Love

For those deep thinkers out there.

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FredS
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Re: Love

Post by FredS » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:16 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:57 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:23 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 pm
I'd argue that a lot of my views are very "Stoic" compared to many of the individuals here. (I was somewhat interested in Stoicism).

But I've seen how easy in this culture it is to take advantage of women, or spend life on aimless or meaningless things and pursuits, not to mention all of the false and worldviews which are touted as ways to happiness in mass media - so I think that a stoic direction is a good direction to take things.
Why? What do you hope stoicism will do for you? Or us, or whoever you have a mind to turn that direction?

Where do you think that call to stoicism comes from? You seem keenly aware of 'culture' or 'mass culture' as you've named it elsewhere. In fact you seem to be repulsed by the culture around you (particularly it's hyper focus on sex) and you seem to want to separate yourself from it. I wonder if your desire for stoicism is a reaction to your grim assessment of the 'culture'.

(not being an ass, trying to understand what you mean)
The problem isn't "sex", but rather degenerate conceptions of it invented by consumerist societies. (My view is that sex has its roots in dance, even in the animal kingdom, and if society merely taught people how to dance gracefully, it would eliminate the void that the consumerist sex industry fills, as well as much of the superfluous advice on "dating" or dysfunctional relationships which sells on the mass market).

And not even "sex" in specific, but sex as a manifestation of hedonism or degenerate worldviews which tout ease, idleness, and materialism as a false way to happiness - I see these worldviews as fairly ubiquitous in mass culture, and believe that confronting them and replacing with views which encourage people to embrace and overcome hardship and challenges as a means of achieving happiness.

(I believe this is a sound Biblical concept as well, since the Bible was very strongly about individuals and cultures making progress through sacrifice and overcoming odds, while discouraging mindlessly pursuing idleness and impulse gratification).
Still, I ask, what is the end game?

Let's suppose we had a magic wand and we could turn off all degenerate sex or sexual desires tomorrow. Do you suppose everybody would be like "Whew, now that we're done with that mess, let's all turn towards God and behave ourselves."?

I say it'd be better to use the wand to open everyone's eyes to Jesus. If we all truly desired to live in a way pleasing to God, all the displeasing stuff we do will sluff away like yesterdays dead skin. That's why the commandment to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul comes way before the commandment to not stick it in anything that lies still. The other, secondary things flow from the primary thing.
Last edited by FredS on Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Love

Post by Goose55 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:22 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:56 pm
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
this
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Love

Post by gaining_age » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:24 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:04 pm
gaining_age wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:53 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:43 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 pm
Here's the deal NoaM - I think you have a disordered view of Christianity, of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Most everyone else here does not. There's a gap. I know at least in my case, I read and interpret something you've written and you, in turn say, "No, what I meant was this other thing." We're not connecting.

My suggestion for you would be to find a Christian in real life that you respect, ask them what church they attend, and attend it yourself. Go four times before giving up on it. You can't get to where you want to be by sequestering yourself and reading about it. You need to find a way to live it.

My path to Christ started as a heart thing. I was head over heels for Jesus. Then it was a head thing. I wanted to learn everything I could about Christ and His Church. Now I'm circling back to the heart thing because knowing about Jesus is less important than simply knowing Him. There's a quote by a fella named Rumi (a Muslim) that I like. He said "Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." I'm not suggesting you be like Forrest Gump, just be less certain that you have or can figure it all out in your head. Or any of it for that matter.

EDIT - I certainly can't judge the condition of your soul. I wouldn't attempt it if we were the best of friends in the real world. But I can draw conclusions from you write here. And it's messed up.
Well, it's difficult to say, but my view is the the a person or culture's first step is learning "not to be sinful", then once that is maintained as a habit, they have the liberty of focusing on doing good without having to actively worry about "not sinning".

If a person is trying to focus on the "good" but ignores the first step which is avoiding sin, then I don't believe it works properly or is sustainable due to the foundation being unsound.

(Likewise, if they only focuses on trying to "not be sinful" but not actively doing good, then I believe it potentially becomes ritualistic and miserly).

My view is that culture wants to embrace the "new" and messages of good things such as peace and love - but ignore the "old" or the sins which have to be overcome to make those things sustainable, and this is demonstrated by many rampant cultural ills in society and media today. So as a result, the message of "love" gets distorted and not fulfilled properly.
You may want to reread Romans 6-8 with a focus on Chapter 7.


Snippet from Paul's letter (ch7)
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
Thanks for that verse.

I'd argue that a lot of my views are very "Stoic" compared to many of the individuals here. (I was somewhat interested in Stoicism).

