I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm

+JMJ+

A Warning from History: St Paul VI, the Magisterium, and Theology [In-Depth, Opinion]
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As the endless stream of “doctrinal declarations,” “corrections,” and “clarifications” continues to cause confusion and scandal for the Faithful, I feel it is imperative to cast our minds back to the pontificate of Pope St Paul VI, who, like Pope Francis, faced challenges and great criticism from some members of the Church. We may remember that in 1976, he displayed clear frustration and sadness at the anti-papal attitude of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X:
Unfortunately, the position you have taken is that of an antipope. What can I say? You have not allowed for any measure in your words, your actions, your behaviour … You judged the pope as disloyal to the faith of which he is the supreme guarantor. Perhaps this is the first time in history that this has happened. You told the whole world that the pope lacks the faith, does not believe, that he is a modernist and so on.
Fast forward four decades, and the situation is far worse. The advent of social media, and the business model of profiteering at the expense of the beauty of the Church, has created a climate of disharmony, division and disloyalty. Obedience to the Pope for some only now applies to popes who lie in the grave, rather than the one who lives and watches over the flock with Christ’s authority here and now. Thankfully, in Pope Francis, we have a Pope with a very good sense of humour, endowed with true charity and mercy; one who it seems is able to deal with these constant dissenters in a way that does not distract him from his unique ministry as successor to St Peter.

Returning to St Paul VI, a decade before his confrontation with Archbishop Lefebvre, he gave a profound and prophetic address to an International Congress on the Theology of Vatican II.[1] His aim was to remind the 1400 theologians present, of their role as a bridge between faith and magisterial authority. I believe this address­ — in the present climate of artificially constructed confusion by those opposed to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches (cf. Rev 2:7) — can serve to bury once and for all, the rather silly accusation that all who profess total obedience to the teaching authority of the Pope are guilty of papolatry. Instead, the text calls those bishops, priests, theologians and laity who in one way or another dissent from the authentic magisterial teachings of the present Pope, to leave this dead end path and return to fully unity cum Petro et sub Petro.

[…]

It is the following passage concerning the magisterium’s function that is of critical importance and relevance to the manufactured confusion of today, especially in the light of Amoris Laetitia, the alteration to the teaching on the death penalty, the doctrine of doctrinal development, and of course, the doctrine of papal authority:
The magisterium on the other hand, has received authority from Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, through which it teaches the People of God. Its official task is, first and foremost, to bear witness to the teaching received from the Apostles and hand it on, so that it might become the possession of the universal Church and of the whole human family; to maintain this doctrine completely free from errors and distortions; in the light of Divine Revelation to pass authoritative judgment on new teachings, and on the considerations proposed by theology as solutions to new questions; and finally, to authoritatively propose new and deeper investigations into Divine Revelation, and new adaptations of this Revelation to our times — which it, with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, judges to be in full accord with Christ’s teaching.
This very clear teaching of St Paul VI is in perfect harmony with the doctrine stating that through the centuries until Christ’s return, the Church will discover in an ever more mature and perfect way, the truth of its own teachings. That is the purpose of doctrinal development, to refine and prune, until the full beauty of the truth is made manifest in the way that God intends it. This is simply the final stage of what God has done throughout salvation history; he teaches us patiently, wanting us to search and yearn for the truth, so that we ultimately discover the full glory of his salvific plan. Mariology is one stellar example of this, the dignity of human life is another.

[…]

So we can see from this most valuable address that there is no wiggle room for theologians, laity or anyone else to be acting as a sort of theological vigilante association. There never was and never will be a counter-magisterium because the Holy Spirit has willed that a teaching authority should exist in, which He would guide in an authoritative and unique way. That explains why all bishops must be in communion with the Pope, and not the other way round. If we remain loyal and obedient to the divine will in this matter, then we can rest assured that we will always walk along the right path; we will stop the devil in his endless pursuit to replace humility with pride and thus lead many souls to ruin. No, what Jesus our Divine Master desires is filial love and devotion to His Vicar on earth.

