Love

For those deep thinkers out there.

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FredS
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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:10 pm
Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion.
Who are you referring to as “you've,” Noam?
It isn’t clear which poster(s) you’re referring to.
I reckon it's me, since I've written that I love my gay daughter. NoaM evidently believes I shouldn't because she's a deviant and all.

EDIT - Ah, he was typing at the same time I was. I was correct in that he thinks I should pity rather than love my daughter.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

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Re: Love

Post by Del » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:58 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:10 pm
Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion.
Who are you referring to as “you've,” Noam?
It isn’t clear which poster(s) you’re referring to.
I reckon it's me, since I've written that I love my gay daughter. NoaM evidently believes I shouldn't because she's a deviant and all.

EDIT - Ah, he was typing at the same time I was. I was correct in that he thinks I should pity rather than love my daughter.
Chesterton talked about this tension, a century ago. A lot of wise people did so.

We live in an age of insanity, where truth is set in opposition to love/mercy/forgiveness. The result is that we seem to have to choose between a truth that is pitiless, or a love that is truthless.

As Christians, we are called to "speak the truth in love." So we don't drive away our sons and daughters who seek love in the same-sex relationships, or who struggle with drinking and drug dependency, or who make some bad life decisions. We love them. We desire the highest and best for them.

We welcome them home, whenever we can (if they don't pose a danger to anyone). We comfort them and affirm the good in their lives.

And when the time is right, we remind them that these choices are not the the highest and best happiness that they are made for. We speak the truth in love.
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Re: Love

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm

Can we all give UncleBob the credit for one brilliant troll? He hit the proverbial Pavlovian ping there. "Phelps!" got the instant "transexual, transvestite, sodomy, LGBT" response.

I'd tip my hat if I was wearing one.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:10 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:10 pm
Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion.
Who are you referring to as “you've,” Noam?
It isn’t clear which poster(s) you’re referring to.
I reckon it's me, since I've written that I love my gay daughter. NoaM evidently believes I shouldn't because she's a deviant and all.

EDIT - Ah, he was typing at the same time I was. I was correct in that he thinks I should pity rather than love my daughter.
Well no, that wasn't my argument.

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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:12 pm

I regret this thread has turned towards another discussion of homosexuality. I'm sure that's not where NoaM intended it to go when he started it (yeah right).

The guy has a simple enough question. What is love? A couple guys quoted Bible verses and they were glossed over. But really, isn't that a good place to start?

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:15 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:10 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:10 pm
Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion.
Who are you referring to as “you've,” Noam?
It isn’t clear which poster(s) you’re referring to.
I reckon it's me, since I've written that I love my gay daughter. NoaM evidently believes I shouldn't because she's a deviant and all.

EDIT - Ah, he was typing at the same time I was. I was correct in that he thinks I should pity rather than love my daughter.
Well no, that wasn't my argument.
I don't know what your 'argument' is/was. I know what you wrote to me - "Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion." You think I've conflated or confused love with pity. And that's exactly what I said you think.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:19 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:15 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:10 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:10 pm
Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion.
Who are you referring to as “you've,” Noam?
It isn’t clear which poster(s) you’re referring to.
I reckon it's me, since I've written that I love my gay daughter. NoaM evidently believes I shouldn't because she's a deviant and all.

EDIT - Ah, he was typing at the same time I was. I was correct in that he thinks I should pity rather than love my daughter.
Well no, that wasn't my argument.
I don't know what your 'argument' is/was. I know what you wrote to me - "Well yes, a lot of what you've conflated with "love" or "mercy" is, in my perspective, really just pity, in my opinion." You think I've conflated or confused love with pity. And that's exactly what I said you think.
Well no, my argument would be that if someone views it as insensitive to point out, for example, that a transvestite prostitute isn't the same as a legitimate intersex person, that this would be 'pity' rather than love.

I also try to avoid labeling individuals as "deviants" and just focusing on the issues.

