I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:25 am

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:35 am

Saw that this morning and got banned from the Daily Mail's comment boards. I said the Anglican Pope was a real queen. Apparently, the fact that she is, in fact, a queen may offend homosexuals, all of whom are well known to read the Daily Mail.

When I read the title, I was trying to figure out how the heck a celebrant could use his mobile during Mass. I wasn't thinking of them as part of the congregation.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:05 am

+JMJ+

Analysis: The Pope’s dramatic – and confusing – move on Communion
Image
Pope Francis meets Bangladesh's bishops last week (CNS)

The Pope has given official approval to a document by the Buenos Aires bishops. That won't necessarily change what Catholics believe

In 1870, many Catholics, from cardinals to laypeople, had real concerns about the doctrine of papal infallibility. Then the First Vatican Council proclaimed the doctrine – with some important limits and qualifications – and that was pretty much that. Apart from an eccentric schism starting in Germany, and the odd priest here and there, pretty much everyone said, “Well, the Church has taught it so I’ll go along with it.”

That is presumably what Pope Francis is hoping for with his latest act in the saga of Communion for the remarried. This debate, which has dominated Francis’s pontificate, is becoming harder to explain than the geopolitics of the Middle East, but on Friday the Pope attempted to clarify it. He has added an “apostolic letter” to the Acta Apostolicae Sedis – the record of the papacy’s official acts. The letter was sent to the Bishops of Buenos Aires last year, approving their interpretation of Amoris Laetitia. The bishops appear to say (this is disputed, as we’ll see) that Amoris Laetitia favours Communion for the remarried in some circumstances, even if the new relationship is sexually active. The Pope has now approved this reading, not just in private but in his role as Supreme Pontiff.

So will this new act do a Vatican I? Will everyone now accept that Communion for the remarried can be OK? It seems highly unlikely, for several reasons. …
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:36 am

+JMJ+

Cardinal Kasper: The controversy surrounding ‘Amoris Laetitia’ has come to an end
Image
Cardinal Walter Kasper.(Credit: Bohumil Petrik/CNA.)

MUNICH, Germany - The controversy regarding Amoris Laetitia has come to an end, according to German cardinal Walter Kasper. What is more, he has affirmed that the admission of remarried divorced persons to the sacraments in individual cases is, in his view, the only correct interpretation of the post-synodal apostolic exhortation.

[…]

The admission of remarried divorced persons to the sacraments in individual cases, as the papal letter dated September 5, 2016 to the bishops of the Buenos Aires region of Argentina agrees with, according to Kasper, has its basis in traditional doctrine, “especially that of Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent.”

Therefore, the German cardinal continued, this interpretation “is not a novelty, but a renewal of an old tradition against neo-scholastic constrictions. As proven experts of the doctrine of Pope John Paul II have shown, there is no contradiction with the two predecessors of Pope Francis.”

Kasper accused the “critics of Amoris Laetitia” of falling prey to “one-sided moral objectivism” that underestimates “the importance of the personal conscience in the moral act.”

To be sure, conscience must pay attention to the objective commandments of God, Kasper continued. “But universally valid objective commandments (…) cannot be applied mechanically or by purely logical deduction to concrete, often complex and perplexing, situations.”

Whilst not specifically answering the questions of the dubia submitted by four cardinals to Francis about the teaching in Amoris Laetitia, Kasper emphasized that in his view, it was necessary to ask “which application of the commandment is the right one, given a specific situation.”

Kasper further argued that this “has nothing to do with situational ethics that knows no universal commandments, it is not about exceptions to the commandment, but about the … cardinal virtue of prudence.”

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Goose55 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:51 am

I don't personally know the man, so it's hard to say whether I like him, or not.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:31 am

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:51 am
I don't personally know the man, so it's hard to say whether I like him, or not.
You know, I was going to make fun of this response, but I can't. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Goose.

He's done some things I really like (returning to his hotel, picking up his own suitcase, paying his own tab--all immediately after his election to the Papacy) and some things I don't understand (Amoris, banishing Card. Burke to outer darkness), but until I meet the man, which is perishingly unlikely, I can't fairly come down for or against him.

I'm leaning towards "like", though. There's a lot of mercy in the man.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:55 am

+JMJ+

The Pope’s Endorsement of Argentina’s Amoris Guidelines: What It Means
Image
Pope Francis at the general audience in St. Peter's Square Nov. 8. (Daniel Ibáñez/CNA)

Senior Vatican canonist Bishop Juan Ignacio Arrieta unequivocally endorses the move, but Cardinal Gerhard Müller has some reservations.