The present supposed fight for the tradition and soul of the Church against the Pope is doomed to failure because it is a fight against God in reality. Yes, the fight against liberal dissention must continue because that is also opposed to God’s law, and only serves to encourage sin and a lighter carrying of the Cross. The true path to sanctity is through humility, obedience, prayer, and sacrificial love. If obedience to magisterial teaching is lacking, then the door is opened for a disintegration of the kind of spiritual life that leads to living in conformity with the divine will.

[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:25 pm

+JMJ+

You Will Not Become Like the Roots [Opinion]
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There is a trend in Pope Francis criticism that makes a big deal about the fact that “anything [the pope says] can be made to sound orthodox”. I’ve seen Feser and now Dan Hitchens bringing it up as if it were a profound point.

In an article called “Pope Francis Forgets” Hitchens says:
… practically any statement can be reconciled with Church teaching, if you try hard enough. Give me a minute, and I can probably explain why a papal remark such as “States must be secular” or (of some cohabiting couples) “they have the grace of a real marriage” can be given an orthodox interpretation. Indeed — to move from real examples into a thought experiment — “Jesus Christ is not the son of God” could be given an orthodox interpretation if you really want one. (It all depends on the meaning of “son” …)
Prior to Hitchens article, Ed Feser wrote:
… it does not suffice to come up with some strained or unnatural interpretation that avoids strict heresy. That is a much lower standard than the Church herself has applied historically, and would rule out very little. To take an example I have used in the past, even the statement “God does not exist” could be given an orthodox interpretation if you strain hard enough. You could say: “What I mean when I say that is that God does not ‘exist’ in the sense of merely having or participating in existence, the way other things do. Rather, he just is Subsistent Being Itself and the source of the existence of other things.
Yes, anything can be made to appear orthodox by taking it out of context, equivocating on the meaning of terms, interpretations that “stretch” the truth, etc. But has Pope Francis done that? Is Pope Francis misleading people on doctrine via the above tricks?

[…]

If one’s understanding of orthodoxy or theology is too narrow then it will be massively confusing trying to force the square peg of reality into the round hole of one’s limited theological imagination. One must always ask the question: is the pope really unorthodox or is my understanding of orthodoxy too limited? What is more probable, that the pope is a heretic or that I’m not the world’s greatest theologian?

[…]

["A deeper problem with the assumptions behind all the complaining about the pope being confusing" is] that they comprise a kind of cult of clarity that doesn’t seem to have any basis in history or sound theology. They seem more inspired by a kind of rationalism that clings to past certainties in a way that makes impossible the actual development of doctrine because they want to judge the present magisterium (the only kind there is) by the past, which really amounts to their own interpretation of the past. Feser articulates the principle like this:
A theological statement — especially when made by a churchman to a mass audience — should be clearly orthodox on a natural reading, not merely arguably orthodox on some creative reading.
But why? If that were true then nothing new could ever be said. All any “churchman” could say is what has already been said before. There could be no room for novelty, no possibility to be surprised by new insights or new applications to new circumstances. This is a formula for keeping doctrine safe, clear and impotent.

Now compare Feser’s principle with this one from Pope Francis:
Tradition is like roots [of a tree], which give us nutrition to grow. You will not become like the roots. You will flower, grow, give fruit. And the seeds become roots for other people.
This more traditional metaphor for the organic development of doctrine would be impossible under Feser’s principle. For Feser, the tree must always resemble the roots, must look like the roots, must be judged by the roots. But that’s not how growth works. Fed by the roots, the tree blooms in unexpected directions sprouting flowers and fruit. And then becoming new seeds that will become roots for others.

[…]

This cult of clarity that is the basis of so many criticisms of Pope Francis and his supposed “ambiguity” ignores or forgets the actual cost of that doctrinal clarity, where it actually exists. Joseph Ratzinger once wrote that “every one of the big basic concepts in the doctrine of the Trinity was condemned at one time or another.”