But I've seen how easy in this culture it is to take advantage of women, or spend life on aimless or meaningless things and pursuits, not to mention all of the false and worldviews which are touted as ways to happiness in mass media - so I think that a stoic direction is a good direction to take things.
If Paul had a problem with "avoiding the bad" and just "turning to the good" then stoicism will fail too. It's a reliance (and I'm preaching to myself as well) on Christ that makes the progress--- you came to Christianity by repenting and praying and seeking, so you grow in Christianity by repenting and praying and seeking (as paraphrased by a good sermon I had heard). Get the fundamentals down and keep on them and keep seeking to know God. It is this in the new testament that is stressed and emphasized and I believe is captured in the word "abide". Get ye into abiding, young man, and then see where your thoughts lie. For where your heart is will be where your treasures are.
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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Re: Love

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:36 pm

San Francisco.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Love

Post by gaining_age » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:44 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:36 pm
San Francisco.
Did you lose your harp?




Larry Lobster and Sam Clam where best friends. They did everything together. The only difference between them is that Larry was the nicest Lobster ever and Sam, well lets just say he was not so good.
Larry and Sam did so much together that they even died together.

Larry went to heaven and Sam went to hell.

Larry was doing well in heaven and one day St. Peter came up to him and said, "Larry, you know you are the nicest clam we ever had up here. Everyone likes you but you seem to be a bit depressed.

Tell me what is bothering you, maybe I can help."

Larry said, "Well, don't get me wrong Pete, I like it up here and everything, but I really miss my good friend Sam Clam. We used to do everything together and I really miss him a lot."

St. Peter looked at Larry with pity and said to him, "I tell you what, I can arrange it so that you can go down to hell tomorrow and visit Sam all day. How would that sound?"

This made Larry very happy and he got up bright and early the next morning and grabbed his wings, his harp, and his halo and got in the elevator to hell. When the doors opened he was met by Sam. The hugged each other and they were off. You see in Hell Sam owned a disco. The spent the day there together and had a great time. At the end of the day Larry and Sam went back to the elevator together said their goodbyes and Larry got back in the elevator and went up to heaven. He stepped off the elevator and was greeted by St. Peter who blocked the doorway to heaven. He looked at Larry and said, "Larry Lobster, didn't you forget something?"

Larry looked around and said, "No, I don't think so I have my halo and my wings."

St. Peter looked at him and said, "Yes, but what about your harp?" Larry gasped and said, "I Left My Harp in Sam Clam's Disco."
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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hugodrax
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Re: Love

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:54 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:44 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:36 pm
San Francisco.
Did you lose your harp?




Larry Lobster and Sam Clam where best friends. They did everything together. The only difference between them is that Larry was the nicest Lobster ever and Sam, well lets just say he was not so good.
Larry and Sam did so much together that they even died together.

Larry went to heaven and Sam went to hell.

Larry was doing well in heaven and one day St. Peter came up to him and said, "Larry, you know you are the nicest clam we ever had up here. Everyone likes you but you seem to be a bit depressed.

Tell me what is bothering you, maybe I can help."

Larry said, "Well, don't get me wrong Pete, I like it up here and everything, but I really miss my good friend Sam Clam. We used to do everything together and I really miss him a lot."

St. Peter looked at Larry with pity and said to him, "I tell you what, I can arrange it so that you can go down to hell tomorrow and visit Sam all day. How would that sound?"

This made Larry very happy and he got up bright and early the next morning and grabbed his wings, his harp, and his halo and got in the elevator to hell. When the doors opened he was met by Sam. The hugged each other and they were off. You see in Hell Sam owned a disco. The spent the day there together and had a great time. At the end of the day Larry and Sam went back to the elevator together said their goodbyes and Larry got back in the elevator and went up to heaven. He stepped off the elevator and was greeted by St. Peter who blocked the doorway to heaven. He looked at Larry and said, "Larry Lobster, didn't you forget something?"

Larry looked around and said, "No, I don't think so I have my halo and my wings."

St. Peter looked at him and said, "Yes, but what about your harp?" Larry gasped and said, "I Left My Harp in Sam Clam's Disco."
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I’m sorry, actually. I didn’t think I posted what I did. Please forgive me from taking away from a serious moment.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Love

Post by DepartedLight » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:38 am

Hello. First time in, full disclosure. Here we go.

