The Fly Tying Thread

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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:11 pm

Proportions are getting closer. More feather wing streamers today:

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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:12 pm

Really need to track down some lead wire to weight these a bit. What else do you all use for weight when you don’t want a bead?
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by FredS » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:57 pm

Gabriel wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:12 pm
Really need to track down some lead wire to weight these a bit. What else do you all use for weight when you don’t want a bead?
Drink much champagne or expensive wine? The metal 'foil' you often find wrapped around the neck to seal the cork is sometimes a sort of heavy metal. You could cut it in strips and wrap it 'round the hook shank. Of course there is no adhesive on it, so you'll need to use super glue. Flat lead is great for building carrot or cigar shaped bodies for nymphs.

That said, I always have a few spools of purpose made 'lead' in .015" and .025" diameters that I use. It's relatively cheap (says the guy with more money than spare time these days) and it's easy to use.

EDIT: Oh, and that's a right nice fly there Gabriel. Is that squirrel for the underwing?
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:07 pm

Drink much champagne or expensive wine?
I’m sure you know the answer to that. :D

We did have some for Christmas though, that’s a great idea, I’ll see if we still have some.

I have some cheap lead wire in my j Stockard basket, just waiting for the right moment to make another stock order.

I was pretty happy with that fly, yes, red fox squirrel tail for the underwing. Ginger hackle for the over, holographic tinsel on the hook shank. #6 streamer hook.

I tried to use some of Wayne’s guinea feathers for eyes on an earlier version, but without success.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:10 pm

FredS wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:57 pm
Gabriel wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:12 pm
Really need to track down some lead wire to weight these a bit. What else do you all use for weight when you don’t want a bead?
Drink much champagne or expensive wine? The metal 'foil' you often find wrapped around the neck to seal the cork is sometimes a sort of heavy metal. You could cut it in strips and wrap it 'round the hook shank. Of course there is no adhesive on it, so you'll need to use super glue. Flat lead is great for building carrot or cigar shaped bodies for nymphs.

That said, I always have a few spools of purpose made 'lead' in .015" and .025" diameters that I use. It's relatively cheap (says the guy with more money than spare time these days) and it's easy to use.

EDIT: Oh, and that's a right nice fly there Gabriel. Is that squirrel for the underwing?

All of the above . . .

I didn’t comment on your first feather wing streamer because over the past two years I’ve seen you work out a lot of the kinks on your own.

You’ve done it, again. Gorgeous fly!

Regarding weight: if you’ve got an old-timey hardware store or electrical supply place nearby, you can usually find spools of lead fuse wire pretty cheap. But the lead wire from places like Cabelas isn’t too expensive.

If I use lead wire, I usually over-wrap the lead with thread and coat it with head cement. Sometimes it will discolor floss or other materials after fishing if you don’t. If you use white thread under the floss, the floss will be more “shiny.”

In all honesty, I did get to a place where other than various beads and cones I no longer used weighted flies, preferring to use split shot above the tippet knot. It gives you more options regarding weight, and I always lost track of how much lead was in the fly after it was in the box for a while. But the rig is a little harder to cast.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by FredS » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:24 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:10 pm
. . .In all honesty, I did get to a place where other than various beads and cones I no longer used weighted flies, preferring to use split shot above the tippet knot. It gives you more options regarding weight, and I always lost track of how much lead was in the fly after it was in the box for a while. But the rig is a little harder to cast.
I'm quickly approaching the same point. When I first started the hobby, I used red thread for weighted flies. I stopped doing that and now I tie most with a bead or with no weight at all. Except GRHE's. I love that pattern and it's variants so I like to carry unweighted, weighted, and bead headed versions. For those I still use red thread to finish the weighted ones.

Of course for warm water flies, you always have the option of bead chains and lead barbells to get flies of various weights.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:27 pm

The experimentation continues...

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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:21 pm

Gabriel wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:27 pm
The experimentation continues...

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“You can take the boy out of guiding, but you can’t take the guiding out of the boy . . .”

Guides tend to be very practical regarding flies, Gabe. Take my comments for what they're worth with that in mind.
First, your ties are beautiful. Nicely tied. Love the cheeks! You’ve got the chops, so this is very picky stuff.