The clarity and stability that we now enjoy with doctrines like the Incarnation or the Trinity came at a price. It was paid for in blood and sweat and fighting and confusion and uncertainty and ambiguity for decades or even centuries. As a result, these are some of the most stable and secure doctrines we have. They don’t appear to develop much anymore because there was already so much development in the early centuries of the church.

But in other areas of doctrine and theology, the great turmoil is still to come or is happening now. One can’t expect that kind of clarity and stability for every magisterial pronouncement without paying the same price. The devotees of the Cartesian Magisterium, though, want their “clear and distinct” ideas for free.

Uncertainty and ambiguity are surely part of the growing pains of the living Church. By ignoring or denying this, the reactionary critics of Pope Francis have shown that theirs is an allergic reaction to the Church being an actual living body.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:05 pm

One must wonder why so many feel the need to condemn each other. Are we perhaps dealing with people who are being paid to write articles? The problem could bethe 24 hour news source and its desire for us all to take sides to sell more ad space.

I am a Latin Mass going Catholic that attends a diocesan church run by the canons of the ICKSP. I am in full communion with Rome and support this Pope even if I don't always understand him. What's to be gained by constantly attacking me? Will I somehow become more loyal, or am I being told I'm not wanted?
Or is it a tempest in a teacup?

I've had enough of being told off for believing my catechism, though.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 pm

I don't care a whit what the blogging pundits have to say about Pope Francis.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:33 am

The Holy Spirit knows
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"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:12 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:05 pm
One must wonder why so many feel the need to condemn each other. Are we perhaps dealing with people who are being paid to write articles? The problem could bethe 24 hour news source and its desire for us all to take sides to sell more ad space.

I am a Latin Mass going Catholic that attends a diocesan church run by the canons of the ICKSP. I am in full communion with Rome and support this Pope even if I don't always understand him. What's to be gained by constantly attacking me? Will I somehow become more loyal, or am I being told I'm not wanted?
Or is it a tempest in a teacup?

I've had enough of being told off for believing my catechism, though.
ICKSP

I never heard of that before. Looked it up earlier today. It was edifying.

It takes all I can muster to make Mass/Divine Liturgy. To go to a well done Mass or Divine Liturgy sure is encouraging. I truly wish to leave politics, church politics or temporal politics behind when I begin the journey that takes place at Mass.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:08 am

+JMJ+

In Naples, Pope Francis warns theologian against ‘collapsing’ into ideology [In-Depth]
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Pope Francis waves to faithful as he attends a conference on the interreligious dialogue at the Jesuits house in Naples, Italy, Friday, June 21, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)

ROME — Pope Francis on Friday visited the southern Italian city of Naples, participating in a theology congress dedicated to interreligious dialogue and migration in the context of the Mediterranean Sea.

The Argentine pontiff revisited some of his core concepts, calling for theologians to be an expression of a Church that is a “field hospital,” and to be merciful, because without this, “our theology, our law, our pastoral care, run the risk of collapsing into bureaucratic pettiness or ideology, which by its nature wants to tame the mystery.”

The theology summit was organized by the Pontifical Catholic University, a Jesuit institution. The scope of the gathering was to discuss the impact of the pope’s Apostolic Constitution Veritatis Gaudium, on theological studies. His speech was entitled “Theology after Veritatis Gaudium in the context of the Mediterranean.”

“Theology is the expression of a Church that is a ‘field hospital,’ which lives its mission of salvation and healing in the world!” Pope Francis said.

[…]

Speaking in particular about the context of the Mediterranean — which he’s often dubbed the mare mortum for the number of people who’ve died trying to reach European shore after fleeing hunger, violence and persecution in Africa and the Middle East — Francis said that it must be “in harmony” with the spirit of Christ, “with his freedom to go around the world and reach the peripheries, even those of thought.”

