Is it possible to harm the dead?

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Stanley76
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Stanley76 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:35 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:02 pm
what is this i dont even
Me neither
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:56 pm

coco wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:35 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:49 pm
...How does this fit with the admonition not to speak ill of the dead?
Are you saying that there is a biblical admonition not to speak ill of the dead?
It's a cultural, not Biblical admonition, De mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est from the Latin, but there are other admonitions from other times and cultures so there is quite a precedent.
In the Judeo-Christian tradition there is virtue of Charity, which could be seen as encompassing the sentiment, could it not?
But if it is Charity, how would the dead be able to grasp that Charity? I don't see how, so the one who extends that Charity would be the only one to benefit (maybe, the decedent's family may take comfort---one never knows!)
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:10 pm

Consider a curse. Calling down on damnation. A sin for sure, harming the one who curses but does it do harm to the one being cursed, if they are already dead? It could be taken as an information ex parte at the judgement time? (yeah, I'm screwing up the Latin legalese---sorry 'bout that :oops: )
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:29 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:10 pm
Consider a curse. Calling down on damnation. A sin for sure, harming the one who curses but does it do harm to the one being cursed, if they are already dead? It could be taken as an information ex parte at the judgement time? (yeah, I'm screwing up the Latin legalese---sorry 'bout that :oops: )
Do curses do any harm to the living cursee? A curse from whom? We need more clarification before anyone can possibly hope to answer.

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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by DepartedLight » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:05 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:56 pm
May I?

Jo touches on cremation v burial and the only reason it matters (I think) is if we'll need our current bodies when we're called home? This is spot on from my life experiences

Does cremation keep us from eternal life? My mom had a hard time with this exact point. The oddity that I knew that at age 10 is a subject for my therapist. However, her claim of her trepidation was that as a former Catholic she was taught cremation equates to no eternal life.

Will we stumble blindly through eternity if we donate our eyes upon our death? I am damn near blind. I take offense

To Hovs OP - No, it's not possible to harm the dead. Dead bodies can certainly be desecrated but that is a harm to the living. yep
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:31 am

I've been working on a short story where a supporting character has to reassure the protagonist that the dead will no longer be harmed through their own misfortune.
The concern being that of a reunited body & soul of a loved one climbing dangerously high up a tree
(in case you're curious.)
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:34 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:29 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:10 pm
Consider a curse. Calling down on damnation. A sin for sure, harming the one who curses but does it do harm to the one being cursed, if they are already dead? It could be taken as an information ex parte at the judgement time? (yeah, I'm screwing up the Latin legalese---sorry 'bout that :oops: )
Do curses do any harm to the living cursee? A curse from whom? We need more clarification before anyone can possibly hope to answer.
Calcutta, 1988. I got cursed big time by an Indian dude named Tony.
It was a bit disconcerting but no harm done to me.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by tuttle » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:26 am

FredS wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:56 pm
Jo touches on cremation v burial and the only reason it matters (I think) is if we'll need our current bodies when we're called home? Does cremation keep us from eternal life? Will we stumble blindly through eternity if we donate our eyes upon our death?
I view, and I think history has my back on this at least on a baseline level, how we handle the dead as a communication to the living. That is, what we do with our dead proclaims something. I've viewed burial (as opposed to cremation) as a proclamation of the resurrection.

But things change and people perceive things differently. Some folks look at cremation as purely a financially viable option without even a hint of a thought of what it used to or might now communicate. The stigma of cremation, especially its pagan roots, has largely worn off.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by tuttle » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:27 am

Hovannes wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:34 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:29 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:10 pm
Consider a curse. Calling down on damnation. A sin for sure, harming the one who curses but does it do harm to the one being cursed, if they are already dead? It could be taken as an information ex parte at the judgement time? (yeah, I'm screwing up the Latin legalese---sorry 'bout that :oops: )
Do curses do any harm to the living cursee? A curse from whom? We need more clarification before anyone can possibly hope to answer.
Calcutta, 1988. I got cursed big time by an Indian dude named Tony.
It was a bit disconcerting but no harm done to me.
[Tony's ghostly cackle]...yet[/Tony's ghostly cackle]
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Thunktank » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:31 pm

Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
After I croak, I want to be buried.

The wife tells me cremation is cheaper.

I think that the Orthodox say cremation is OK.

I still want to be buried.
The Orthodox don’t say that. They will not even give one a funeral if one is cremated. This is Byzantine cannon law. There are abnormal situations where exceptions are made and the principles of economia are applied. But no, if you want an Eastern Orthodox funeral, don’t plan on getting cremated.

Duelism was a popular heresy in the east, especially with the Gnostics. The Byzantine rite churches combatted them and the Roman/Greek pagans by rules against cremation. The body, if dead is to be respected and cared for in the hope of resurrection. This is in support of the mystery of the incarnation and salvation of the whole human. It does not suggest that a harmed body cannot be raised though.

Eastern Catholics allow it, but it’s discouraged for the Orthodox reasons mentioned above. Even then, when possible, the cremation should only happen after the funeral.
Last edited by Thunktank on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Goose55 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:29 pm

Heres a little ditty from Rev ch 20 about certain dead being harmed.....

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:16 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
After I croak, I want to be buried.

The wife tells me cremation is cheaper.

I think that the Orthodox say cremation is OK.

I still want to be buried.
The Orthodox don’t say that. They will not even give one a funeral if one is cremated. This is Byzantine cannon law. There are abnormal situations where exceptions are made and the principles of economia are applied. But no, if you want an Eastern Orthodox funeral, don’t plan on getting cremated.