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Re: Love

Post by Cleon » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:27 pm

Pity isn't so bad. At least as far as I understand it. I think of it as flowing from love and sometimes almost synonymous with it, like mercy and charity. Pity, to me, conveys a sense of empathy and compassion towards the loved one, if that makes sense.
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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:29 pm

Cleon wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:27 pm
Pity isn't so bad. At least as far as I understand it. I think of it as flowing from love and sometimes almost synonymous with it, like mercy and charity. Pity, to me, conveys a sense of empathy and compassion towards the loved one, if that makes sense.
I tend to view pity as feeling sorry for someone's misfortune or circumstances, but not being willing to address the harsher issues because it makes one feel uncomfortable (including their own degree of responsibility in it), but that's just me.

But yes, I'd agree that if a person isn't showing any mercy where mercy is due, this is a different problem altogether.

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Re: Love

Post by Cleon » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:34 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:29 pm
Cleon wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:27 pm
Pity isn't so bad. At least as far as I understand it. I think of it as flowing from love and sometimes almost synonymous with it, like mercy and charity. Pity, to me, conveys a sense of empathy and compassion towards the loved one, if that makes sense.
I tend to view pity as feeling sorry for someone's misfortune or circumstances, but not being willing to address the harsher issues because it makes one feel uncomfortable (including their own degree of responsibility in it), but that's just me.

But yes, I'd agree that if a person isn't showing any mercy where mercy is due, this is a different problem altogether.
Okay.

In general, I think people are having a hard time understanding you. I suppose I'll just ask you directly:

Are you a Christian?
What faith tradition do you come from?

That might give us a little more perspective.
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Cleon wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:34 pm
Okay.

In general, I think people are having a hard time understanding you. I suppose I'll just ask you directly:

Are you a Christian?
I consider myself a Christian, yes, though I admit I'd like to read more of the Bible and the Gospels in particular.
What faith tradition do you come from?
I've had family members in both Catholic and Protestant (mainly Southern Baptist) churches, but I don't identify strongly with a denomination, and I'd consider a lot of my views "nontraditional" and based on my own thoughts and inquiries. (Some of my thoughts aren't totally set in stone and I'm still "fleshing things out").

I've also spent time attempting to study sciences and some philosophies and world religions (mainly Eastern religion) in order to gain a better perspective on things.

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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 pm

Here's the deal NoaM - I think you have a disordered view of Christianity, of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Most everyone else here does not. There's a gap. I know at least in my case, I read and interpret something you've written and you, in turn say, "No, what I meant was this other thing." We're not connecting.

My suggestion for you would be to find a Christian in real life that you respect, ask them what church they attend, and attend it yourself. Go four times before giving up on it. You can't get to where you want to be by sequestering yourself and reading about it. You need to find a way to live it.

My path to Christ started as a heart thing. I was head over heels for Jesus. Then it was a head thing. I wanted to learn everything I could about Christ and His Church. Now I'm circling back to the heart thing because knowing about Jesus is less important than simply knowing Him. There's a quote by a fella named Rumi (a Muslim) that I like. He said "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." I'm not suggesting you be like Forrest Gump, just be less certain that you have or can figure it all out in your head. Or any of it for that matter.

EDIT - I certainly can't judge the condition of your soul. I wouldn't attempt it if we were the best of friends in the real world. But I can draw conclusions from you write here. And it's messed up.
Last edited by FredS on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm

John 11:25-26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. You feelin' me?
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:43 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 pm
Here's the deal NoaM - I think you have a disordered view of Christianity, of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Most everyone else here does not. There's a gap. I know at least in my case, I read and interpret something you've written and you, in turn say, "No, what I meant was this other thing." We're not connecting.

My suggestion for you would be to find a Christian in real life that you respect, ask them what church they attend, and attend it yourself. Go four times before giving up on it. You can't get to where you want to be by sequestering yourself and reading about it. You need to find a way to live it.

