Can animals be evil?

For those deep thinkers out there.
User avatar
Hovannes
Minister of Unanswered Threads
Minister of Unanswered Threads
Posts: 25611
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: In the fertile San Joaquin Valley

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Hovannes » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:48 am

I suppose animals can be disguises for demons or even possessed by demons.
But really, why would a demon want the soul of a Basset Hound when he could possess your soul?
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

User avatar
Goose55
Bartleby the Scrivener
Bartleby the Scrivener
Posts: 9390
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Goose55 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:11 am

FredS wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:15 am
I don't know how big a bottle of Counter Attack is, but I imagine it's pretty uncomfortable there under yer rump. Maybe you could attach one of the tubes on the bike.
It's been attached to the vertical post tube. I want it on the top horizontal one
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 29742
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by coco » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:14 am

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:11 am
FredS wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:15 am
I don't know how big a bottle of Counter Attack is, but I imagine it's pretty uncomfortable there under yer rump. Maybe you could attach one of the tubes on the bike.
It's been attached to the vertical post tube. I want it on the top horizontal one
There is a lot to be said for attaching it to the handlebars if you have room. Neil Gunton of crazyguyonabike.com always had two, in case one ran out mid-attack.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
tuttle
Tomnoddy Attercop
Tomnoddy Attercop
Posts: 14067
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by tuttle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:34 am

Hovannes wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:48 am
I suppose animals can be disguises for demons or even possessed by demons.
But really, why would a demon want the soul of a Basset Hound when he could possess your soul?
Just like animals, I don't know if we can fully penetrate the motives/reasonings of demons. Why did the demons ask Christ to cast them into the swine? Just because they were nearby? Just because they wanted to destroy their hosts?

But you do bring up a point that I didn't consider, that animals can be possessed by demons.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 29742
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by coco » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:07 am

Surd Evil: Creation is not as it should be, due to the curse. The entire fabric of creation was affected, not just the ground (Gen 3:17-19). Thus, animals are "red in tooth and claw" not by original design, but as a result of the curse, which impedes the Cultural Mandate (Gen 1:28). This is not a moral evil, but yet cannot be rightly called "good" (c.f. Gen 1:31).

Moral Evil: All men know about the biblical God and his laws by general revelation, and all have sinned (Rom 1:18-21; 3:23). There is no biblical evidence to suggest that animals are able to know and relate to God in the way that humans do. Thus, it is improper to say that animals sin.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 29742
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by coco » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:38 am

Above, I explored the question from a Christian standpoint. I will now look at some options for the atheistic Darwinist, just for funzies. (This will presuppose some kind of volition in animals.)

Deontological ethics: Deontological ethics says that there is some sort of norm that governs all. It usually requires some sort of law from a god or a form of The Good or the like, and thus is not compatible with the materialism that normally goes with Western atheistic Darwinism these days.

Teleological ethics: Teleological ethics says that something is good if it contributes to a good end result. Given that Darwinism praises the survival of the species, the actions of animals that contribute to their survival as a species would then be deemed "good." Note that this puts all species in competition, and what is good for one species is generally going to be bad for another. (This reminds me of Larry Niven's Ringworld.)

Existential ethics: Existential ethics says that something is good if it is authentic, which is being true to one's self and true to the realities of existence. A dog being authentic to his dogness might be obedient, while a cat being authentic to his catness might do just the opposite.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
FredS
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Posts: 22511
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by FredS » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:20 am

Can knievel's be evel?
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 29742
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by coco » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:22 am

FredS wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:20 am
Can knievel's be evel?
FredS wins.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
Jester
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 1938
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Jester » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:23 am

coco wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:22 am
FredS wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:20 am
Can knievel's be evel?
FredS wins.
This needs its own thread.
Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

"O Christmas Tree is going to be a dirge in his home this year I fear."

