Ethics of eating meat

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:49 pm

Jocose wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
Click
Thanks for that, seem to be some thought-provoking discussions in that thread.

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Cleon » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:01 pm

If it weren't for cattle, chickens, and fish I'd starve to death. Those animals have been an integral part of my journey towards a healthier life. I find it ethical to eat anything that moves. Yes, even the dog if I needed to.

It's sugar and refined flour that're the debil!
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:08 pm

Cleon wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:01 pm
If it weren't for cattle, chickens, and fish I'd starve to death. Those animals have been an integral part of my journey towards a healthier life. I find it ethical to eat anything that moves. Yes, even the dog if I needed to.

It's sugar and refined flour that're the debil!
For me, it's not necessarily even the meat or dairy itself, but some personal skepticism about modern food processing and prep methods.

That's one reason I prefer fish lately, since they're wild caught (I'd eat more game meat if I could, but I'm not a hunter and wouldn't be able to afford eating it on a regular basis).

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Cleon » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:15 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:08 pm
Cleon wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:01 pm
If it weren't for cattle, chickens, and fish I'd starve to death. Those animals have been an integral part of my journey towards a healthier life. I find it ethical to eat anything that moves. Yes, even the dog if I needed to.

It's sugar and refined flour that're the debil!
For me, it's not necessarily even the meat or dairy itself, but some personal skepticism about modern food processing and prep methods.

That's one reason I prefer fish lately, since they're wild caught (I'd eat more game meat if I could, but I'm not a hunter and wouldn't be able to afford eating it on a regular basis).
I'd love to eat more wild game, but I don't. I have paid for local free range beef and chicken. Eggs from a dirt pecking, bug eating chickens are heads and tails better than the ones you get at the store.
Last edited by Cleon on Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Jocose » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:15 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:49 pm
Jocose wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:40 pm
Click
Thanks for that, seem to be some thought-provoking discussions in that thread.
Theres another thread or 2 about the topic as well. I'm not sure how to search for it tho..
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Del » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:22 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:15 am
Won't get into the nitty-gritty of it, however my views on the subject are that eating meat in moderation is more or less fine, and might arguably be a 'necessary evil' in some cases in life - veganism might be a more enlightened path for some to strive for, but wouldn't be expected for most paths in life, nor should it accompanied by excessive guilt if one doesn't.

I aim to eat more or less vegan most days of the week, and still occasionally eat meat or fish - but try to aim it for a weekend or special occasion, as well as make an effort to aim for meat which is ethically raised or procured (one reason I now prefer wild-caught fish or farm-raised meats to commercial processed meat).
I wouldn't say that "vegan" is a "more enlightened path." I'd say it's a trendy crackpot notion, preferred by folks who collect reasons to feel self-righteous.

A century ago, that same class of people were religiously devoted to prohibiting alcohol. And eugenics. Remember?

I have grown to mistrust the passing moral fads. The modern Vegan class cares about the souls of animals. The same people demand legalized cannabis and ready access to subsidized abortion.
===============================================

Dietary choices are personal. I don't like the idea of "experts" telling all of us how to eat.

There are many popular diet theories that vary from the cultural norm. (I'm referring to habitual diet schemes, not so much the weight-loss regimens.) Gluten-free, Mediterranean, vegan, South Beach, paleo, ....

I am not persuaded that any of these are "moral" or "enlightened" above any other.

Even the religious diets of kosher and halal and various Christian fasting regimens are not, in themselves, moral. The virtue comes from the believer's desire to be humble and obedient in following the rules, not in the diets themselves.
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:44 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:22 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:15 am
Won't get into the nitty-gritty of it, however my views on the subject are that eating meat in moderation is more or less fine, and might arguably be a 'necessary evil' in some cases in life - veganism might be a more enlightened path for some to strive for, but wouldn't be expected for most paths in life, nor should it accompanied by excessive guilt if one doesn't.

I aim to eat more or less vegan most days of the week, and still occasionally eat meat or fish - but try to aim it for a weekend or special occasion, as well as make an effort to aim for meat which is ethically raised or procured (one reason I now prefer wild-caught fish or farm-raised meats to commercial processed meat).
I wouldn't say that "vegan" is a "more enlightened path." I'd say it's a trendy crackpot notion, preferred by folks who collect reasons to feel self-righteous.

A century ago, that same class of people were religiously devoted to prohibiting alcohol. And eugenics. Remember?

I have grown to mistrust the passing moral fads. The modern Vegan class cares about the souls of animals. The same people demand legalized cannabis and ready access to subsidized abortion.
===============================================

Dietary choices are personal. I don't like the idea of "experts" telling all of us how to eat.

There are many popular diet theories that vary from the cultural norm. (I'm referring to habitual diet schemes, not so much the weight-loss regimens.) Gluten-free, Mediterranean, vegan, South Beach, paleo, ....

