I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 pm

+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:08 pm
Well, they’re basically right about immigration though, you know? :)

I love the Jesuit order. They bring out the side of God the rest of the church wants to pretend isn’t there. :twisted:
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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:20 am

+JMJ+

Inter-Thread Trackbacks: pg 90 / pg 90


Pope Francis’ Donation To Migrants Causes Split Among Christians [Opinion]
Image

Is the Pope advocating for open borders and illegal crossings?

Pope Francis recently decided to donate a half-million dollars to aid the migrants in Mexico, which has set off a flutter of controversy in the Christian world. In terms of helping illegal immigrants gain access to the United States, this puts the desire to be a “good” Christian at war with the need to protect home, family, and hearth. According to the Vatican News, the $500,000, “from the Peter’s Pence collections, will be distributed among 27 projects promoted by 16 Mexican dioceses and religious congregations, which requested assistance in continuing to provide food, lodging, and basic necessities to the migrants.”

This humanitarian approach is acceptable, but concern has arisen over the wording of the press release, which implies to some that the Church is advocating for open borders and illegal crossings.

[…]

The Pope has insinuated that open borders are the Christian way. In 2016, during Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, Francis said the call for a border wall was not Christian. “A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,” Francis said at the time. “This is not the gospel.”

However, the Catholic Vote website points out that Christians should seek a humanitarian way to treat migrants while respecting the law of the land:
… the Catholic Church has never advocated for illegal immigration or open borders. It respects the sovereign rule of law of the United States. It recognizes the need for effective border enforcement that protects Americans from criminal and terrorist elements but at the same time allows for orderly and legal immigration.
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops released a pastoral letter in 2003 entitled Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope, which provides an outline of how immigration reform should work. On the topic of enforcement, the letter states: “The U.S. Catholic Bishops accept the legitimate role of the U.S. government in intercepting unauthorized migrants who attempt to travel to the United States.”

[…]

Pope Francis is regarded widely as a controversial leader, with many of his flock questioning his liberal values and ideals. …

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:14 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:32 pm
+JM+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:06 am
[…]

… It is apparent that Francis is not only talking of supporting migrants, but now financially aiding them. …

[…]
Image
I don't say that as a bad thing. I was saying that as a true thing, and that in order to reveal my ignorance for a previous response you'd made. You see that, right?
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:35 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:14 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:32 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:06 am
[…]

… It is apparent that Francis is not only talking of supporting migrants, but now financially aiding them. …

[…]
Image
I don't say that as a bad thing. I was saying that as a true thing, and that in order to reveal my ignorance for a previous response you'd made. You see that, right?
Yes, I do see that.

#WeCoolBro

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed May 01, 2019 5:37 pm

+JMJ+

Letter signed by more than 1,500 accuses Pope Francis of the 'canonical delict of heresy'
Image
Pope Francis arrives for his general audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican April 24. (CNS/Vatican Media)

A group of Catholic scholars and priests has written an open letter to the College of Bishops accusing Pope Francis of heresy.

The letter, published by LifeSiteNews April 30, accuses Francis of a "comprehensive rejection of Catholic teaching on marriage and sexual activity, on the moral law, and on grace and the forgiveness of sins" and is framed as the third step in a process that began with a private letter to the cardinals and Eastern Catholic patriarchs in 2016.

While the 2016 letter from a similar group pointed out "heresies and other serious errors" promoted by Francis' apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, and a 2017 "filial correction" asserted that Francis had "upheld" seven heretical positions, those signers stopped short of stating that the pope was guilty of heresy.

The April 30 letter goes farther, accusing Francis of the "canonical delict of heresy," which the writers define in their summary as when someone "knowingly and persistently denies something which he knows that the Church teaches to be revealed by God."

They ask the bishops to publicly admonish Francis to "abjure" those heresies, including "repudiating and reversing" actions that have manifested heresy such as "nomination of bishops and cardinals who have supported these heresies by their words and actions."

If Francis does not repent, the letter asks that the bishops declare that he has committed heresy and must "suffer the canonical consequences of this crime." Those consequences should include removal from office, the writers argue in a section after the signatures that discusses canon law and theology related to papal heresy.

The letter's 19 signers include Dominican Fr Aidan Nichols; Georges Buscemi, president of Campagne Québec-Vie and member of the John-Paul II Academy for Human Life and Family; Maria Guarini of Pontificia Università Seraphicum in Rome; Brian McCall, a law professor and editor-in-chief of Catholic Family News; Anna Silvas, adjunct senior research fellow at the University of New England; John Rist; Robert Cassidy; Fr. Thomas Crean; Fr. John Hunwicke; Peter Kwasniewski; and John Lamont.