1) Trout are notorious for short takes on streamers. Some other species, not so much. For trout streamers, I always tried to keep the materials from extending too far beyond the bend of the hook. I would guess this fly would bring lots of strikes, but you’ll often “miss” the fish on the strike and wonder why. I think the overly long wing will be responsible.

2) The peacock herl topping is beautiful and often used on traditional salmon flies. But it is really fragile. I fear it won’t hold up too well. Pretty quickly, you’ll have one shorter than the other, and not too long after that they’ll both be short. It may go against the natural materials aesthetic, but Flashabou is my preferred material for streamer wing toppings.

Your streamer is very well tied. My comments relate to some personal preferences.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:53 pm

FredS wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:55 pm
I tie a lot of Clouser Minnow type flies for crappie, bass and other sunfish. Really, any fish that eats other fish will eat a Clouser Minnow. Walmart has cheap "All Purpose"hooks in packs of 20 for a buck or two. Size 6 & 8 are good choices. If I'm fishing in fast or deep water I use lead eyes made for flies, but most of the time I use "bead-chain" eyes because they're so cheap. You can buy a lifetime supply (in silver and gold) at Home Depot in the lighting department by the ceiling fan repair parts. Or pick up a hand full of free key chains from the National Guard at next years fair. I salvage copper wire from every piece of electronic equipment that dies around my house. I broke up some old electric toothbrushes and found really nice spools of fine wire. Stripping different gauges of stranded wire also works. Fly tying wire doesn't cost that much but I feel good scrounging materials. One of my dogs is a sheader and I use and old coffee grinder to turn her hair in to dubbing. Dryer lint can be used in a pinch too.

[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i477bZ6Ours[/BBvideo]

A few more places to waste time:
Learn Fly Tying with David Cammiss - He's an old school Brit gentleman and he starts with very basic steps.

Davie McPhail - Worlds second best (behind Hank) fly tyer. His accent (Scottish I think) is a bit hard for Yanks to understand, but his videos are top notch.

Trout & Feather - tying videos
Funny how things come around sometimes. I've been looking into tying some more complex flies this winter, just for the fun of it, and I eventually stumbled upon this Scottish fellow that ties some great flies. Just for kicks I pull up the first page of this thread tonight and way back on page one FredS had already recommended him...
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:14 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:21 pm

“You can take the boy out of guiding, but you can’t take the guiding out of the boy . . .”

Guides tend to be very practical regarding flies, Gabe. Take my comments for what they're worth with that in mind.
First, your ties are beautiful. Nicely tied. Love the cheeks! You’ve got the chops, so this is very picky stuff.

1) Trout are notorious for short takes on streamers. Some other species, not so much. For trout streamers, I always tried to keep the materials from extending too far beyond the bend of the hook. I would guess this fly would bring lots of strikes, but you’ll often “miss” the fish on the strike and wonder why. I think the overly long wing will be responsible.

2) The peacock herl topping is beautiful and often used on traditional salmon flies. But it is really fragile. I fear it won’t hold up too well. Pretty quickly, you’ll have one shorter than the other, and not too long after that they’ll both be short. It may go against the natural materials aesthetic, but Flashabou is my preferred material for streamer wing toppings.

Your streamer is very well tied. My comments relate to some personal preferences.
Ah, Steve. You're always so cautious in your comments. It does make me smile a bit, but you have no need to justify any constructive criticism you might hand out! If I was that thin skinned I wouldn't post most of the pics I do.

Thank you for your observations. I really don't see this as being a well tied or attractive fly at all. It came about as a result of me watching a couple Dave McPhail videos, looking at spey/salmon flies on instagram, and then sitting down at my desk and making something up out of what I had. I'm primarily trying things out to see how hard it is to tie cheeks, eyes, multiple level wings, etc. I enjoy it tremendously and am looking forward to doing some flies of the type, though I really have not much practical use for them.