[…]

The Vatican made clear in Acta Apostolicae Sedis that this private papal letter congratulating the bishops on their guidelines would be raised to the magisterial status of an apostolic letter (less magisterial than an encyclical but more than an apostolic exhortation). It also included a special rescript — an official papal decision on doctrine — written June 5 by Cardinal Pietro Parolin, the Vatican secretary of state, which declares that Pope Francis expressly intends that both his letter and the Buenos Aires guidelines are “authentic magisterium.”

[…]

The Buenos Aires Guidelines

The Buenos Aires bishops stressed in their guidelines that the issue with respect to access to Holy Communion for divorced-and-civilly-remarried Catholics is not about “permission” to the sacraments, but rather a “discernment process” and conversion through “pastoral accompaniment.” They stated that this path does “not necessarily end” with access to the sacraments, but may lead to other ways divorced-and-civilly-remarried Catholics can be better integrated in the life of the Church.

They added that “whenever feasible and depending on the specific circumstance,” a priest may suggest such couples “live in continence” without marital relations — something previous magisterial teaching has always mandated. They further added that, in view of the “difficulties” arising from this option, the sacrament of reconciliation is available if “partners fail in this purpose” (they cited Pope St. John Paul II’s 1996 letter to Cardinal William Baum as an example).

Then, in a crucial paragraph, the bishops stated that in “more complex cases” the option of living in continence “may not, in fact, be feasible,” but a path of discernment is “still possible.” They added: “If it comes to be recognized that, in a specific case, there are limitations that mitigate responsibility and culpability [as per Amoris Laetitia, 301-302], especially when a person believes they would incur a subsequent wrong by harming the children of the new U***n, Amoris Laetitia offers the possibility of access to the sacraments of reconciliation and Eucharist (cf. Amoris Laetitia, Footnotes 336 and 351). These sacraments, in turn, dispose the person to continue maturing and growing with the power of grace.”

The Buenos Aires bishops stressed this did not grant “unlimited access” to the sacraments, but that proper discernment applies to “each case” and that “it is always important to guide people to stand before God with their conscience.” Access to the sacraments when there are “unresolved injustices” in a relationship is “particularly scandalous,” the bishops wrote.

The bishops said access to the sacraments may be required “privately” to avoid giving “confusion” about the indissolubility of marriage. They added that discernment is “not closed” but “dynamic” and must remain open to “new stages of growth and to new decisions,” according to the “law of gradualness” and with confidence “in the help of grace.”

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re:

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:46 pm

AFRS wrote:
Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:58 pm
St. AFRS: Hell awaits everyone unless they change their ways.
Hey, I agree with AFRS!



I need to lie down.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:12 am

+JMJ+

Regarding a forthcoming book which seems unfortunately poised to be quite popular in the "dusty" (:wink:) corners of some Catholic circles, level-headed apologist Dave Armstrong provides a full, preemptive review and defusion of the facts of the case as presented by the author.
This is one of a series of my reviews of the book by prominent Catholic journalist, editor, and author Philip Lawler, entitled Lost Shepherd: How Pope Francis is Misleading His Flock (due to be released on 26 February 2018). Phil was kind enough to send me a review copy, and he and others have encouraged me to read the book and review it. Their wish is granted!

[…]

Image


Lawler vs. Pope Francis
  1. Critique of Introduction
  2. Homosexuality & “Judging”
  3. The Pope Annihilated Hell?
  4. Communion / Buenos Aires Letter
  5. Jerusalem Council vs. “Ideology”


From the Introduction …
[…]

In my brief direct dialogue with Phil Lawler (recorded in one of my posts), I warned him of the grave consequences of his being wrong on this matter. I am (thus far) very concerned about him, as well as his readers:
[Y]our book will sell like hotcakes. I’m happy to see any author sell well (believe me), but I tremble for you, if in fact you are wrong about what you are saying. If you are, you will be responsible for leading many thousands astray, and that is a heavy burden indeed. [see James 3:1-12]

I wrote recently, that I’d much rather be wrong (if I am) defending the pope, than to be wrong criticizing him wrongly and leading multiple thousands of people down the same path. I’m sure you’ve agonized about it, because you have taken a long arduous path to your present position. I’m urging — begging — you, to ponder it even more.
[…]
Lawler in the Introduction cites one thing in particular: Pope Francis’ homily from 24 February 2017 as, in effect, the final straw. It caused a sea change in his view of Pope Francis. He reports that “Something snapped inside me” after reading what he construes as the Holy Father’s capitalizing on “one more opportunity to promote his own view on divorce and remarriage.” He concluded:
[Ⅰ]n this case, the pope turned the Gospel reading completely upside-down. Reading the Vatican Radio account of that astonishing homily, I found I could no longer pretend that Francis was merely offering a novel interpretation of Catholic doctrine. No, it was more than that. He was engaged in a deliberate effort to change what the Church teaches.
No one had to wait for this book to come out, to realize the extent of Lawler’s horror over this homily. He freely wrote about it in his Catholic Culture article of 1 March 2017: “This Disastrous Papacy”. Most of it was included in the Introduction, either unchanged or only slightly modified.

