermore, I saw under the sun that in the place of judgment there is wickedness, and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17I said in my heart, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked, since there is a time for every activity and every deed.”

18I said to myself, “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts.” 19For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath.a Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20All go to one place: All come from dust, and all return to dust.

21Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth? 22I have seen that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will come after him?
tuttle wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 am
It's an intriguing question. I do believe animals (along with all of creation) are fallen creatures.
Let the record show that UB & tuttle are, essentially, in agreement. Neither, however, bothered to mention the New Covenant and how that may or may not put us in a protected class. It's that whole 'identity politics' deal we've been debating on CPS lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYF0so9mSFc
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Goats go to Hell
Sheep go to Heaven
Goats go to Hell
My point precisely.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Onyx » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:11 pm

Winton wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:59 pm
I have no scripture to back up my opinions....
I feel ya.

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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Gabriel » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:14 pm

Onyx wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:29 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:49 pm
... I saw a duck in pitch black feathers ...
It was probably a dinosaur.
:bacon:
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Goose55 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:02 pm

I have a bicycling route that has to have me going by one house with a Pit Bull. To me, he looks pretty evil. They say the dogs are just misunderstood, but so was Charles Manson, right?.

I need to get off my rump and reposition the bottle of Counter Attack on my bike, so I can reach it more easily.
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Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by FredS » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:15 am

I don't know how big a bottle of Counter Attack is, but I imagine it's pretty uncomfortable there under yer rump. Maybe you could attach one of the tubes on the bike.
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