A Change.org petition inviting additional signatures had added over 1,500 names by mid-morning May 1.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:37 pm
+JMJ+

Letter signed by more than 1,500 accuses Pope Francis of the 'canonical delict of heresy'
Image
Pope Francis arrives for his general audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican April 24. (CNS/Vatican Media)

A group of Catholic scholars and priests has written an open letter to the College of Bishops accusing Pope Francis of heresy.

The letter, published by LifeSiteNews April 30, accuses Francis of a "comprehensive rejection of Catholic teaching on marriage and sexual activity, on the moral law, and on grace and the forgiveness of sins" and is framed as the third step in a process that began with a private letter to the cardinals and Eastern Catholic patriarchs in 2016.

While the 2016 letter from a similar group pointed out "heresies and other serious errors" promoted by Francis' apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, and a 2017 "filial correction" asserted that Francis had "upheld" seven heretical positions, those signers stopped short of stating that the pope was guilty of heresy.

The April 30 letter goes farther, accusing Francis of the "canonical delict of heresy," which the writers define in their summary as when someone "knowingly and persistently denies something which he knows that the Church teaches to be revealed by God."

They ask the bishops to publicly admonish Francis to "abjure" those heresies, including "repudiating and reversing" actions that have manifested heresy such as "nomination of bishops and cardinals who have supported these heresies by their words and actions."

If Francis does not repent, the letter asks that the bishops declare that he has committed heresy and must "suffer the canonical consequences of this crime." Those consequences should include removal from office, the writers argue in a section after the signatures that discusses canon law and theology related to papal heresy.

The letter's 19 signers include Dominican Fr Aidan Nichols; Georges Buscemi, president of Campagne Québec-Vie and member of the John-Paul II Academy for Human Life and Family; Maria Guarini of Pontificia Università Seraphicum in Rome; Brian McCall, a law professor and editor-in-chief of Catholic Family News; Anna Silvas, adjunct senior research fellow at the University of New England; John Rist; Robert Cassidy; Fr. Thomas Crean; Fr. John Hunwicke; Peter Kwasniewski; and John Lamont.

A Change.org petition inviting additional signatures had added over 1,500 names by mid-morning May 1.

[…]
I saw a few articles about this floating around yesterday. I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on this. Other Catholics too.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu May 02, 2019 8:37 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:36 am
wosbald wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:37 pm
+JMJ+

Letter signed by more than 1,500 accuses Pope Francis of the 'canonical delict of heresy'
Image
Pope Francis arrives for his general audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican April 24. (CNS/Vatican Media)

A group of Catholic scholars and priests has written an open letter to the College of Bishops accusing Pope Francis of heresy.

The letter, published by LifeSiteNews April 30, accuses Francis of a "comprehensive rejection of Catholic teaching on marriage and sexual activity, on the moral law, and on grace and the forgiveness of sins" and is framed as the third step in a process that began with a private letter to the cardinals and Eastern Catholic patriarchs in 2016.

While the 2016 letter from a similar group pointed out "heresies and other serious errors" promoted by Francis' apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, and a 2017 "filial correction" asserted that Francis had "upheld" seven heretical positions, those signers stopped short of stating that the pope was guilty of heresy.

The April 30 letter goes farther, accusing Francis of the "canonical delict of heresy," which the writers define in their summary as when someone "knowingly and persistently denies something which he knows that the Church teaches to be revealed by God."

They ask the bishops to publicly admonish Francis to "abjure" those heresies, including "repudiating and reversing" actions that have manifested heresy such as "nomination of bishops and cardinals who have supported these heresies by their words and actions."

If Francis does not repent, the letter asks that the bishops declare that he has committed heresy and must "suffer the canonical consequences of this crime." Those consequences should include removal from office, the writers argue in a section after the signatures that discusses canon law and theology related to papal heresy.

The letter's 19 signers include Dominican Fr Aidan Nichols; Georges Buscemi, president of Campagne Québec-Vie and member of the John-Paul II Academy for Human Life and Family; Maria Guarini of Pontificia Università Seraphicum in Rome; Brian McCall, a law professor and editor-in-chief of Catholic Family News; Anna Silvas, adjunct senior research fellow at the University of New England; John Rist; Robert Cassidy; Fr. Thomas Crean; Fr. John Hunwicke; Peter Kwasniewski; and John Lamont.

A Change.org petition inviting additional signatures had added over 1,500 names by mid-morning May 1.

[…]
I saw a few articles about this floating around yesterday. I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on this. Other Catholics too.
Speak for yourself, tuttle. I am completely unconcerned with what Wosbald thinks on this issue.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu May 02, 2019 12:30 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 91


Jimmy Akin on the absurd charge of heresy against Francis [Opinion]
Image



(Go to the 50 minute mark or so.)