Very well, then. Since we know this was the single identifiable thing that decisively changed his mind about Pope Francis, let’s take a look at it and see whether it really is as radical and anti-traditional as he claims it to be; whether it truly suggests or requires such a remarkable and earth-shaking conclusion as what Lawler has drawn from it. I’ve already linked to it above, so readers can read all of it: from the same source that Lawler got it from. What was Pope Francis trying to say, and teach?

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Kerdy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm

When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
I want a constitutional amendment formally recognizing Wisconsin as Derpistan.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
I want a constitutional amendment formally recognizing Wisconsin as Derpistan.
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I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wsblevins » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Not being catholic, I really don’t have an opinion of the Pope one way or the other. To me, he’s just another dude with a funny hat. Kinda like the Flintstones Buffalo Club.


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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:00 pm

wsblevins wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Not being catholic, I really don’t have an opinion of the Pope one way or the other. To me, he’s just another dude with a funny hat. Kinda like the Flintstones Buffalo Club.


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Or you.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Skip » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:44 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:00 pm
wsblevins wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Not being catholic, I really don’t have an opinion of the Pope one way or the other. To me, he’s just another dude with a funny hat. Kinda like the Flintstones Buffalo Club.


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Or you.
Right. It's the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo Lodge No. 26. If you're going to try to be funny, at least get your references correct.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:44 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
I want a constitutional amendment formally recognizing Wisconsin as Derpistan.
Image
I'm just saying that there is a lot of fake news out there.

Plenty of people claiming that Pope Francis is teaching heresy.
Plenty of people teaching heresy and claiming that Pope Francis agrees with them.

Tell me if I am wrong.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:44 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
I want a constitutional amendment formally recognizing Wisconsin as Derpistan.
Image
I'm just saying that there is a lot of fake news out there.

Plenty of people claiming that Pope Francis is teaching heresy.
Plenty of people teaching heresy and claiming that Pope Francis agrees with them.

Tell me if I am wrong.
You misunderstood Wosbald. My reading was that, when faced with Dels destroying your crops, sprinkle some salt on them and they'll go away. The shaker is large because Del's are not exactly manlets.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:24 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:44 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
I want a constitutional amendment formally recognizing Wisconsin as Derpistan.
Image
I'm just saying that there is a lot of fake news out there.

Plenty of people claiming that Pope Francis is teaching heresy.
Plenty of people teaching heresy and claiming that Pope Francis agrees with them.

Tell me if I am wrong.
You misunderstood Wosbald. My reading was that, when faced with Dels destroying your crops, sprinkle some salt on them and they'll go away. The shaker is large because Del's are not exactly manlets.
Why do you think that I did not understand Wosbald's post?

I was simply ignoring it. Off-topic, it was.

Not meaning to be rude or anything, but I ignored your post too.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:37 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:24 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:44 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:51 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Kerdy wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:46 pm
When the Pope teaches heresy, let me know. Until then, he is the Pope and that's pretty much the end of it all. I liked Pope Emeritus Benedict more, but he is no longer the Pope. I don't have to like everything about Pope Francis or all of his opinions, but as long as he is doing his job the way it is supposed to be done and isn't teaching heresy, I have no real complaints.
I know what you mean. Pope Francis is like Vatican II -- people abuse what he says. Others rightly hate the abusers, but then blame the Pope or the Council for the abuses.

Pope Francis is a lot like President Trump.... He speaks his mind, seemingly shoots from the hip. Sane people would take these words with a grain of salt, and not worry about it. But extremists in the media and on the internet pull out bits of speech, distort and magnify it, and turn our pastors and secular leaders into parodies of reality.

My advice is to ignore to all the noise. Don't pay attention to the chattering classes.
I want a constitutional amendment formally recognizing Wisconsin as Derpistan.
Image
I'm just saying that there is a lot of fake news out there.

Plenty of people claiming that Pope Francis is teaching heresy.
Plenty of people teaching heresy and claiming that Pope Francis agrees with them.

Tell me if I am wrong.
You misunderstood Wosbald. My reading was that, when faced with Dels destroying your crops, sprinkle some salt on them and they'll go away. The shaker is large because Del's are not exactly manlets.
Why do you think that I did not understand Wosbald's post?

I was simply ignoring it. Off-topic, it was.

Not meaning to be rude or anything, but I ignored your post too.
Salt him good, Wos.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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