My path to Christ started as a heart thing. I was head over heels for Jesus. Then it was a head thing. I wanted to learn everything I could about Christ and His Church. Now I'm circling back to the heart thing because knowing about Jesus is less important than simply knowing Him. There's a quote by a fella named Rumi (a Muslim) that I like. He said "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." I'm not suggesting you be like Forrest Gump, just be less certain that you have or can figure it all out in your head. Or any of it for that matter.
Well, it's difficult to say, but my view is the the a person or culture's first step is learning "not to be sinful", then once that is maintained as a habit, they have the liberty of focusing on doing good without having to actively worry about "not sinning".

If a person is trying to focus on the "good" but ignores the first step which is avoiding sin, then I don't believe it works properly or is sustainable due to the foundation being unsound.

(Likewise, if they only focuses on trying to "not be sinful" but not actively doing good, then I believe it potentially becomes ritualistic and miserly).

My view is that culture wants to embrace the "new" and messages of good things such as peace and love - but ignore the "old" or the sins which have to be overcome to make those things sustainable, and this is demonstrated by many rampant cultural ills in society and media today. So as a result, the message of "love" gets distorted and not fulfilled properly.
Last edited by Nature of a Man on Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Love

Post by Hovannes » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:51 pm

"Love conquers all things except poverty and toothache."---Mae West
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Re: Love

Post by gaining_age » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:53 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:43 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 pm
Here's the deal NoaM - I think you have a disordered view of Christianity, of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Most everyone else here does not. There's a gap. I know at least in my case, I read and interpret something you've written and you, in turn say, "No, what I meant was this other thing." We're not connecting.

My suggestion for you would be to find a Christian in real life that you respect, ask them what church they attend, and attend it yourself. Go four times before giving up on it. You can't get to where you want to be by sequestering yourself and reading about it. You need to find a way to live it.

My path to Christ started as a heart thing. I was head over heels for Jesus. Then it was a head thing. I wanted to learn everything I could about Christ and His Church. Now I'm circling back to the heart thing because knowing about Jesus is less important than simply knowing Him. There's a quote by a fella named Rumi (a Muslim) that I like. He said "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." I'm not suggesting you be like Forrest Gump, just be less certain that you have or can figure it all out in your head. Or any of it for that matter.

EDIT - I certainly can't judge the condition of your soul. I wouldn't attempt it if we were the best of friends in the real world. But I can draw conclusions from you write here. And it's messed up.
Well, it's difficult to say, but my view is the the a person or culture's first step is learning "not to be sinful", then once that is maintained as a habit, they have the liberty of focusing on doing good without having to actively worry about "not sinning".

If a person is trying to focus on the "good" but ignores the first step which is avoiding sin, then I don't believe it works properly or is sustainable due to the foundation being unsound.

(Likewise, if they only focuses on trying to "not be sinful" but not actively doing good, then I believe it potentially becomes ritualistic and miserly).

My view is that culture wants to embrace the "new" and messages of good things such as peace and love - but ignore the "old" or the sins which have to be overcome to make those things sustainable, and this is demonstrated by many rampant cultural ills in society and media today. So as a result, the message of "love" gets distorted and not fulfilled properly.
You may want to reread Romans 6-8 with a focus on Chapter 7.


Snippet from Paul's letter (ch7)
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
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The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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Re: Love

Post by gaining_age » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:54 pm

Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:53 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:43 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 pm
Here's the deal NoaM - I think you have a disordered view of Christianity, of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Most everyone else here does not. There's a gap. I know at least in my case, I read and interpret something you've written and you, in turn say, "No, what I meant was this other thing." We're not connecting.

My suggestion for you would be to find a Christian in real life that you respect, ask them what church they attend, and attend it yourself. Go four times before giving up on it. You can't get to where you want to be by sequestering yourself and reading about it. You need to find a way to live it.

My path to Christ started as a heart thing. I was head over heels for Jesus. Then it was a head thing. I wanted to learn everything I could about Christ and His Church. Now I'm circling back to the heart thing because knowing about Jesus is less important than simply knowing Him. There's a quote by a fella named Rumi (a Muslim) that I like. He said "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." I'm not suggesting you be like Forrest Gump, just be less certain that you have or can figure it all out in your head. Or any of it for that matter.