Well done, Jimmy.

This absurd letter is the latest coup attempt by Reactionary crazies.

How crazy, you ask?

Here’s a guy on Twitter who is keeping tabs on some of the loonier stuff being aired by those hoping for the overthrow of Francis:

Image

Lest that sound exaggerated, it’s important to grasp that things like this coup are not emerging out of a vacuum, but really tightly wound up with stuff like Steve Bannon’s push to silence Catholic witness and promote far right ethnonationalism.

Note that this letter, like Vigano’s assault on Francis last summer, was carefully coordinated with such dubious lie factories as Liesite News and such sketchy Francis-haters as 1 Peter 5. The usual suspects have leapt upon this letter and are, yet again, ginning up panic over it. The people who used to yell, “The Church is not a democracy” at their culture war enemies are now yelling, “Who will save us from this satanic tyrant?”

The elevation of a few Reactionaries to the judge, jury, and executioners of the Pope is assisted by the National Catholic Register, who hit the high notes of hubris with this amazing ultimatum over on Facebook: “The Dominican priest is one of 19 academics and clergy calling on the world’s bishops to admonish the Pope and publicly reject heresy or face losing the papacy.”

And over what? Nothing. He used a ferula so he’s a satanist. Somebody give him a stole and he used it, so he’s gay or something. Give me a break. They want schism over nothing but their own lust for power.

This is the latest manifestation of the toxic Celebrity Culture approach to the faith that has infected postmodern conservative Catholic culture. Instead of listening to the Church, you go out and find some folk heroes that tell you what your itching ears want to hear and then threaten the Pope to knuckle under to them or “face losing the papacy”. It’s a power play and it is ridiculous.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu May 02, 2019 1:08 pm

So can I take it per:

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 91

that this accurately reflects your thoughts?
wosbald wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:30 pm
Jimmy Akin on the absurd charge of heresy against Francis [Opinion]

it’s important to grasp that things like this coup are not emerging out of a vacuum, but really tightly wound up with stuff like Steve Bannon’s push to silence Catholic witness and promote far right ethnonationalism.
That all of the reactions against the Pope from within the Roman Catholic Church are essentially fruits of the devious plottings of one Steve Bannon?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu May 02, 2019 2:12 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 91 / pg 91


Being a Prominent Scholar Or Theologian Does Not Give One Authority To Denounce The Pope [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Pbdesh01: Pope Francis Signature/WikiMedia Commons

Being a famous scholar or theologian, offering invaluable works that help promote and develop Christian theology, does not make someone free from error. Many great theologians have ended up being schismatic, if not outright heretical. Despite what personal failures which might leady some scholars and theologians to eventually hold erroneous if not outright dangerous views, their works often remain invaluable to the Christian faith, so that Christians can and should learn from them, though with care so as not to take on whatever error which diverted them from orthodoxy.

History can give us many examples.

Though not the first, Tertullian (160-220) is a prime instance of this. …

Novatian (200 -258), likewise was considered a significant Latin theologian. His On the Trinity is recognized as an important contribution to Latin Trinitarian theology, even if there were elements in it which suggested an erroneous subordinationism. His legalistic attitude towards the lapsed caused his schism with the Pope of Rome. He rejected the church’s pastoral authority to show mercy to the lapsed, saying they could not have their sins forgiven; in doing so, he demonstrated that just because he was an intelligent theologian, not everything he had to say was worthy of respect.

Apollinaris of Laodicea (d. 382) was a friend of St. Athanasius, indeed, an early defender of Nicea against the Arians. …

Patriarch Nestorius (386-451) was a great student of Theodore of Mopsuestia, an eloquent, indeed, influential preacher. …

Example after example from history can be lifted from history, showing great theologian after great theologian, such as Peter Abelard, Martin Lither or Ignaz von Döllinger, straying as a result of overconfidence in their private theological opinions. Great theologians, great scholars, great intellectual or ecclesiastical leaders who had been properly raised in prominence for their work and achievements, can be seen letting their own accolades get the best of them, so that they ended up ignoring and rejecting some basic element of Christian doctrine or practice. Many of them, but not all, found themselves following an extreme legalistic interpretation of Christian practice, incapable of understanding the nuance which the Christian mystery demanded of any theologian. Instead of listening to the church, they though themselves above the church, indeed, they ended up thinking they could judge of the church and its leaders. They used whatever authority they had to lead many followers astray. Great heretics did not become great heretics because they were unlearned; they became heretics because they failed to grasp how the Christian faith was to be addressed despite their learning.