We almost solved the Mary issue. -FredS

User avatar
gaining_age
Minister of Boogie Dancing
Minister of Boogie Dancing
Posts: 16593
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: sun soaked Arizona

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by gaining_age » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:50 pm

Image
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

User avatar
Hovannes
Minister of Unanswered Threads
Minister of Unanswered Threads
Posts: 25611
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: In the fertile San Joaquin Valley

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Hovannes » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:33 am

We covered this yesterday evening in my Communio group:

Q.90 Art.3 Pt.ll-ll of the Summa

ARTICLE 3. Whether it is lawful to adjure an irrational
creature?
Objection 1: It would seem unlawful to adjure an irrational creature.
An adjuration consists of spoken words. But it is useless to speak to
one that understands not, such as an irrational creature. Therefore it
is vain and unlawful to adjure an irrational creature.

On the contrary, Simon and Jude are related to have adjured
dragons and to have commanded them to withdraw into the desert.
[Historiae Certam. Apost. vi. 19.]

I answer that, Irrational creatures are directed to their own actions by
some other agent. Now the action of what is directed and moved is
also the action of the director and mover: thus the movement of the
arrow is an operation of the archer. Wherefore the operation of the
irrational creature is ascribed not only to it, but also and chiefly to
God, Who disposes the movements of all things. It is also ascribed
to the devil, who, by God's permission, makes use of irrational
creatures in order to inflict harm on man.

Accordingly the adjuration of an irrational creature may be of two
kinds. First, so that the adjuration is referred to the irrational
creature in itself: and in this way it would be vain to adjure an
irrational creature. Secondly, so that it be referred to the director and
mover of the irrational creature, and in this sense a creature of this
kind may be adjured in two ways. First, by way of appeal made to
God, and this relates to those who work miracles by calling on God:
secondly, by way of compulsion, which relates to the devil, who uses
the irrational creature for our harm. This is the kind of adjuration
used in the exorcisms of the Church, whereby the power of the
demons is expelled from an irrational creature. But it is not lawful to
adjure the demons by beseeching them to help us.
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

User avatar
Jester
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 1938
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Jester » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:47 am

Image
Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

"O Christmas Tree is going to be a dirge in his home this year I fear."

We almost solved the Mary issue. -FredS

User avatar
FredS
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Posts: 22511
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by FredS » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:23 am

Hovannes wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:33 am
We covered this yesterday evening in my Communio group:

Q.90 Art.3 Pt.ll-ll of the Summa

ARTICLE 3. Whether it is lawful to adjure an irrational
creature?
Objection 1: It would seem unlawful to adjure an irrational creature.
An adjuration consists of spoken words. But it is useless to speak to
one that understands not, such as an irrational creature. Therefore it
is vain and unlawful to adjure an irrational creature.

On the contrary, Simon and Jude are related to have adjured
dragons and to have commanded them to withdraw into the desert.
[Historiae Certam. Apost. vi. 19.]

I answer that, Irrational creatures are directed to their own actions by
some other agent. Now the action of what is directed and moved is
also the action of the director and mover: thus the movement of the
arrow is an operation of the archer. Wherefore the operation of the
irrational creature is ascribed not only to it, but also and chiefly to
God, Who disposes the movements of all things. It is also ascribed
to the devil, who, by God's permission, makes use of irrational
creatures in order to inflict harm on man.

Accordingly the adjuration of an irrational creature may be of two
kinds. First, so that the adjuration is referred to the irrational
creature in itself: and in this way it would be vain to adjure an
irrational creature. Secondly, so that it be referred to the director and
mover of the irrational creature, and in this sense a creature of this
kind may be adjured in two ways. First, by way of appeal made to
God, and this relates to those who work miracles by calling on God:
secondly, by way of compulsion, which relates to the devil, who uses
the irrational creature for our harm. This is the kind of adjuration
used in the exorcisms of the Church, whereby the power of the
demons is expelled from an irrational creature. But it is not lawful to
adjure the demons by beseeching them to help us.
In other words, goats and cats and under the devil's control.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
Nature of a Man
Usher
Usher
Posts: 468
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:14 am

