Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
No, they're right up tuttle's alley. :D

And if Jesus Christ spoke to the Indians, why were they dancing around the fire worshipping the sun god when we got here? Huh? Huh? Where's your John Smith now, Mormon?
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by FredS » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by tuttle » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:01 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:54 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:30 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:58 am
FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:49 am
Shall we just cut to the chase and admit that Protestants (this one anyway) cringe at this level of Papal Authority?
That is really the heart of it. And a worthy objection, in my opinion.

If this were some new rule, I would also be appalled.

But the essence here is to prevent abuses. The Church has used grape wine and wheat flour since the time of the Apostles, for deeply biblical reasons.

All we are saying is that commercial "gluten-free" products are not assured of keeping biblical purity. Let's make sure that we stay with what we were given from the Apostles as we strive to accommodate those with modern allergy problems.

This letter offers guidance toward how we can do both -- preserve the integrity of the gospel sacraments and the health of believers. It is pastoral care when we need it, which is why Jesus gave us a Church.
To be honest, I brought this up, not because I'm cringing at Papal Authority, but because (aside from it being a relevant topic both in the news, and something our church does) I thought it was 1) oddly exclusionary and 2) confusing.

1) I find it odd that they'd nix gluten free, but still be cool with grape juice in special cases. Why is it cool to allow one man's exception to the norm and exclude the other? I guess it seems somewhat arbitrary once non-alcoholic juice and GMOs are involved. Which leads to:

2) I find it confusing that the argument being made for this is that the wheat must be pure. How is genetically modified wheat "pure"?

I guess there could be a third reason, and that is slightly theological. I'm trying to imagine what Paul would be thinking, especially in light of such sayings as, "So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together." I know there are good reasons for people to be excluded from the Supper, I just thought this was an odd reason for excluding certain people from partaking the bread.
And what conclusion have you already come to, my friend?
I am a protestant. Natural conclusions are built into that. More than forming a final conclusion based on good evidence/argument provided by Catholics or base on my own bias, I find these discussions to be worth the read simply because things like this touch upon a core of what we believe and it causes us to either become stronger in that belief by having it tested, or by having our minds renewed.

Of course there's always the risk of having our minds eroded...
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:19 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
That's a good question and one I don't have a definitive answer to or an authoratative answer to, so keep that in mind. I do know that the use of unleavened bread was controversial too. The Latin rite instituted it's use centuries after Christ ascended into heaven! A certain Byzantine patriarch even went to a Latin rite parish in his jurisdiction with armed troops to destroy the unleavened host! Some Orthodox took issue to the newer use of unleavened bread along with other changes the Latins made. Perhaps the point was missed, but it goes to show that this is important.

These questions I raised are pointless. It's like our kids asking us if we would rather be a dog or a cat. It simply doesn't matter, but it's fun to laugh about. We were born human. Likewise, the use of bread is found within the "culture" of the church. It was understood within the Jewish framework that was then continued into the Christian framework. Jesus is the "Bread of Life" not the "Rice of Life." Just the way it is. Who would suggest that we change the context of these things? The politically correct?
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:42 pm

tuttle wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:01 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:54 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:30 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:58 am
FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:49 am
Shall we just cut to the chase and admit that Protestants (this one anyway) cringe at this level of Papal Authority?
That is really the heart of it. And a worthy objection, in my opinion.

If this were some new rule, I would also be appalled.

But the essence here is to prevent abuses. The Church has used grape wine and wheat flour since the time of the Apostles, for deeply biblical reasons.

All we are saying is that commercial "gluten-free" products are not assured of keeping biblical purity. Let's make sure that we stay with what we were given from the Apostles as we strive to accommodate those with modern allergy problems.

This letter offers guidance toward how we can do both -- preserve the integrity of the gospel sacraments and the health of believers. It is pastoral care when we need it, which is why Jesus gave us a Church.
To be honest, I brought this up, not because I'm cringing at Papal Authority, but because (aside from it being a relevant topic both in the news, and something our church does) I thought it was 1) oddly exclusionary and 2) confusing.

1) I find it odd that they'd nix gluten free, but still be cool with grape juice in special cases. Why is it cool to allow one man's exception to the norm and exclude the other? I guess it seems somewhat arbitrary once non-alcoholic juice and GMOs are involved. Which leads to:

2) I find it confusing that the argument being made for this is that the wheat must be pure. How is genetically modified wheat "pure"?