It is no different today. …

[…]

It is in this light that Catholics need to understand that no matter how prominent particular scholars or theologian are, their criticism of the Pope does not, indeed, cannot stand on the fact that they are prominent scholars. Their accusations of heresy, when examined, are risible. They demonstrate the same fundamental mistakes of Novatian, with a lack of understanding orthopraxis in connection to the pastoral needs of the people. Detraction, especially against the Pope, can be easily done by a warped, fundamentalist approach to the Christian faith. Any Pope, any theologian, any saint, any Doctor of the Church, can have text ripped apart and taken out of context to make them represent something contrary to the spirit and teaching of the faith: those who seek heresy will find something they can use to claim heresy. However, heresy is something which is judged by the church, and it is only when the church’s declarations are denied that proper heresy is found, for then it becomes a willed contention against the church’s authentic teaching authority.

Pope Francis is not in open heresy: only those who deny mercy, those who deny pastoral economy like Novatian can begin to suggest such. He promotes orthopraxis, the spirit of love and mercy and social justice, which is exactly the spirit which fundamentalists hate because it does not hold well to their simplistic, indeed, literalistic approach to theology. People who want simple answers, people who want judgment without mercy, legalism without grace, doctrine without mystery, can easily make themselves appear to follow tradition through the words they use. Nonetheless, by the spirit of their words, it can become clear how far they are from the truth. They end up limiting God, limiting the faith, thinking that their simple understanding is the extant of the truth itself: this, of course, is what is being challenged by Pope Francis, and why he finds many of them contending against him.

Yes, there are some great theologians, like Aidan Nichols, who have contributed much in the theological disciplines, who seem to now stand against Pope Francis. They can be respected for and thanked for what they have contributed in the past. But their own limits to the Christian faith do not have to be followed just because of their scholarly background. The Christian faith is not a faith reduced to scholars and their ideologies. Authority is not had by mere study, but rather, by a charism which transcends study and the people who hold it. A great theologian can easily fall for their own greatness and think apart from the faith, to choose to hold to their own private theological ideas over and above the church’s teaching and practices; in doing so, they show why they do not have to be followed, for all they offer is a private opinion, an opinion which does not bind the church because of its private nature. Demanding what they do not have the authority to demand, proclaiming someone a heretic without the authority to proclaim heresy, will only undermine whatever contributions they could otherwise offer the church. Vladimir Solovyov once indicated that the Protestant faith was primarily a faith of scholars, where everyone can come up with their own opinion and view; it is this which Catholicism overcomes, not by denouncing scholarship, but by making sure scholars recognize the limits of their opinions. When we see scholars making demands, they go beyond the domain of scholarship, and therefore, beyond the domain of whatever authority they might have. They do not need to be listened to: indeed, when what they offer is ridiculous, they should not be listened to, but only ignored.1


1. N.B., I recognize I did not “respond” to the letter itself. I do not have to do so. The ideas within them are sufficiently ridiculous they do not merit that kind of response. I rather wanted to deal with the way its writers and signers are treated with respect, as if we should heed them because of their previous theological contributions. If that is all it took to be accepted, then theologians from another end of the spectrum, like Hans Kung, Bernard Häring, and ,Charles Curran should be given the same credibility and deference.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu May 02, 2019 2:32 pm

speaking in articles is cute, like, once.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu May 02, 2019 10:11 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91


We cannot take our faithfulness for granted [Opinion]
Image
Fr. John Christopher "Aidan" Nichols reading a prayerbook. (Source: Wikimedia Commons)

[…]

I am reminded of this story [of a friend-of-the-author's falling away] due to the recent news that the prominent theologian Aidan Nichols, OP, a highly-respected intellectual voice in the Church for many years, has thrown in his lot with a small group of Catholic scholars and clergy to accuse Pope Francis of “heresy,” through a letter to the Catholic bishops of the world. Catholic News Agency highlights the letter’s call to action from the bishops:
If — which God forbid! — Pope Francis does not bear the fruit of true repentance in response to these admonitions, we request that you carry out your duty of office to declare that he has committed the canonical delict of heresy and that he must suffer the canonical consequences of this crime,” the letter reads, later clarifying that it “is agreed that a pope who is guilty of heresy and remains obstinate in his heretical views cannot continue as pope.
This is a clear appeal from the authors to the bishops to discipline a pope. To do so is seriously problematic. On Twitter, canon lawyer Ed Condon posted the text of #1372 from the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 1372 A person who makes recourse against an act of the Roman Pontiff to an ecumenical council or the college of bishops is to be punished with a censure.
I’m not a canon lawyer, but if there’s a more clear example of someone making recourse against an act of the Roman Pontiff to the college of bishops, I haven’t seen one.