I am not persuaded that any of these are "moral" or "enlightened" above any other.

Even the religious diets of kosher and halal and various Christian fasting regimens are not, in themselves, moral. The virtue comes from the believer's desire to be humble and obedient in following the rules, not in the diets themselves.
I agree as far as veganism as a "fad" goes, or pseudo-moral "fads" in general which tend to be inconsistent or hypocritical with overarching principles they're allegedly founded on - such as advocating ecological sustainability, but being tolerant of homosexuality, elective abortion, or degenerate sexual preferences which corroborate with non-sustainability in human ecology.

I was talking more about veganism as universal concept though, and how it would tie in with Biblical concepts regarding food consumption and treatment of animals, or just principles of pacifism or nonviolence in general.

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm

Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?

First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:10 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?

First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Wait. Hold on. Are you suggesting that humans in a given societal economy anywhere does not have to be vegan? That's mighty bold. Especially for a dude in California.
DL Jake

Feel free to use that quote in your signature. Stanley76 » 22 Feb 2019 21:50

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:12 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:10 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?

First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Wait. Hold on. Are you suggesting that humans in a given societal economy anywhere does not have to be vegan? That's mighty bold. Especially for a dude in California.
I keep hearing about the existence of vegans. Haven’t seen many though. They seem to hang out at Mothers Market what few there are.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:27 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:12 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:10 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?

First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Wait. Hold on. Are you suggesting that humans in a given societal economy anywhere does not have to be vegan? That's mighty bold. Especially for a dude in California.
I keep hearing about the existence of vegans. Haven’t seen many though. They seem to hang out at Mothers Market what few there are.
Clearly, you've not visited my company's Columbus, Ohio office.

4th floor.

Coffee area.

There's an essential oils table for FredS sake.
DL Jake

Feel free to use that quote in your signature. Stanley76 » 22 Feb 2019 21:50

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:33 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:27 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:12 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:10 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?

First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Wait. Hold on. Are you suggesting that humans in a given societal economy anywhere does not have to be vegan? That's mighty bold. Especially for a dude in California.
I keep hearing about the existence of vegans. Haven’t seen many though. They seem to hang out at Mothers Market what few there are.
Clearly, you've not visited my company's Columbus, Ohio office.

4th floor.

Coffee area.

There's an essential oils table for FredS sake.
Essential oils are awesome! What do essential oils have to do with veganism?

You’re weird, DL. :clown:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:49 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:33 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:27 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:12 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:10 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?

First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Wait. Hold on. Are you suggesting that humans in a given societal economy anywhere does not have to be vegan? That's mighty bold. Especially for a dude in California.
I keep hearing about the existence of vegans. Haven’t seen many though. They seem to hang out at Mothers Market what few there are.
Clearly, you've not visited my company's Columbus, Ohio office.

4th floor.

Coffee area.

There's an essential oils table for FredS sake.
Essential oils are awesome! What do essential oils have to do with veganism?

You’re weird, DL. :clown:
Peppermint & cinnamon seem to do well with the Veganites.

It's the Tri-Tip essential oil that seems to be causing them just a bit of a problem.
DL Jake

Feel free to use that quote in your signature. Stanley76 » 22 Feb 2019 21:50

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?
Concepts of attempting to define ethical treatment of animals is a fairly universal concept of world religions, from what I've seen. Specifics seem to vary somewhat.

My understanding is that most world religions never required strict veganism, but permitted meat in moderation with an emphasis on healthy preparation methods and respectful treatment of the animals - there may also have been certain traditions or movements within world religions which practiced austere veganism, similar to monastic or ascetic traditions within Christianity which practiced strict nonviolence or renunciation of worldly comforts.
First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Veganism is as simple as beans and rice - doesn't seem like a first world privilege to me (but feel free to explain what you meant in more detail).

Especially given that meat is typically rarer and more expensive to produce than plant based foods are. Raising a cow and taking it to the butcher would've been much more difficult than simply growing simple crops.

In 3rd world economies, or historically, I think it would have been much rarer to have the luxury of enjoying meat at all, unless one was a hunter or farmer by trade, and could afford enjoy the best cuts, or was a nobleman with his own private chef at his disposal. I'd assume the average person's diet would have had far less easy access to meat than one does in the modern world, with a fast food joint 10 minutes away.

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Thunktank » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:15 am

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?
Concepts of attempting to define ethical treatment of animals is a fairly universal concept of world religions, from what I've seen. Specifics seem to vary somewhat.

My understanding is that most world religions never required strict veganism, but permitted meat in moderation with an emphasis on healthy preparation methods and respectful treatment of the animals - there may also have been certain traditions or movements within world religions which practiced austere veganism, similar to monastic or ascetic traditions within Christianity which practiced strict nonviolence or renunciation of worldly comforts.
First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Veganism is as simple as beans and rice - doesn't seem like a first world privilege to me (but feel free to explain what you meant in more detail).