Regarding the "short strike" issue and the length. I hear you, and yes, this is a long creation, the proportions are a bit off. So I have to agree with you on that. Consider, however, that most bass strikes are at the head of their prey, if not consuming the whole bit. It's not at all uncommon when gear fishing to rig a worm or fluke or mythical shape with the hook up at the head of a 6" rig. So, yes, I considered that it was too long, but I don't that will be a major detriment when bass fishing. Not sure this will see the water anyway...

It's interesting that you mention the peacock herl. So many traditional flies have it, and it is beautiful, but why use such a fragile material? I use it for nymph bodies and such, but I never would have considered trailing it on a streamer until I saw so many pics of it being used just so. Any insight on the practice? I'd be interested to hear it.

This reply has been directed to Steve, but for everyone - cheeks and eyes? What are your favorite materials? The cheeks on the experiment above (the first I've ever tried) are neck feathers from a ringneck pheasant I shot last fall. I've been looking at some of the other pheasant feathers, the mallard flanks, and I have some guinea fowl of various sizes. What do you all like to use, or do you bother?
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:40 pm

Well explained, Gabriel.

As a bass fly, it will likely be great! Similarly, fresh sea-run salmon and steelhead takes are very different from trout takes. They are sometimes explosive, but far more often almost hypnotic, as if eating not to eat but from distant memory of feeding in fresh water “as a child.” Often, they slowly move to the fly, mouth the entire imitation, turn, and return to where they were holding. This is why it is not wise to “strike” to set the hook on them. If you do, the fly usually falls free from a slowly closing mouth. You either lower your rod if it is held high, or release a loop of line and wait to feel the line tighten. Consequently, fly proportions are sometimes quite different.

I was looking at the proportions of your streamer in terms of trout flies. But saltwater flies, bass flies, salmon and steelhead flies often have a very short, strong hook with a long length of material behind the hook for the very reason you mention.

As for peacock herl. I never rely on the strength of the herl for peacock bodies. It is far too fragile. One fish tooth or just grabbing it awkwardly from the fly box with hemostats will break it and it will partially unravel. I make a “yarn” of several herls wrapped around the tying thread, and almost always wrap wire in the opposite direction over the body.

I wasn’t going to go into this too deeply, but this is fun, so here goes . . .
I alluded to this in the earlier post but didn’t elaborate.

Guide flies.

Traditional, fully dressed salmon flies are extraordinarily beautiful. I have many tied by a well-known Welsch tyer. Others, by a Scottish tyer I met on a salmon river in BC. Others given to me. I’ve fished them. I’ve been reckless with them and ruined or lost many over the years. They can be fragile. The married wings separate and fray when fished. Peacock herl toppings break off. They are tied to be fished, but hours at the vice for a single fly? No guide can make a living doing that.

Hence, guide flies.

Guide flies are usually hair-wing versions of traditional fully dressed flies in the same colors, and more recently, durable, bright toppings of Flashabou and Crystal Flash. They are not works of art, but they are beautiful in their own way.

The angling world needs both.
Tie both.

Interestingly, this distinction in tying also exists, if less obviously, in trout flies. I think I mentioned this over a year ago in a post about the WD40 nymph. Take a peek at Mark Engler’s video. It’s his fly. The way he ties it is not “beautiful.”

You never want fish a river behind Cpt. Engler.
Ugly flies and all.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 pm

Regarding cheeks . . .

Your substitution of pheasant feathers for jungle cock is excellent. The bright spot is supposed to imitate “eyes.”

One tip: Prepare the cheeks beforehand by brushing head cement on a well married feather. Stroke them to marry the barbules, then use a small brush to coat them with head cement. Let them dry well before using them.

I like to tie both in at the same time, holding them in place on either side of the fly with thumb and forefinger of my left hand, a couple of loose wraps from the bobbin in my right hand, then slowly, gently tighten the loops before making a few more wraps.

I do the same with jungle cock, or did. I don’t have any left.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by FredS » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:45 am

I love this place and this thread. Let's dig deeper -

RE Eyes: You can buy fake jungle cock eyes printed on a sort of plastic sheet. I have some because I was attracted to flies with jungle cock eyes/cheeks when I started the hobby. I'm over that attraction now and moved on to easier and more practical flies. Besides, those fake eyes suck. Might as well buy some doll eyes and glue them on. (Yes, I have a few packages of doll eyes now too.) Lastly, painted eyes - when done well - don't look horrible. A dollop of white paint on each side of the thread head, followed by a toothpick tap of black paint, covered with head cement or UV goo doesn't look horrible either. At least not to the fish.