I guess there could be a third reason, and that is slightly theological. I'm trying to imagine what Paul would be thinking, especially in light of such sayings as, "So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together." I know there are good reasons for people to be excluded from the Supper, I just thought this was an odd reason for excluding certain people from partaking the bread.
And what conclusion have you already come to, my friend?
I am a protestant. Natural conclusions are built into that. More than forming a final conclusion based on good evidence/argument provided by Catholics or base on my own bias, I find these discussions to be worth the read simply because things like this touch upon a core of what we believe and it causes us to either become stronger in that belief by having it tested, or by having our minds renewed.

Of course there's always the risk of having our minds eroded...
That's a pretty decent reply. It's not about the right or wrong but about the why. Ok. I like that and can accept it.

Frankly, I'm amazed this thread has gotten so much traction. To me, the Eucharist simply is, you know? And when the tiniest particle of Host or most infinitesimal drop of Blood contains the whole Body and Blood of Jesus, I guess I just don't see the problem the same way. If I was allergic to gluten to such an extent that a portion of a communion wafer was going to knock me out, I'd just go for the chalice. Wouldn't feel excluded. As it is, I don't take the chalice because I've already consumed, I don't need to go back for seconds, to put it crudely.

The better question (to me)is how you got so many celiacs in your congregation. I always thought it was Punjabs, Jews, Middle Easterners, and Meditarraneans, in that order, that were most likely to have the allergy. Maybe I'm behind the times, but I always figured there wouldn't be a high proportion of those ethnic types in an SBC church. Shows what I know, lol
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by infidel » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:47 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:42 pm
The better question (to me)is how you got so many celiacs in your congregation. I always thought it was Punjabs, Jews, Middle Easterners, and Meditarraneans, in that order, that were most likely to have the allergy. Maybe I'm behind the times, but I always figured there wouldn't be a high proportion of those ethnic types in an SBC church. Shows what I know, lol
https://www.celiac.com/articles/1164/1/ ... Page1.html
...

Up until ten years ago, medical schools taught that celiac disease was relatively rare and only affected about 1 in 2,500 people. It was also thought to be a disease that primarily affected children and young people. Recent studies and advances in diagnosis show that at least 3 million Americans, or about 1 in 133 people have celiac disease, but only 1-in-4,700 is ever diagnosed.

...

People with untreated celiac disease suffer intestinal damage when they eat products containing wheat, rye, or barley. The disease mostly affects people of European (especially Northern European) descent, but recent studies show that it also affects portions of the Hispanic, Black and Asian populations as well.

...
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:59 pm

infidel wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:47 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:42 pm
The better question (to me)is how you got so many celiacs in your congregation. I always thought it was Punjabs, Jews, Middle Easterners, and Meditarraneans, in that order, that were most likely to have the allergy. Maybe I'm behind the times, but I always figured there wouldn't be a high proportion of those ethnic types in an SBC church. Shows what I know, lol
https://www.celiac.com/articles/1164/1/ ... Page1.html
...

Up until ten years ago, medical schools taught that celiac disease was relatively rare and only affected about 1 in 2,500 people. It was also thought to be a disease that primarily affected children and young people. Recent studies and advances in diagnosis show that at least 3 million Americans, or about 1 in 133 people have celiac disease, but only 1-in-4,700 is ever diagnosed.

...

People with untreated celiac disease suffer intestinal damage when they eat products containing wheat, rye, or barley. The disease mostly affects people of European (especially Northern European) descent, but recent studies show that it also affects portions of the Hispanic, Black and Asian populations as well.

...
This message brought to you by the Council for a Gluten Free America. I have no doubt it's more prevalent than I thought, but im calling hooey on 1 in 133 unless we've changed the definition. We should have been able to fight off the Norsemen with ease if they were so busy keeling over from all the bread and wheat they plundered.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Del » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:00 pm

infidel wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:29 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:59 am
infidel wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:54 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:36 am
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:26 am
So we shut down purgatory, talk far less about politics and now return to Protestant vs Catholic again. Full circle.

Mary save us!
That happens every five minutes. It's practically required. This one was over before anyone went nuts.
No one would have gone nuts if Jesus would have used gluten free bread.
Or if the bread actually changed into something other than bread *mic drop*

:D :box:
Yeah.... Like He did at Cana. Or when He multiplied the loaves and fed the 5000.