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:05 am

Onyx wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:47 pm
Image

I read a great book - A Primate's Memoir, by Robert M. Sapolsky. He studied baboons over a long period of time, and wrote a hilarious account of his work. Although he never comes out and says it, the obvious reality through every page of observations about these baboons is that they are NO DIFFERENT from humans in any aspect of their treatment of each other, their factions, ambitions, scheming, some are selfish, some are altruistic, some are remorseless... Page after page I'd gasp at the realization that baboon society is the very same thing as human society. Especially when it comes to political leadership of the troop.
From the various subjects I've spend time reading (e.x. evolutionary psychology), there is a definite link between "evil behaviors" in humans, and the "lower impulses" in animals, and that the behaviors of the truly savage (e.x. the terrorists of ISIS, or mass shooters) mirror in many ways the unrestrained "primal" instincts of animals. (I find that many secular or modern concepts in psychology still show hints of a deeper theological understanding which has been somewhat obscured, such as how Freud compared our "ID" or impluses to those of an animal such as a horse, and our "ego" or mind as the horse's rider, or that which discerns right from wrong and keeps our more bestial impulses in check in daily life).

This doesn't require embracing evolutionary theory, but to me it seems to be a fairly ubiquitous theological concept, which the authors of the Bible and many ancient observers understood to some degree.

My view is that without a higher moral guidance, people will naturally revert to the behaviors of "beasts", whether simple materialistic pleasures such as drunkenness, sexual promiscuity, or drug abuse, or more extreme behaviors such as those of mass shooters and killers we see in the media.

I find it informing, since to me it indicates that every man has at least the theoretical potential to become a "beast" if his impulses were totally unrestrained and he lacked any higher motivation in life than mere sensory gratification (most people wouldn't think they were capable of being a monster such as Dahmer or Richard Ramirez, but I believe in the Standford Prison experiment, it was shown that if directed to do violent or abusive acts by an authority figure, that many people, sans those guided by God or a higher power, would revert to their "primal" instincts and follow through with what they were ordered to do, perhaps as many such as Vietnam veterans did).

(Sorry if this seems morbid, or makes me seem like a freak, lol - I just believe that addressing the dark side of our nature or our potential to be savage rather than human is an important step in our theological journey).

User avatar
Kerdy
Smootchie
Smootchie
Posts: 17021
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Kerdy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:13 am

If you ask my wife, squirrels are demons. She calls them all Devil Squirrel.

Me, I don't know if animals are evil. What I do know is they are tasty.

Honestly, I think some of them are just bad, no different than people, but I don't think it is a choice they make.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

User avatar
Goose55
Bartleby the Scrivener
Bartleby the Scrivener
Posts: 9390
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Goose55 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:23 pm

Mountain Lions can be evil. They kill you, eat your lungs and liver and leave the rest of you to the vultures. House cats could be considered evil, too, I guess...

Image
"I know this hasn't ended well for
you. But I still think we had fun."
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
John-Boy
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
I'm a lover and I'm a sinner
Posts: 33276
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by John-Boy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:48 pm

My dog keeps pooping on the carpet.
Praying - coco
Sometimes memes can be helpful as well as humorous - Jocose
Yer mom is kindhearted and well respected in her community - JMG
And when I am sitting on my new saddle, I will know that my weight is resting upon the collective minds of CPS - GaryinVa

User avatar
tuttle
Tomnoddy Attercop
Tomnoddy Attercop
Posts: 14067
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by tuttle » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:25 am

John-Boy wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:48 pm
My dog keeps pooping on the carpet.
The pooping isn't how you measure the evilness. If the poop is solid, well, everyone makes mistakes. If the poop is liquid mud, that dog is headed for eternal damnation.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 37077
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by UncleBob » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:50 am

The Dog stole one of The Boy's tacos the other night.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
Jester
Brother of the Briar
Brother of the Briar
Posts: 1938
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Can animals be evil?

Post by Jester » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:00 am

UncleBob wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:50 am
The Dog stole one of The Boy's tacos the other night.
Your honor, do we need any further evidence? :taco:
Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

"O Christmas Tree is going to be a dirge in his home this year I fear."

We almost solved the Mary issue. -FredS

Post Reply