Christian Denomination Selector

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Nature of a Man » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:17 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:59 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:20 pm
Cleon wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:55 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:28 am
I like what Jesus said about this matter of denominations:

"The time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you’re called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. It’s who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That’s the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship." ~ John 4:21-24 The Message (MSG)
That's a super loose paraphrase.
Interested to know what it would look like if you paraphrased it. A lot of folk keep saying The Message is a paraphrase but Eugene Peterson had the Hebrew & Greek right there by his side.
I agree with this criticism of The Message from a longer piece about it:

... other critics declare The Message to be not a paraphrase of what the Bible says, but more of a rendering of what Eugene Peterson would like it to say. In an interview with Christianity Today, Peterson described the beginning of the creative process that produced The Message: “I just kind of let go and became playful. And that was when the Sermon on the Mount started. I remember I was down in my basement study, and I did the Beatitudes in about ten minutes. And all of a sudden I realized this could work.” Aside from the impossibility of doing justice to the Sermon on the Mount in ten minutes, one wonders whether playfulness is the appropriate demeanor for those who attempt to “rightly divide the word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). Awe and reverence for a holy God and His holy Word, yes. Playfulness? No.

It in no way resembles a serious translation. Peterson himself has said as much.

Not so much a poor translation as a non-translation.
Not so much a paraphrase as a rewrite.

An interesting chart:
Image

From the same source as the chart:

The Message –
Pros: Easy and fun to read. Phrases Bible verses in a reader-friendly way. Formatting is more like a novel, with less emphasis on chapter and verse number references.
Cons: Not actually a translation of the Bible. It’s considered a paraphrase of the Bible. It should be read and quoted with caution, and it should not be considered an actual translation of God’s Word. I cannot recommend The Message as it is not the Bible, as it’s author is Eugene Peterson, not God.


(I’m not endorsing either of the sources used, but I do believe they articulate the problem with The Message accurately.)
Regarding that, here's the translation of the verse from the King James version - seems strikingly different:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Fainn » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:27 pm

I got Southern Baptist which I am actually thinking of being led to a Southern Baptist church and ministry.
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by jruegg » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:41 pm

coco wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:18 am
Top two: Reformed Baptist and then PCA/OPC, exactly what I expected
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Jocose » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:50 pm

jruegg wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:41 pm
coco wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:18 am
Top two: Reformed Baptist and then PCA/OPC, exactly what I expected
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Guess what I was?
Does it matter?
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Jocose » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:59 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:17 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:59 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:20 pm
Cleon wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:55 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:28 am
I like what Jesus said about this matter of denominations:

"The time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you’re called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. It’s who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That’s the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship." ~ John 4:21-24 The Message (MSG)
That's a super loose paraphrase.
Interested to know what it would look like if you paraphrased it. A lot of folk keep saying The Message is a paraphrase but Eugene Peterson had the Hebrew & Greek right there by his side.
I agree with this criticism of The Message from a longer piece about it:

... other critics declare The Message to be not a paraphrase of what the Bible says, but more of a rendering of what Eugene Peterson would like it to say. In an interview with Christianity Today, Peterson described the beginning of the creative process that produced The Message: “I just kind of let go and became playful. And that was when the Sermon on the Mount started. I remember I was down in my basement study, and I did the Beatitudes in about ten minutes. And all of a sudden I realized this could work.” Aside from the impossibility of doing justice to the Sermon on the Mount in ten minutes, one wonders whether playfulness is the appropriate demeanor for those who attempt to “rightly divide the word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). Awe and reverence for a holy God and His holy Word, yes. Playfulness? No.

It in no way resembles a serious translation. Peterson himself has said as much.

Not so much a poor translation as a non-translation.
Not so much a paraphrase as a rewrite.

An interesting chart:
Image

From the same source as the chart:

The Message –
Pros: Easy and fun to read. Phrases Bible verses in a reader-friendly way. Formatting is more like a novel, with less emphasis on chapter and verse number references.
Cons: Not actually a translation of the Bible. It’s considered a paraphrase of the Bible. It should be read and quoted with caution, and it should not be considered an actual translation of God’s Word. I cannot recommend The Message as it is not the Bible, as it’s author is Eugene Peterson, not God.