EDIT - I certainly can't judge the condition of your soul. I wouldn't attempt it if we were the best of friends in the real world. But I can draw conclusions from you write here. And it's messed up.
Well, it's difficult to say, but my view is the the a person or culture's first step is learning "not to be sinful", then once that is maintained as a habit, they have the liberty of focusing on doing good without having to actively worry about "not sinning".

If a person is trying to focus on the "good" but ignores the first step which is avoiding sin, then I don't believe it works properly or is sustainable due to the foundation being unsound.

(Likewise, if they only focuses on trying to "not be sinful" but not actively doing good, then I believe it potentially becomes ritualistic and miserly).

My view is that culture wants to embrace the "new" and messages of good things such as peace and love - but ignore the "old" or the sins which have to be overcome to make those things sustainable, and this is demonstrated by many rampant cultural ills in society and media today. So as a result, the message of "love" gets distorted and not fulfilled properly.
You may want to reread Romans 6-8 with a focus on Chapter 7.


Snippet from Paul's letter (ch7)
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
Thanks for that verse.

I'd argue that a lot of my views are very "Stoic" compared to many of the individuals here. (I was somewhat interested in Stoicism).

But I've seen how easy in this culture it is to take advantage of women, or spend life on aimless or meaningless things and pursuits, not to mention all of the false and worldviews which are touted as ways to happiness in mass media - so I think that a stoic direction is a good direction to take things.

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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 pm
I'd argue that a lot of my views are very "Stoic" compared to many of the individuals here. (I was somewhat interested in Stoicism).

But I've seen how easy in this culture it is to take advantage of women, or spend life on aimless or meaningless things and pursuits, not to mention all of the false and worldviews which are touted as ways to happiness in mass media - so I think that a stoic direction is a good direction to take things.
Why? What do you hope stoicism will do for you? Or us, or whoever you have a mind to turn that direction?

Where do you think that call to stoicism comes from? You seem keenly aware of 'culture' or 'mass culture' as you've named it elsewhere. In fact you seem to be repulsed by the culture around you (particularly it's hyper focus on sex) and you seem to want to separate yourself from it. I wonder if your desire for stoicism is a reaction to your grim assessment of the 'culture'.

(not being an ass, trying to understand what you mean)
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: Love

Post by Nature of a Man » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:57 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 pm
I'd argue that a lot of my views are very "Stoic" compared to many of the individuals here. (I was somewhat interested in Stoicism).

But I've seen how easy in this culture it is to take advantage of women, or spend life on aimless or meaningless things and pursuits, not to mention all of the false and worldviews which are touted as ways to happiness in mass media - so I think that a stoic direction is a good direction to take things.
Why? What do you hope stoicism will do for you? Or us, or whoever you have a mind to turn that direction?

Where do you think that call to stoicism comes from? You seem keenly aware of 'culture' or 'mass culture' as you've named it elsewhere. In fact you seem to be repulsed by the culture around you (particularly it's hyper focus on sex) and you seem to want to separate yourself from it. I wonder if your desire for stoicism is a reaction to your grim assessment of the 'culture'.

(not being an ass, trying to understand what you mean)
The problem isn't "sex", but rather degenerate conceptions of it invented by consumerist societies. (My view is that sex has its roots in dance, even in the animal kingdom, and if society merely taught people how to dance gracefully, it would eliminate the void that the consumerist sex industry fills, as well as much of the superfluous advice on "dating" or dysfunctional relationships which sells on the mass market).

And not even "sex" in specific, but sex as a manifestation of hedonism or degenerate worldviews which tout ease, idleness, and materialism as a false way to happiness - I see these worldviews as fairly ubiquitous in mass culture, and believe that confronting them and replacing with views which encourage people to embrace and overcome hardship and challenges as a means of achieving happiness.

(I believe this is a sound Biblical concept as well, since the Bible was very strongly about individuals and cultures making progress through sacrifice and overcoming odds, while discouraging mindlessly pursuing idleness and impulse gratification).

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