Especially given that meat is typically rarer and more expensive to produce than plant based foods are. Raising a cow and taking it to the butcher would've been much more difficult than simply growing simple crops.

In 3rd world economies, or historically, I think it would have been much rarer to have the luxury of enjoying meat at all, unless one was a hunter or farmer by trade, and could afford enjoy the best cuts, or was a nobleman with his own private chef at his disposal. I'd assume the average person's diet would have had far less easy access to meat than one does in the modern world, with a fast food joint 10 minutes away.
Americans of reasonable means are privileged, including how we eat. The fact that we can go online and post about it is privileged. But I was thinking about the 13 year old girls I’ve heard of around here who won’t eat the chicken given to them for dinner because they have convinced themselves that chickens are a protected class. Then they somehow convince the adults in their lives to make a special trip to Trader Joe’s to pick up some vegan patty to serve them instead.

Anyway, this raised a farm boy, hunter, and veteran is going back to sleep. I’ll leave you to hang out with the thoughts of Orthodox and Buddhist monks and teenage girls to talk about meat abstinence, husbandry ethics, non violence and vegan eating. I’m looking forward to eating my free range eggs in the morning.
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Jocose » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:59 am

I've got the meat sweats.
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Nature of a Man » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:31 am

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:15 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:54 pm
Whoa, veganism as a universal concept?
Concepts of attempting to define ethical treatment of animals is a fairly universal concept of world religions, from what I've seen. Specifics seem to vary somewhat.

My understanding is that most world religions never required strict veganism, but permitted meat in moderation with an emphasis on healthy preparation methods and respectful treatment of the animals - there may also have been certain traditions or movements within world religions which practiced austere veganism, similar to monastic or ascetic traditions within Christianity which practiced strict nonviolence or renunciation of worldly comforts.
First and foremost, a vegan diet is a first world privilege.
Veganism is as simple as beans and rice - doesn't seem like a first world privilege to me (but feel free to explain what you meant in more detail).

Especially given that meat is typically rarer and more expensive to produce than plant based foods are. Raising a cow and taking it to the butcher would've been much more difficult than simply growing simple crops.

In 3rd world economies, or historically, I think it would have been much rarer to have the luxury of enjoying meat at all, unless one was a hunter or farmer by trade, and could afford enjoy the best cuts, or was a nobleman with his own private chef at his disposal. I'd assume the average person's diet would have had far less easy access to meat than one does in the modern world, with a fast food joint 10 minutes away.
Americans of reasonable means are privileged, including how we eat. The fact that we can go online and post about it is privileged. But I was thinking about the 13 year old girls I’ve heard of around here who won’t eat the chicken given to them for dinner because they have convinced themselves that chickens are a protected class. Then they somehow convince the adults in their lives to make a special trip to Trader Joe’s to pick up some vegan patty to serve them instead.

Anyway, this raised a farm boy, hunter, and veteran is going back to sleep. I’ll leave you to hang out with the thoughts of Orthodox and Buddhist monks and teenage girls to talk about meat abstinence, husbandry ethics, non violence and vegan eating. I’m looking forward to eating my free range eggs in the morning.
Well, I was trying to talk about "veganism" as simply people deciding to not eat meat - not fancy schmancy things like "vegan patties" (barf) or fancy Vegan Grocery stores.

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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by Hovannes » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:15 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:38 am
Not to put too fine a point on it, but who cares?
+1
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:25 am

A few of you don't seem to fully understand agriculture. You can feed your table scraps to pigs. You can put your cows out to graze in areas not suitable for crops. You can put a goat in your yard and retire your lawnmower. You can feed ground up chicken bones and feathers to farm-raised fish. Raising animals for meat isn't necessarily a net drain on resources. Ruminants especially are fantastic little factories that can convert grass into a nice steak or gyro. It's probably the least damaging way to produce protein.

Also, in as much as most row crops (wheat, oats, corn, sorghum, milo, etc) are evolved grasses we shouldn't rely so heavily on them as part of our diet.
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Re: Ethics of eating meat

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:06 am

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:25 am
A few of you don't seem to fully understand agriculture. You can feed your table scraps to pigs. You can put your cows out to graze in areas not suitable for crops. You can put a goat in your yard and retire your lawnmower. You can feed ground up chicken bones and feathers to farm-raised fish. Raising animals for meat isn't necessarily a net drain on resources. Ruminants especially are fantastic little factories that can convert grass into a nice steak or gyro. It's probably the least damaging way to produce protein.

Also, in as much as most row crops (wheat, oats, corn, sorghum, milo, etc) are evolved grasses we shouldn't rely so heavily on them as part of our diet.
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