I was wondering what others' idea of love is in the context of Christianity, or life in general. interesting

It's hard to define for me, but I associate the definition of "love" with "breath". The word "love" itself harkens a deep and satisfying breath, and my understanding is that the notion of "breath" is a fairly sacred concept existent in world religions in general. i've not heard this before

Whether one interprets breath as something orgasmic, or merely as a sigh of relief, is up to them. Regardless thank you for not typing, "irregardless." the notion of breath and love being interconnected, remains true to me. OK. This is kind of neato.

My feeling, though, is that mass culture as a whole has corrupted the true definition of "love" in the name of commercialism and consumerism, to be somethng merely marketable as a product, rather than something that goes beyond being bought and sold. Dude. Why? You were cruising the serious high ground. Why y7ou gotta bring it down? Let go your feelings. See things for what they are.

I'd be interested in hearing the other thinkers' still gonna tell ya definition of love - I've heard of CS Lewis' CS Lewis is overdone. Let the old boy rest in peace for FredS sake. attempts at defining 4 loves, but haven't as of yet read the book on it.
The idea of love in Christianity is experienced in Christ.

No greater love than dying for your friends.

Agape was a new Greek word to attempt to convey the concept of the love of Christ.

My best display of love is my actons for the good of others and all with no thought of self gain.

Now. This Breath and Love thing.

God breathed life into Adam. More pondering is required. Well done.
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Re: Love

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:43 am

When we discuss the term 'love', we must remember that "society," that is, the overarching norm of our culture, is a secular one and tends to have a shallow view on concepts like love, faith, hope, etc. Love is an emotion meant to convey happiness and wholeness. While that is not necessarily incorrect, the biblical concept is much deeper and far more complex. 1 Corinthians 13 is Paul's definition of love, which I suspect is from his own observation of how Christ interacted with his disciples and how his Father interacted with humanity. It is that type of love we are called to as disciples in all things, at least as far as I surmise.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

This includes marriages as well as friendships. Commitment is necessary if we are to make sense of love. I think of Maggie Gallagher's two distinctions of love: "You're mine because I love you" and "I love you because you are mine." Typically, our relationships have gone the way of the former and is, thus, based around emotional attachment or fixation. It is free from obligation. When the relationship becomes difficult or hard to maintain, we are free to walk away. The latter is different, and it is the type of love God has for his creation. "We are bound to each others, and therefore I love you. You may still bore me or wound me or otherwise become unattractive, but that doesn’t mean I’ll walk away. You’re not mine because I love you; I love you because you’re — already, and always — mine" (Wesley Hill). Dietrich Bonhoeffer puts it this way, "It is not your love that upholds marriage, but from now on it is marriage that upholds your love." I think the same applies to all expressions of love for others. God's kind of love, which is brought forth by his covenantal relationship with us, is first a commitment to another.

I suppose the point I'm making is that the biblical concept of 'love' is mightily different than the love put forth by the world, as I suspect it should be since we represent the author of love. I, also, think that the vast chasm between the biblical definition of love and society's has to do with the lens through which the world is viewed and lived. Individual fulfillment trumps nearly everything these days; love is, thus, only as good as far as it fulfills, and when it doesn't it is time to move on. Biblically, though, relationships are shaped through intimacy and love. The individually fulfilled, happy life is not always the abundant life, for the abundant life is a product of our relationship with God and with others. While individual fulfillment can be had from our relationships, with God and others, they are not to be used in a consumeristic fashion to bring about fulfillment (as far as it pleases us).

I'm wrestling with this more and more as I explore topics regarding sexuality and love, for the two are deeply linked, within the biblical context.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: Love

Post by tuttle » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 pm
CS Lewis is overdone. Let the old boy rest in peace for FredS sake.


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Re: Love

Post by DepartedLight » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:37 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 pm
CS Lewis is overdone. Let the old boy rest in peace for FredS sake.


Image
:lol: oh look. it's del's sock puppet :lol:
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Re: Love

Post by tuttle » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:21 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:37 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 pm
CS Lewis is overdone. Let the old boy rest in peace for FredS sake.


Image
:lol: oh look. it's del's sock puppet :lol:
:lol: No, that'd be if you slammed G.K. Chesterton
Christmas is Yule, dummies! We're doing the same thing, just better!

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Re: Love

Post by hugodrax » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:19 pm

tuttle wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:21 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:37 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:08 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 pm
CS Lewis is overdone. Let the old boy rest in peace for FredS sake.


Image
:lol: oh look. it's del's sock puppet :lol:
:lol: No, that'd be if you slammed G.K. Chesterton
I prefer Del and Anti-Del.
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Re: Love

Post by Fainn » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:58 pm

Hovannes wrote:"Love conquers all things except poverty and toothache."---Mae West
True words were never spoken.

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