For all the good work that Fr. Nichols has done in his life and as a priest and theologian, the act of signing that letter risks destroying his reputation and good name, and threatens his standing in the Church. Because most of the other letter signers are fairly obscure (not to mention well-established and outspoken critics of the Holy Father), Nichols’s endorsement of the letter is gravest of all. His name is featured prominently in all of the articles about the letter; he is why this letter is noteworthy. His work is very well-known: his books have been studied in seminaries and universities around the world for decades. He’s been widely accepted as orthodox and intelligent and thoughtful. That is, until this week, when he tarnished his own name by signing onto an outrageous document that accuses the Vicar of Christ of using a “satanic” stang as a crosier (which is easily debunked) and supporting the LGBT movement by wearing a rainbow cross (ditto).

I will pray for Fr. Nichols to recant his endorsement of this letter and to once again embrace the faith in its fullness, and I hope that you will too.

[…]

Fortunately for Fr. Nichols, he still has time to convert and repent of this error. My friend has even more time, but he has brought his family along with him into error, so he might have an even steeper hill to climb.

These examples reveal how even the most zealous in the faith can be led right out of it. It’s possibly worth noting that both Nichols and my friend were converts to the faith. It’s possible that they ran so fast through the front door that their momentum carried them right through the back. I must point out that their experience isn’t exclusive to converts. It’s also important to emphasize that there are many converts (likely the vast majority) who approach their Catholicism with great gratitude and a spirit of openness to the Church.

We can’t take for granted that what we believe today will be what we will believe ten years from now. Persevering in the faith requires perseverance through challenges, doubts, and difficult situations. Events happen that can shatter our faith, or at least our understanding of it. Keeping the faith requires prayer, conversion, and trust. And for the Catholic faith, part of that trust is to hold fast to Christ’s words:
“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Mt 16:18)

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri May 03, 2019 6:52 am

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91


Heresy accusation letter, deconstructed [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Pope Francis greets bishops during his general audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican May 1. (CNS/Paul Haring)

Accusations of the pope's heresy show venom, assertions unhinged from reality, and possibly fear that Francis is right.

LifeSiteNews published an open letter to the bishops of the world, accusing Pope Francis of several counts of heresy, and urging the bishops to take action against him. This is a self-described continuation of the prior attacks on Francis, starting with the dubia from the five cardinals and then the 2017 "filial correction." Francis, wisely, has not responded to any of this nonsense.

The LifeSite article by Maika Hickson described the signers as "prominent clergymen and scholars," although I think all the names but one, Domincan Fr. Aidan Nichols, are more accurately described as obscure. Later, she calls the scholars "well-respected" and, again, I think Fr. Nichols was respected. After this foray into ecclesial politics, perhaps not so much.

[…]

I think you could make a similar argument against all of their points of indictment. But, that really is not the point is it? Trading proof texts from Scripture and tradition? This text has not been published in a peer reviewed theological journal, and it is most definitely not intended to persuade. It asserts. It takes a particular interpretation of the Catholic tradition and makes an idol of it, insisting that it and it alone is the only valid interpretation.

It is also clear that this line of argument really finds its roots not in the theology of John Paul II, still less the Second Vatican Council. These are neo-Feeneyites, adhering to the most extreme theological positions held before the Vatican II. (Fr. Leonard Feeney was an arch-conservative, whose views were so extreme he was excommunicated in 1953.) So, for example, they write that "[t]hese heresies are interconnected. The basis of Catholic sexual morality consists in the claim that sexual activity exists for the sake of procreation within marriage and is morally wrong if knowingly engaged outside of this sphere." Except that the Second Vatican Council and every pope since clearly taught that there are two ends of sexual intimacy, procreation and the unity of the spouses. This latter doesn't make the cut for the neo-Feeneyites.

They "prove" the pope is a heretic by citing some of his public statements and certain actions. The public statements mostly have to do with Amoris Laetitia and specifically whether or not, in certain circumstances, the divorced and civilly remarried can be admitted to the sacraments. We heard these arguments during the two synods that led to Amoris Laetitia. They do not dwell on this fact: It is not only Francis, but two-thirds of the bishops gathered in synod who endorsed this different pastoral approach to ministering to people in such irregular situations. Nor do they note that what is really at issue here is as much our Catholic understanding of the Eucharist as it is our understanding of marriage. Most importantly, they fail to recognize that Francis sees his role as a pastor, not as theologian-in-chief, and his goal is not to make doctrine pristine and irrefutable, but to make it come alive in the lives of the Catholic faithful. But this letter is not a document that is looking for nuance or subtlety.