This notion that He changes bread into His living flesh and then multiplies this throughout the world is just too hard to hear.... It still looks like bread that we bought from the Sisters at the monastery. Does He think we are stupid? Does He think He is God or something? Jeez!....
Except neither of those miracles are really analogous ;)
Those are powerfully analogous.

Moses turned water into blood.
Jesus turned water into wine, and then turns wine into His Blood.

God provided manna to feed the multitude in the desert.
Jesus also provided bread to feed the multitude. Jesus mentioned the manna, but He also promised to that same crowd that He would give them all Living Bread that gives eternal life. He said that this living bread would be His Flesh.

For those of us who live the Eucharist, we see the Wedding at Cana and the Multiplication of Loaves as miracles which promise the Eucharist.

We see the Eucharist everywhere. Even the Lord's Prayer: "Give us this day our daily bread" is a Eucharistic prayer.

Even Christ's death on the Cross -- was not primarily to "pay for our sins." The primary purpose of the Cross, immediately following the Last Supper, was to be the Lamb of God, the sacrifice for the New Passover of the New Covenant. He died to give us His Flesh.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Del » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:10 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
Catholics turn to the practice of the Apostles.

Jesus and the Apostles busted a great number of local customs, both Jewish and Greek. On the other hand, they held certain other practices to be vitally important. "The Pope" does not make these things up. The purpose of a Successor of Peter is to protect and share what has been handed down to us, adding nothing and taking nothing away.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Del » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:17 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
We can suppose that if Christ had visited the Chinese or the Native Americans, they would have been prepared for this by some experience of slavery and rescue, and Exodus, a Passover, prophets with the promise of a greater savior to come, etc.

When we visit Catholic churches around the world, we find that they are filled and colored with the indigenous culture. But there are still the carefully guarded things which are universal. The local Christians have the same Bible, the Eucharist, the saints. They are glad to have these, participating in our universal heritage as Christians.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Del » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:23 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:19 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
That's a good question and one I don't have a definitive answer to or an authoratative answer to, so keep that in mind. I do know that the use of unleavened bread was controversial too. The Latin rite instituted it's use centuries after Christ ascended into heaven! A certain Byzantine patriarch even went to a Latin rite parish in his jurisdiction with armed troops to destroy the unleavened host! Some Orthodox took issue to the newer use of unleavened bread along with other changes the Latins made. Perhaps the point was missed, but it goes to show that this is important.

These questions I raised are pointless. It's like our kids asking us if we would rather be a dog or a cat. It simply doesn't matter, but it's fun to laugh about. We were born human. Likewise, the use of bread is found within the "culture" of the church. It was understood within the Jewish framework that was then continued into the Christian framework. Jesus is the "Bread of Life" not the "Rice of Life." Just the way it is. Who would suggest that we change the context of these things? The politically correct?
The violent disputes over leavened or unleavened bread were unfortunate and wrong-headed.

The Apostles in the West taught us to use unleavened bread, for very important reasons. They were guided by the Holy Spirit to do so.

The Apostles in the East taught us to use leavened bread, also for very important reasons. They were also guided by the Holy Spirit.

Our job is not to fight or impose one practice over the other. We should accept this odd-seeming paradox of disciplines, understand both sides, and wonder at the insights that the Holy Spirit has provided through both. We should "breath with both lungs," as Pope St. John Paul II prayed us to do.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Onyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:31 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:37 am
Wow! I really didn't think this would be such a big deal!
Are you new here? :lol:

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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:36 pm

Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:31 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:37 am
Wow! I really didn't think this would be such a big deal!
Are you new here? :lol:
Onyx is surprised he didn't start it. :D
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Onyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:39 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:36 pm
Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:31 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:37 am
Wow! I really didn't think this would be such a big deal!
Are you new here? :lol:
Onyx is surprised he didn't start it. :D
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by FredS » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:41 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:17 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
We can suppose that if Christ had visited the Chinese or the Native Americans, they would have been prepared for this by some experience of slavery and rescue, and Exodus, a Passover, prophets with the promise of a greater savior to come, etc.