(I’m not endorsing either of the sources used, but I do believe they articulate the problem with The Message accurately.)
Regarding that, here's the translation of the verse from the King James version - seems strikingly different:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Despite what Eugene Peterson himself has said of his "the message" book, some folk still believe that "the message" is the closest thing to the original Greek and Hebrew text.

Just saying.

Good luck trying to change that belief in anyone who believes this to be true despite of what Mr. Peterson himself has said.
"And for Freds sake, DO NOT point anyone towards CPS or you'll put them off of both Christianity and pipe smoking forever." ~ FredS

"Death Wish and its progeny are some of the greatest films of the 1970s. If one disagrees with this, he is a foolish man with no taste." ~ TNLP

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Joshoowah » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:23 pm

Jocose wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:59 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:17 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:59 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:20 pm
Cleon wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:55 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:28 am
I like what Jesus said about this matter of denominations:

"The time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you’re called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. It’s who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That’s the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship." ~ John 4:21-24 The Message (MSG)
That's a super loose paraphrase.
Interested to know what it would look like if you paraphrased it. A lot of folk keep saying The Message is a paraphrase but Eugene Peterson had the Hebrew & Greek right there by his side.
I agree with this criticism of The Message from a longer piece about it:

... other critics declare The Message to be not a paraphrase of what the Bible says, but more of a rendering of what Eugene Peterson would like it to say. In an interview with Christianity Today, Peterson described the beginning of the creative process that produced The Message: “I just kind of let go and became playful. And that was when the Sermon on the Mount started. I remember I was down in my basement study, and I did the Beatitudes in about ten minutes. And all of a sudden I realized this could work.” Aside from the impossibility of doing justice to the Sermon on the Mount in ten minutes, one wonders whether playfulness is the appropriate demeanor for those who attempt to “rightly divide the word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). Awe and reverence for a holy God and His holy Word, yes. Playfulness? No.

It in no way resembles a serious translation. Peterson himself has said as much.

Not so much a poor translation as a non-translation.
Not so much a paraphrase as a rewrite.

An interesting chart:
Image

From the same source as the chart:

The Message –
Pros: Easy and fun to read. Phrases Bible verses in a reader-friendly way. Formatting is more like a novel, with less emphasis on chapter and verse number references.
Cons: Not actually a translation of the Bible. It’s considered a paraphrase of the Bible. It should be read and quoted with caution, and it should not be considered an actual translation of God’s Word. I cannot recommend The Message as it is not the Bible, as it’s author is Eugene Peterson, not God.


(I’m not endorsing either of the sources used, but I do believe they articulate the problem with The Message accurately.)
Regarding that, here's the translation of the verse from the King James version - seems strikingly different:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Despite what Eugene Peterson himself has said of his "the message" book, some folk still believe that "the message" is the closest thing to the original Greek and Hebrew text.

Just saying.

Good luck trying to change that belief in anyone who believes this to be true despite of what Mr. Peterson himself has said.
As others have said, The Message, while a nice devotional paraphrase of the Bible, is not a translation that is highly regarded by even the most lax biblical scholars. A decent translation on the paraphrastic side of translations is the NLT, as it attempts to capture the "thought" of the passage without wandering too far from the original text. Also, and this is a good rule of thumb, translations that are written and translated by one person have a tendency to not be reliable. Translation committees are important when it comes to the process of translating, as certain theological leanings can be kept in check. In other words, random theological precepts will not be placed onto the text, but rather the committee will seek to translate the text as faithfully as possible from the original Greek and Hebrew. A hot-button topic that was being discussed amongst several NT scholars a few years back that were working on The Common English Bible was that of substitutionary atonement (particularly, ransom theory) that had been either inadvertently or purposefully placed upon certain texts within the NT, as the Greek was not matching up exactly with those certain texts that had been translated previously with propitiation in mind. Interesting discussion it was. In any case, the point is that it is best, if one is going to use an English Bible, to have a translation that has been mulled over by dozens, if not more, of scholars, pastors, rabbis, etc. in order to keep theological bias' in check. It is for this reason that translations can take years and years (as it should!).
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:23 am

I like this translation myself:

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Goose55 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:21 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:59 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:20 pm
Cleon wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:55 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:28 am
I like what Jesus said about this matter of denominations:

"The time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you’re called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. It’s who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That’s the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship." ~ John 4:21-24 The Message (MSG)
That's a super loose paraphrase.
Interested to know what it would look like if you paraphrased it. A lot of folk keep saying The Message is a paraphrase but Eugene Peterson had the Hebrew & Greek right there by his side.
I agree with this criticism of The Message from a longer piece about it:

... other critics declare The Message to be not a paraphrase of what the Bible says, but more of a rendering of what Eugene Peterson would like it to say. In an interview with Christianity Today, Peterson described the beginning of the creative process that produced The Message: “I just kind of let go and became playful. And that was when the Sermon on the Mount started. I remember I was down in my basement study, and I did the Beatitudes in about ten minutes. And all of a sudden I realized this could work.” Aside from the impossibility of doing justice to the Sermon on the Mount in ten minutes, one wonders whether playfulness is the appropriate demeanor for those who attempt to “rightly divide the word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). Awe and reverence for a holy God and His holy Word, yes. Playfulness? No.

It in no way resembles a serious translation. Peterson himself has said as much.

Not so much a poor translation as a non-translation.
Not so much a paraphrase as a rewrite.

An interesting chart:
Image

From the same source as the chart:

The Message –
Pros: Easy and fun to read. Phrases Bible verses in a reader-friendly way. Formatting is more like a novel, with less emphasis on chapter and verse number references.
Cons: Not actually a translation of the Bible. It’s considered a paraphrase of the Bible. It should be read and quoted with caution, and it should not be considered an actual translation of God’s Word. I cannot recommend The Message as it is not the Bible, as it’s author is Eugene Peterson, not God.


(I’m not endorsing either of the sources used, but I do believe they articulate the problem with The Message accurately.)
I don't know, DP. There are several passages in Peterson's "rendering" that open the scriptures in places other translations have them locked. For instance in the John 13 to 14 transition, Peterson still has Jesus addressing Peter in 14:1, "Don't let this throw you." "This" being Jesus' foretelling Peter's denial. Peterson recognizing there are no chapter divisions.

In Ps 23 the KJV is weak "goodness and mercy shall follow me," whereas in The Message Person uses "pursue," which is most accurate to the Hebrew. Peterson couldn't have been just lucky in his "playfulness" to use the word "pursue." It's obvious he had the Hebrew at his side. Of course, I don't use The Message for scholarly study. I read it so as to drink in the Word and have been most blessed by it.
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by durangopipe » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:58 pm

I don't know, DP. There are several passages in Peterson's "rendering" that open the scriptures in places other translations have them locked. For instance in the John 13 to 14 transition, Peterson still has Jesus addressing Peter in 14:1, "Don't let this throw you." "This" being Jesus' foretelling Peter's denial. Peterson recognizing there are no chapter divisions.

In Ps 23 the KJV is weak "goodness and mercy shall follow me," whereas in The Message Person uses "pursue," which is most accurate to the Hebrew. Peterson couldn't have been just lucky in his "playfulness" to use the word "pursue." It's obvious he had the Hebrew at his side. Of course, I don't use The Message for scholarly study. I read it so as to drink in the Word and have been most blessed by it.
Fair enough, Goose.

No tranlation is the original text, all translations unavoidably introduce (term chosen for simplicity, not perfect accuracy) “errors.” Even the seemingly simple matter of defining “original text” is terribly complex.

This topic is one that the history of the Church and it’s unfortunate divisions is, to a very large degree, shaped by. This matter was no trivial contributor to the Reformation. The concept of the “priesthood of the believer’ was partly defined by disagreement over this very issue.

The several sometimes divisive doctrines of the Holy Spirit are variously formed, at least in part, over disagreements regarding this matter.

We won’t resolve this complexity here.
Each of us should, as you do, approach Scripture prayerfully. In humility.

The rest, is fit for a long, loving, conversation over tobacco and perhaps a good beer! (Or two.)
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Goose55 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:13 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:58 pm
We won’t resolve this complexity here.
Each of us should, as you do, approach Scripture prayerfully. In humility.