Duelism was a popular heresy in the east, especially with the Gnostics. The Byzantine rite churches combatted them and the Roman/Greek pagans by rules against cremation. The body, if dead is to be respected and cared for in the hope of resurrection. This is in support of the mystery of the incarnation and salvation of the whole human. It does not suggest that a harmed body cannot be raised though.

Eastern Catholics allow it, but it’s discouraged for the Orthodox reasons mentioned above. Even then, when possible, the cremation should only happen after the funeral.
The problem with cremation is this:
They burn your eyeballs out of their sockets
I figure every morning when I open my eyes and they aren't shoveling dirt in my face, it's going to be a good day.
If I got no eyes, then I can't see if they're shoveling dirt in my face or not.
That can't be a good thing.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:03 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
After I croak, I want to be buried.

The wife tells me cremation is cheaper.

I think that the Orthodox say cremation is OK.

I still want to be buried.
The Orthodox don’t say that. They will not even give one a funeral if one is cremated. This is Byzantine cannon law. There are abnormal situations where exceptions are made and the principles of economia are applied. But no, if you want an Eastern Orthodox funeral, don’t plan on getting cremated.

Duelism was a popular heresy in the east, especially with the Gnostics. The Byzantine rite churches combatted them and the Roman/Greek pagans by rules against cremation. The body, if dead is to be respected and cared for in the hope of resurrection. This is in support of the mystery of the incarnation and salvation of the whole human. It does not suggest that a harmed body cannot be raised though.

Eastern Catholics allow it, but it’s discouraged for the Orthodox reasons mentioned above. Even then, when possible, the cremation should only happen after the funeral.
The problem with cremation is this:
They burn your eyeballs out of their sockets
I figure every morning when I open my eyes and they aren't shoveling dirt in my face, it's going to be a good day.
If I got no eyes, then I can't see if they're shoveling dirt in my face or not.
That can't be a good thing.
Reading that was like a form of assault. You should apologize.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:57 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:03 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
After I croak, I want to be buried.

The wife tells me cremation is cheaper.

I think that the Orthodox say cremation is OK.

I still want to be buried.
The Orthodox don’t say that. They will not even give one a funeral if one is cremated. This is Byzantine cannon law. There are abnormal situations where exceptions are made and the principles of economia are applied. But no, if you want an Eastern Orthodox funeral, don’t plan on getting cremated.

Duelism was a popular heresy in the east, especially with the Gnostics. The Byzantine rite churches combatted them and the Roman/Greek pagans by rules against cremation. The body, if dead is to be respected and cared for in the hope of resurrection. This is in support of the mystery of the incarnation and salvation of the whole human. It does not suggest that a harmed body cannot be raised though.

Eastern Catholics allow it, but it’s discouraged for the Orthodox reasons mentioned above. Even then, when possible, the cremation should only happen after the funeral.
The problem with cremation is this:
They burn your eyeballs out of their sockets
I figure every morning when I open my eyes and they aren't shoveling dirt in my face, it's going to be a good day.
If I got no eyes, then I can't see if they're shoveling dirt in my face or not.
That can't be a good thing.
Reading that was like a form of assault. You should apologize.
No offense intended, sir!
Just trying to make some sense out of the cremation industry.
When I was a student pilot I took passengers on one way flights.
It always struck me as a violent departure, especially for a gentleman I knew in life.
But flying is a drug.
I'd do anything to get my hands on the control horns
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:25 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:40 pm
After I croak, I want to be buried.

The wife tells me cremation is cheaper.

I think that the Orthodox say cremation is OK.

I still want to be buried.
The Orthodox don’t say that. They will not even give one a funeral if one is cremated. This is Byzantine cannon law. There are abnormal situations where exceptions are made and the principles of economia are applied. But no, if you want an Eastern Orthodox funeral, don’t plan on getting cremated.

Duelism was a popular heresy in the east, especially with the Gnostics. The Byzantine rite churches combatted them and the Roman/Greek pagans by rules against cremation. The body, if dead is to be respected and cared for in the hope of resurrection. This is in support of the mystery of the incarnation and salvation of the whole human. It does not suggest that a harmed body cannot be raised though.

Eastern Catholics allow it, but it’s discouraged for the Orthodox reasons mentioned above. Even then, when possible, the cremation should only happen after the funeral.
The problem with cremation is this:
They burn your eyeballs out of their sockets
I figure every morning when I open my eyes and they aren't shoveling dirt in my face, it's going to be a good day.
If I got no eyes, then I can't see if they're shoveling dirt in my face or not.
That can't be a good thing.
I've always said the same, you know.

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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:34 pm

I was joking. I need to stop doing that.

Burning eyeballs don’t offend me. The smell will stick with you for life, though.

Sorry, Hov.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by AFRS » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:11 pm

I hereby pronounce this thread 'silly'. :prayin:

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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:28 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:34 pm
I was joking. I need to stop doing that.

Burning eyeballs don’t offend me. The smell will stick with you for life, though.

Sorry, Hov.
Nah! Your dry humor is mightily appreciated.
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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:01 am

For those on the way to Valhalla:

Image
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

No complaining + gratefulness= happiness

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Re: Is it possible to harm the dead?

Post by Hovannes » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:02 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:01 am
For those on the way to Valhalla:

Image
From the culture that brought us Lutefisk.
"Praise be to Mary, her child and all those with them in Paradise."---Paulus Kal

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