[…]

My favorite part of the text is when the signatories do a reprise of the Viganò testimony and provide "evidence" of Francis' heretical inclinations in some of his public actions, most especially the promotion of certain prelates. "By publicly praising individuals who have dedicated their careers to opposing the teaching of the Church and the Catholic faith, and to promoting and committing crimes condemned by divine revelation and natural law, [the pope] communicates the message that the beliefs and actions of these individuals are legitimate and praiseworthy," they write. They do not mention if they also use a Ouija board to discern what the pope's actions do or do not communicate.

The three Americans mentioned among these evil prelates are Cardinal Blase Cupich, former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and Cardinal Donald Wuerl. Cupich was named bishop of Rapid City, South Dakota, by John Paul II. He was later transferred to Spokane, Washington, by Pope Benedict XVI. Francis transferred him to Chicago. Was Cupich's initial appointment to Rapid City a sign that John Paul II was a heretic? Was Benedict XVI a heretic for sending him to Spokane? McCarrick was first named an auxiliary bishop by Pope Paul VI, but he was promoted to Metuchen, New Jersey, by John Paul II, who promoted him to the archbishopric of Newark, New Jersey, then to the Archdiocese of Washington, and then named him a cardinal. McCarrick retired seven years before Francis was elected. Why is McCarrick's career evidence of Francis' heresy? John Paul II actually ordained Cardinal Wuerl a bishop and then later named him bishop of Pittsburgh. Benedict XIV named him to Washington and made him a cardinal. Again, are these prior popes to be confronted with the charge of heresy for these actions? This is nonsense on stilts.

The stilts get longer in the next section of the indictment, where the open letter alleges further instances of Francis behaving in a heterodox fashion. For example, during the youth synod last year, Francis "wore a distorted rainbow-coloured cross, the rainbow being a popularly promoted symbol of the homosexual movement." I recall that Frédéric Martel, in his salacious book about homosexuality in the Vatican, also discerned homosexual significance in a rainbow colored umbrella at the Domus Sanctae Marthae. But isn't the rainbow the sign of God's covenant with Noah? And is it now also a symbol of the peace movement? Alas these anti-Francis, and virulently anti-gay, activists, like the openly gay Martel, see homosexuality everywhere.

The letter condemns the pope for his agreement with China, mistakenly stating that the Chinese government gets to select bishops, when in fact the government gets to nominate them, a procedure that was followed through much of the West for many centuries when rulers not only nominated bishops but a wide variety of ecclesial offices. Rome then, as now, must confirm the nominations — or not. Besides, this is diplomacy, not dogma, so why is this complaint evidence of heresy?

[…]

You do not have to guess at the motives of this crowd. It is evident as day. Or is it? Like previous critics of Francis, they believe in a golden age that never existed. They visualize a church that never existed, in which the whole work of the church amounts to repeating the catechism of the Council of Trent. They want a kind of comprehensive certainty that is not available to us humans in this life. And those who do not see things as they do should hit the highway. This attitude bespeaks a certain insecurity, and I feel sympathy for those for whom this pontificate is unsettling, just as I felt sympathy for those Catholics who missed the Tridentine rite and found the vernacular Mass unsettling. But history marches on, and the Spirit, like the wind, blows where it will.

Feeney, remember, clung to the proposition "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus" — there is no salvation outside the church. He admitted only his narrow interpretation of this claim. For this, he was excommunicated, that is, he found himself outside the church. Thanks be to God, he was reconciled to the church before he died. I hope that the signatories of this dreadful letter will also come to think better of their tactics and their assertions.

When the five dissident cardinals issued their dubia, I thought their action remarkable, but you can find deep disagreements about important issues in almost any decade of Christian history. This time, I had a different reaction. This much venom, directed at the pope himself, leads me to think that this letter is not merely the result of a disagreement with the pope, even a fierce disagreement. This much venom, page after page of assertions so unhinged from reality, I wonder if this is not the result of these signatories' entertaining the sneaking suspicion that Francis is right, that he has called the church back to the central kerygma of the Gospel: Jesus has come to proclaim and enact God's limitless mercy, and the measure of our receptiveness to this great grace is how we care for the poor. I suspect that, deep down, they know Francis is right, and it scares the living daylights out of them, requiring a conversion of heart, as well as mind, that they desperately wish to avoid.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri May 03, 2019 10:34 am

I'm going to find a different place. This here is Wos's private <poperated>' hole.

Stinks, too.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri May 03, 2019 12:17 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91


Serious and unserious allegations of papal heresy [News Analysis, In-Depth]
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Pope Francis walk at the end of his weekly general audience in Saint Peter's Square. (Credit: Shutterstock)

Washington D.C., May 2, 2019 / 04:15 pm (CNA) — On April 30, a group of 19 Catholics released an open letter to the bishops of the world, accusing the pope of heresy and demanding that the college of bishops act to make him “adjure.”