According to Francis, theologians are called to encourage “the meeting of cultures” with God’s revelation and the Church’s tradition, and even though “the ancient architectures of thought, the great theological syntheses of the past are mines of theological wisdom, they cannot be applied mechanically to current questions.”

[…]

Quoting his apostolic exhortation Evangelii Gaudium, written by the Argentine pontiff in 2013, Francis on Friday Francis said that, “For those who long for a monolithic body of doctrine guarded by all and leaving no room for nuance, this might appear as undesirable and leading to confusion. But in fact such variety serves to bring out and develop different facets of the inexhaustible riches of the Gospel.”

The theology that should follow Veritatis Gaudium, according to the pontiff ,is one that is done “in net,” and in the context of the Mediterranean, “in solidarity with the ‘castaways’ of history.”

[…]

Francis also spoke about the importance of dialogue among Christians, Muslims and Jews, particularly as a tool that can foster understanding and peace.

“With Muslims we are called to dialogue to build the future of our societies and our cities; we are called to consider them partners to build a peaceful coexistence, even when there are shocking episodes by fanatical groups that are the enemy of dialogue, such as the tragedy of last Easter in Sri Lanka,” the pope said, referring to the deadly bombings in three churches and two hotels on Easter Sunday that left over 250 people dead.

Being docile to the work of the Spirit when it comes to theology, Francis said, means to proclaim the faith without a spirit of conquest or the will to proselytize. Instead, it implies a dialogue “from within,” with men and women, their cultures and different religious traditions.

[…]

Lastly, Francis also urged theologians to work in an “interdisciplinary” way, overcoming “individualism.”

“The method of dialogue and listening, guided by the evangelical criterion of mercy, can greatly enrich the interdisciplinary knowledge and interpretation,” he said, making the prophecies of peace that the Holy Spirit “has never failed to arouse” emerge.

Francis spoke of this as a contrast to the “aggressive and warlike” attitudes that have marked the inhabitants of the Mediterranean, many of whom called themselves Christians: From colonial practices to the justifications of all kinds of wars and the persecutions perpetrated in the name of religion or an alleged racial or doctrinal purity.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:16 am

+JMJ+

U.S. bishops join pope reacting to photos of drowned migrant father, child
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The bodies of Salvadoran migrant Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez and his 23-month-old daughter, Valeria, are seen June 24, 2019, after they drowned in the Rio Grande in Matamoro, Mexico, while trying to reach the United States. (CNS/Reuters)

[Updated throughout with new headline and U.S. bishops' statement at 11:13 a.m. Central time June 26, 2019]

Washington — U.S. bishops joined Pope Francis in expressing sadness after seeing photos of the lifeless bodies of a migrant father and his daughter who drowned near the U.S. border with Mexico.

"This image cries to heaven for justice. This image silences politics. Who can look on this picture and not see the results of the failures of all of us to find a humane and just solution to the immigration crisis?" the bishops said in a June 26 statement.

"Sadly, this picture shows the daily plight of our brothers and sisters. Not only does their cry reach heaven. It reaches us. And it must now reach our federal government," said the statement, issued by Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, and Bishop Joe Vásquez of Austin, chairman of the bishops' Committee on Migration.

The photos of Salvadoran migrant Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez and his 23-month-old daughter, Valeria, lying face down in the shallow waters of the Rio Grande sparked outrage against the U.S. government due to squalid conditions at migrant facilities as well as increasingly harsher policies against immigrants, many of whom are from Central America, fleeing their countries due to violence, poverty and corruption.

"We can and must remain a country that provides refuge for children and families fleeing violence, persecution and acute poverty," the bishops said. "All people, regardless of their country of origin or legal status, are made in the image of God and should be treated with dignity and respect."

In response to journalists' questions June 26, Alessandro Gisotti, interim Vatican spokesman, said Pope Francis saw "with immense sadness" the photos.