RE Short Strikes: Why, exactly, do we suppose fish sometimes strike short? My theories are twofold. Nesting fish (I'm thinking particularly of crappie here) often intend to simply shoo away intruders and may not even have their mouths open when they bump/tap the fly. Other times, fish eat not simply by closing their mouth around their prey, but by 'inhaling' the bug along with the surrounding water bubble. When that prey is attached to a line, it's not so easily sucked in.

I've also heard of fish striking their prey in order to stun it and then eating it on a secondary strike. I think that theory might apply more to salty fish though.

Thoughts?
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:15 am

Great stuff. I do really appreciate when y’all take the time for real conversation. I’m in church (I know, I know...), so I’ll reply for real later.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:57 am

Yup . . .
This thread is better than most on fly fishing forums!

(Clearly, you missed the post on the Catholic thread about putting your smartphone away during mass, Gabe! :pipe2: )

I love it, too. and appreciate everyone for contributing so thoughtfully.
It’s beyond refreshing.

I agree with everything you’ve said about short strikes, Fred. I was thinking all of that while I was posting the earlier posts.

Even a “territorial” nip at an intruder can result in a hookup if the hook bend is very close to the rearmost materials on the imitation. And the same goes for a fly not fully drawn into the vacuum created by the fish opening its mouth to suck in the fly.

As for eyes, my thoughts regarding “guide flies” suggest abandoning cheeks for the simple economy of time and materials that provides. If you’re tying for the beauty of a fully dressed fly, by all means, add cheeks.

Of course, eyes can always be painted on barbells, coneheads or large thread heads.

The technique for painting eyes on coneheads and thread heads couldn’t be simpler: place a blob of yellow paint on a palate of some sort. A scrap of wood works just fine. Dip the end of a kitchen match into the paint and then touch the thread head with the paint on the end of the matchstick. Let the yellow paint dry.

Then, do the same with black paint, but use the broken shaft (the thick part in the middle) of a round toothpick to place a smaller circle of black in the middle of the dried yellow circle. Bingo. Yellow eyes with black pupils.

For barbells, a small brush for the yellow and toothpick for the black is faster.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:04 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:57 am

(Clearly, you missed the post on the Catholic thread about putting your smartphone away during mass, Gabe! :pipe2: )
;)
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:19 pm

Steve, do you have any examples of the hair wing versions you refer to above?
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:58 pm

Gabriel wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:19 pm
Steve, do you have any examples of the hair wing versions you refer to above?
Here you go . . .

These are Thunder and Lightning salmon flies, both tied by Paul Burgess, fully dressed on top, hairwing below.

Image

If I were tying the hairwing version, I think I'd use red fox squirrel tail for the wing.
The black wing is likely dyed Whitetail deer tail.

These are small for salmon flies, #10.

Note that the beard on the fully dressed version includes both orange hen hackle and blue-dyed guinea fowl in the beard.

Here's a hairwing salmon/steelhead fly that uses guinea fowl for hackle and deer tail for the wing:

Image

I love this fly, but I'll be damned if I can remember its name!
Last edited by durangopipe on Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by Gabriel » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:00 pm

Another experiment:

Image

Having a hard time with symmetry. Pheasant hackle, tail, and cheeks with turkey wings. #8 curved heavy nymph hook. Red floss and gold tinsel body.


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Re: The Fly Tying Thread

Post by durangopipe » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:41 pm

Gabriel wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:00 pm
Another experiment:

Image

Having a hard time with symmetry. Pheasant hackle, tail, and cheeks with turkey wings. #8 curved heavy nymph hook. Red floss and gold tinsel body.


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All of your flies look good and will catch fish just fine, Gabe, but the great fly tiers manage to get the shapes, forms, proportions and symmetry just right. The rest of us just do our best.

It's kind of like pipe making, I suspect.
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