According to the letter’s signers, which include a handful of prominent academics, Pope Francis has committed the canonical crime of heresy, which entails publicly and obstinately doubting or denying credenda teachings — those Catholics are required, according to canon law “to believe with divine and Catholic faith.”

But despite the letter’s strident claims, the arguments advanced by its authors do not appear to make a legal, or consistent, argument against the Holy Father regarding the specific charge of canonical heresy.

[…]

Committing the canonical crime of heresy requires the obstinate doubt or denial of a credenda teaching, and like any crime, has to be clearly manifested in the external forum and not merely inferred to be a person’s inner disposition.

Legally, the criterion of obstinacy is demonstrated when a legitimate correction or warning is demonstrably rejected. The letter’s authors insist that the pope’s obstinacy — or “pertinacity” as they prefer — is demonstrated ipso facto by statements from the pope which he should, by his education experience and office, know better than to make.

[…]

While the letter may be an honest expression of opinion by the 19 signers, few experts have concluded that it serves to demonstrate the obstinate manifestation of heretical beliefs by the pope in law or fact.

[…]

There is no legal requirement that the pope offer the letter’s signers an explanation of his behavior sufficient to meet their own standards, nor does canon law recognize the expression of their own concerns as a canonically meaningful warning.

Given the insistence of the letter that the pope is not only in material heresy, but guilty of the canonical delict, the apparent gap in legal understanding detracts significantly from the letter’s gravity.

[…]

If support for the letter’s legal premise has been absent, its reception among theologians has largely been one of disappointment.

Though many have noted that some of the issues raised in it are ongoing sources of concern and confusion for Catholics that would certainly benefit from an unambiguous clarification by the pope, by grounding their complaints in the “canonical crime of heresy,” the letters authors have been seen by many to work from a deeply flawed premise.

[…]

What is not disputed is that a formal public accusation of heresy against the pope by a group of Catholics, including clerics and academics associated with Catholic universities and institutions, cannot simply be ignored.

Whatever the document’s intentions, it does seem to represent a direct and public appeal to the college of bishops against what is explicitly termed a criminal exercise of the papal teaching office.

While canon lawyers often debate the hypothetical possibility and legal repercussions of an heretical pope, the discussion of what may or should be done about the challenge to papal authority by the letter’s authors may prove to be anything but theoretical.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon May 06, 2019 10:41 am

+JMJ+

In Bulgaria, Pope tells migrants they carry a ‘cross for humanity’ [In-Depth]
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Pope Francis is given drawings from children staying at the Vrazhdebna refugee camp in Sofia, Bulgaria on May 6, 2019. (Credit: Vatican Media/pool photo)

SOFIA — On his second day in Bulgaria, Pope Francis made an early morning visit to a refugee center, thanking children and families for their joy despite the pain of leaving their homes and the difficulties of integrating into another culture.

Welcomed by songs from children as he arrived at the Vrazhdebna refugee center, Francis was shown around the facility before taking time to individually greet the 50 migrants and refugees, as well as a number of volunteers from the pontifical Caritas charity organization.

In off-the-cuff remarks, the pope said migration is a painful path, and that “it’s not easy to leave your land and to insert yourself into another land.”

“Today, the experience of migrants and refugees is a bit of a cross, a cross for humanity, and the cross of so many people who suffer,” he said, thanking the children and families for their “joy” and goodwill in walking this “painful path,” often arriving in countries where they face even more difficulty.

He closed his brief remarks by asking for prayer, and then he was given drawings from the children who live at the center, which currently houses some 20-25 families.

Opened in September 2013, the “camp” is an abandoned school that was repurposed to house migrants and refugees on their way to other countries around Europe. It was closed briefly in November 2018 for renovations to get it up to the standards of the European Un𝗂on and was reopened about two months ago.

[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Mon May 06, 2019 7:09 pm

We should post some of the good stuff that Pope Francis says.... the spiritual stuff that the media doesn't bother to spin.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:34 am
I'm going to find a different place. This here is Wos's private <poperated>' hole.

Stinks, too.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon May 06, 2019 9:31 pm

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:09 pm
We should post some of the good stuff that Pope Francis says.... the spiritual stuff that the media doesn't bother to spin.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue May 07, 2019 7:26 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91 / pg 91


Why the Nichols Letter is different [Opinion, In-Depth]
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Image by Free-Photos from Pixabay

Since the release of the open letter signed by Aidan Nichols and others, many of Pope Francis’s critics on social media are defending it with the same talking points they’ve used to defend their positions on the “dubia” and many other initiatives critical of the Holy Father. They are applying lines like, “we need clarity from the pope,” or “We love Francis but he needs to correct some things.”