The rest, is fit for a long, loving, conversation over tobacco and perhaps a good beer! (Or two.)
I like that.

I also like that on the other side of Jordan the Father isn't going to ask me which version of the scriptures I read. He'll just be glad that they helped get me there.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:29 pm

You tried, Durango. Bless you for that.
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:23 pm

Durango’s comment encapsulates how I feel about the entire theology forum.


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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Goose55 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:59 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:13 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:58 pm
We won’t resolve this complexity here.
Each of us should, as you do, approach Scripture prayerfully. In humility.

The rest, is fit for a long, loving, conversation over tobacco and perhaps a good beer! (Or two.)
I like that.

I also like that on the other side of Jordan the Father isn't going to ask me which version of the scriptures I read. He'll just be glad that they helped get me there.
No reply to that one. As it should be.
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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:06 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:59 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:13 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:58 pm
We won’t resolve this complexity here.
Each of us should, as you do, approach Scripture prayerfully. In humility.

The rest, is fit for a long, loving, conversation over tobacco and perhaps a good beer! (Or two.)
I like that.

I also like that on the other side of Jordan the Father isn't going to ask me which version of the scriptures I read. He'll just be glad that they helped get me there.
No reply to that one. As it should be.

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:36 pm

Jocose wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:59 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:17 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:59 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:20 pm
Cleon wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:55 am
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:28 am
I like what Jesus said about this matter of denominations:

"The time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you’re called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. It’s who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That’s the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship." ~ John 4:21-24 The Message (MSG)
That's a super loose paraphrase.
Interested to know what it would look like if you paraphrased it. A lot of folk keep saying The Message is a paraphrase but Eugene Peterson had the Hebrew & Greek right there by his side.
I agree with this criticism of The Message from a longer piece about it:

... other critics declare The Message to be not a paraphrase of what the Bible says, but more of a rendering of what Eugene Peterson would like it to say. In an interview with Christianity Today, Peterson described the beginning of the creative process that produced The Message: “I just kind of let go and became playful. And that was when the Sermon on the Mount started. I remember I was down in my basement study, and I did the Beatitudes in about ten minutes. And all of a sudden I realized this could work.” Aside from the impossibility of doing justice to the Sermon on the Mount in ten minutes, one wonders whether playfulness is the appropriate demeanor for those who attempt to “rightly divide the word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). Awe and reverence for a holy God and His holy Word, yes. Playfulness? No.

It in no way resembles a serious translation. Peterson himself has said as much.

Not so much a poor translation as a non-translation.
Not so much a paraphrase as a rewrite.

An interesting chart:
Image

From the same source as the chart:

The Message –
Pros: Easy and fun to read. Phrases Bible verses in a reader-friendly way. Formatting is more like a novel, with less emphasis on chapter and verse number references.
Cons: Not actually a translation of the Bible. It’s considered a paraphrase of the Bible. It should be read and quoted with caution, and it should not be considered an actual translation of God’s Word. I cannot recommend The Message as it is not the Bible, as it’s author is Eugene Peterson, not God.


(I’m not endorsing either of the sources used, but I do believe they articulate the problem with The Message accurately.)
Regarding that, here's the translation of the verse from the King James version - seems strikingly different:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Despite what Eugene Peterson himself has said of his "the message" book, some folk still believe that "the message" is the closest thing to the original Greek and Hebrew text.

Just saying.

Good luck trying to change that belief in anyone who believes this to be true despite of what Mr. Peterson himself has said.
I wasn't aware that people believed that, from what little I'd heard of the Message, I'd always thought it was regarded as just a translation into simpler English to make it easier to read.

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by ReverendThom » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:18 pm

7th Day - 100%

Ummmmmmmm no

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:31 pm

ReverendThom wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:18 pm
7th Day - 100%

Ummmmmmmm no

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Re: Christian Denomination Selector

Post by Goose55 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:27 am

ReverendThom wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:18 pm
7th Day - 100%

Ummmmmmmm no
Oh, no! Stay clear of them. They do wonderful medical missionary work w/ the long-established Loma Linda University School of Medicine, but their theology offers little hope to people.

Sorry to those who are SDA here, if there are any. Kind of doubtful since they are all non-smoking.
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