When we visit Catholic churches around the world, we find that they are filled and colored with the indigenous culture. But there are still the carefully guarded things which are universal. The local Christians have the same Bible, the Eucharist, the saints. They are glad to have these, participating in our universal heritage as Christians.
Yeah, I regretted that post after I posted it. Of course Christ was incarnate precisely when and where He was in order to fulfill the prophecies. All of history was pointing towards that time when He'd become flesh, when He'd be killed, and when He'd be resurrected, so it was not simply chance that He was dining with the folks He was with.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Thunktank » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:43 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:23 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:19 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 pm
If Jesus was Chinese, would he have instituted a bowl of rice instead of bread? Or what if he visited the native Americans? Would he have used Maize? Or are these youth room questions? :clown:
In the larger context, these are absolutely valid questions. Was Christ making a definitive statement that unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water was the only acceptable meal then and forever, or was He following the custom of those He was dinning with in the upper room? It's always worthwhile to consider cultural norms and ancient traditions when one studies Scripture. I figure our Catholic friends will say that's why they turn to the Church (and the Pope) when such questions arise. Man does not live by the Bible alone.
That's a good question and one I don't have a definitive answer to or an authoratative answer to, so keep that in mind. I do know that the use of unleavened bread was controversial too. The Latin rite instituted it's use centuries after Christ ascended into heaven! A certain Byzantine patriarch even went to a Latin rite parish in his jurisdiction with armed troops to destroy the unleavened host! Some Orthodox took issue to the newer use of unleavened bread along with other changes the Latins made. Perhaps the point was missed, but it goes to show that this is important.

These questions I raised are pointless. It's like our kids asking us if we would rather be a dog or a cat. It simply doesn't matter, but it's fun to laugh about. We were born human. Likewise, the use of bread is found within the "culture" of the church. It was understood within the Jewish framework that was then continued into the Christian framework. Jesus is the "Bread of Life" not the "Rice of Life." Just the way it is. Who would suggest that we change the context of these things? The politically correct?
The violent disputes over leavened or unleavened bread were unfortunate and wrong-headed.
It was. The east saw unleavened bread as "lifeless" hence, they used leavening because it rose as Christ did.
The Apostles in the West taught us to use unleavened bread, for very important reasons. They were guided by the Holy Spirit to do so.

The Apostles in the East taught us to use leavened bread, also for very important reasons. They were also guided by the Holy Spirit.
The Apostles were taught together. Unleavened bread was probably used at the last Supper according to Jewish tradition. There has been cited evidence that suggests that unleavened bread was most commonly used in the west until halfway through the first millennium, when unleavened bread became more common in order to more closely associate the Eucharist with the Passover.
Our job is not to fight or impose one practice over the other. We should accept this odd-seeming paradox of disciplines, understand both sides, and wonder at the insights that the Holy Spirit has provided through both. We should "breath with both lungs," as Pope St. John Paul II prayed us to do.
Agreed.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by Del » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:44 pm

Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:39 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:36 pm
Onyx wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:31 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:37 am
Wow! I really didn't think this would be such a big deal!
Are you new here? :lol:
Onyx is surprised he didn't start it. :D
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Or a scissors.
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by gaining_age » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:00 pm

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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by durangopipe » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:34 pm

Okay. Somebody has to say it!

Three pages in and nobody has questioned Papal authority on grounds that no Pope, since its evil invention, has condemned and forbidden the use of Manischewitz or Mogen David so-called "wine" for use in Holy Communion!

Gluten, schmuten. This is where true evil resides.
I will not enter into discussion or argument on this matter. Some things are self-evident. Settled. Finito.

I almost died once having been served it and not knowing what it was.
Those of us who survive are never the same again.

And no, I do not ask for your pity.
Your deepest respect for my will to survive is enough.

How do they drink that stuff?
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Re: Vatican rules no gluten free bread in Eucharist

Post by hugodrax » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:37 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:34 pm
Okay. Somebody has to say it!

Three pages in and nobody has questioned Papal authority on grounds that no Pope, since its evil invention, has condemned and forbidden the use of Manischewitz or Mogen David so-called "wine" for use in Holy Communion!

Gluten, schmuten. This is where true evil resides.
I will not enter into discussion or argument on this matter. Some things are self-evident. Settled. Finito.

I almost died once having been served it and not knowing what it was.
Those of us who survive are never the same again.

And no, I do not ask for your pity.
Your deepest respect for my will to survive is enough.

How do they drink that stuff?
It's really cheap.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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