Apparently, they haven’t read it closely or don’t seem to understand what the signatories are asserting and what they are asking for in this letter. This is not a petition to the Holy Father to clarify or correct teachings. Nor is it simply a statement of serious concerns that they have with the pope. This letter is much more serious than many of the documents that have been launched at the Holy Father in the last 3 years.

This letter makes specific claims about Pope Francis, and it requests the bishops of the world to take specific actions, with an explicit purpose. If you are going to defend the letter, do so with a clear understanding of what you defend. The authors are stating that Francis is no longer pope, and are asking the bishops of the world to confirm this in an official declaration.

In summary, the letter writers are saying:
  1. Francis is a heretic. (“We are accusing Pope Francis of the canonical delict of heresy.”)
  2. A pope automatically loses his office when he teaches heresy. (“Neither the 1917 Code of Canon Law nor the 1983 Code of Canon Law abrogate the principle that a heretical pope loses the papal office. This is agreed by all commentators on these codes, who state that this principle is correct.” And later, “The incompatibility between heresy and membership of the Church is what leads to the loss of the papal office by a heretical pope.”)
  3. The official ratification of this must be made by the bishops. (“It should instead be accepted that the pope cannot fall from office without action by the bishops of the Church.” And later, “The Church’s determining that a pope is a heretic, and the announcement of his heresy by the bishops of the Church, is what makes the pope’s heresy a juridical fact, a fact from which his loss of office ensues.”)
  4. The authors appeal to the bishops of the world to officially declare this. (“We request that you carry out your duty of office to declare that he has committed the canonical delict of heresy and that he must suffer the canonical consequences of this crime.”)
To put it in other words, so there is no confusion: the letter writers conclude that Francis is not the pope anymore because he is a heretic, and they are asking the world’s bishops to officially confirm this. The signatories are basically sedevacantist, but unlike more conventional sedevacantists, they think the papal vacancy must be declared in an official way by the bishops. They state this in the letter:
Sedevacantist authors have argued that a pope automatically loses the papal office as the result of public heresy, with no intervention by the Church being required or permissible. … It would leave each individual Catholic to decide whether and when the pope could be said to be a heretic and to have lost his office. It should instead be accepted that the pope cannot fall from office without action by the bishops of the Church.
This does not mean, however, that the signatories actually believe Francis is still pope. The signatories seem to have come to an agreement that episcopal intervention is necessary to officially declare it has happened. They agree with sedevacantists that Francis is not the pope. The episcopal role in this process is merely to confirm the “loss of papal office,” not to depose him. …

[…]

This document can be interpreted as an act of schism, not simply a petition to the pope. The signatories implore the bishops of the world to come together and officially declare him a heretic who has already renounced his office.

[…]

Despite its outrageous and false claims, this letter could ultimately benefit the Church. It might serve as a catalyst for more serious critics of Francis to begin to denounce the extremists in their ranks. In fact, a number of people who are generally critical of Pope Francis spoke out strongly against this, including Nichols’ fellow Dominican Thomas Petri, who called the letter “frankly disappointing.” Ed Condon of CNA said,
Despite the letter’s strident claims, the arguments advanced by its authors do not appear to make a legal, or consistent, argument against the Holy Father regarding the specific charge of canonical heresy.
On Twitter, canonist Ed Peters (a constant critic of Pope Francis’s teachings) suggested that his rebuttal of the letter is forthcoming. Prominent anti-Francis author Phil Lawler commented that “the claim that the Pope has committed heresy is at best a leap of logic.” Fr. Thomas Weinandy, writing at First Things, describes the letter as “extreme in its appraisal and intemperate in its approach.”

While none of these critics have backed away from their usual critiques of the Holy Father and his teachings, they do seem to realize that this new letter is a bridge too far, and that it isn’t a constructive or responsible way to raise concerns about him.

The letter signed by Fr. Nichols and others is a new dividing line between those who have genuine concerns and critiques and those who are fanatical in their determination to overthrow the Vicar of Christ. It might also lead more serious papal critics to understand their responsibility in fostering this radicalization through their support of the dubia and other organized attempts to undermine and “correct” the pope.

[…]

The main point of this post is to is that if you are someone who criticizes Francis and his papacy, you should think twice before defending this letter. Understand what this letter is saying. Read it and comprehend it, don’t just endorse it because it criticizes the pope. If ecclesial community in the Church is important to you, you should not defend this letter. Also, please understand that giving in to this spirit of rebellion can ultimately lead to harmful and irreparable division in the Church.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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