"The pope is profoundly saddened by their death and is praying for them and for all migrants who have lost their lives while seeking to flee war and misery," Gisotti said.

In an interview with Mexican newspaper La Jornada, Martínez's wife, Tania, said she and her husband decided to cross the Rio Grande June 23 after waiting for two months for a response to their asylum request from the United States.

Hoping to cross the river into Brownsville, Texas, Martínez first crossed with his daughter and left her along the bank while returning back to help his wife cross. However, upon being left alone, Valeria was frightened and jumped into the river.

When Martínez rushed to save her, he and his daughter were instead dragged by the current. Tania was rescued by a person nearby, she told La Jornada.

[…]

Addressing reports of overcrowding and unsanitary conditions at migrant centers, DiNardo and Vásquez said "such conditions cannot be used as tools of deterrence."

"Congress has a duty to provide additional funding to address the needs of children in federal custody," they said. "Their supplemental appropriations bill should also increase protections for immigrant children, including heightened standards and oversight for border facilities. It is possible and necessary to care for the safety of migrant children and the security of our citizens. By putting aside partisan interests, a nation as great as ours is able to do both."

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:58 pm

+JMJ+

Pope praises Trump meeting with North Korean leader
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Pope Francis waves to faithful during the traditional Angelus prayer from the window of his studio overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican, Sunday, June 30, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)

After President Donald Trump became the first U.S. president to set foot in North Korea, Pope Francis called the meeting an example of the “culture of encounter.”

ROME — In what is being dubbed a “surprising development,” United States’ president Donald Trump Sunday became the first American commander-in-chief to set foot in North Korea, at the invitation of Kim Jong Un.

According to Pope Francis, speaking shortly after the meeting, it was an example of the “culture of encounter.”

“In the last few hours we have witnessed a good example of the culture of encounter in Korea,” Francis said Sunday.

“I greet the protagonists with the prayer that this significant gesture constitutes a further step in the path of peace. Not only on that peninsula but in favor of the whole world.”

The pope’s words came at the end of his traditional Angelus prayer, which he delivered from the one of the windows of the papal apartments overlooking St. Peter’s Square.

[…]

The meeting between Trump and Kim was organized on Saturday, both leaders confirmed, after Trump sent a tweet to the Korean leader suggesting they meet and “say Hello(?)!” The U.S. president was in the area participating in the G20 summit in Osaka.

Trump travelled to the demilitarized zone with the South Korean leader, and the three had an hour-long meeting at Peace House, which technically belongs to the southern side of the peninsula.

[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am

Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan. You know what their conclusion is because of the political bent. Maybe it's right or wrong, but because I'm unfamiliar with the bias, or the reason for the bias, it's hard to know if it's reflective of a major Catholic opinion or just the news rag. Outside of all of that, I'm just curious what folks around here think about it.

So, if yer so inclined to write, rather than cut and paste, what's your opinion on these topics?

1) There's some hubbub about the Pope giving relics of St. Peter to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I read (from a scandalized Catholic) that such a thing is tantamount to giving Protestants the bones of St. Paul. Others (non scandalized variety) say it's just a gesture of unity.

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:58 am

+JMJ+


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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:58 am
+JMJ+

Running out of links to post eh?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:25 am

Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:58 am
+JMJ+

Running out of links to post eh?
I remember Wos before the lobotomy, back when he was more Catholic than a mere pope could ever be. What a man he was then! Strong, virile, full of beans and capable of erudite conversation. The theological equivalent of the “after picture” of the fellow that sent away for the Charles Atlas he-man kit.

Then came the encounter with Father Martin, S.J., who introduced him to new experiences and helped him build his first bridge. He hasn’t been the same since. Kinda bitchy, between you and me. Keeps the papal pee in jars at home. Shuns the daylight and honest debate.

Sir, I knew Wosbald. Wosbald was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no

I say we pass the hat and get him exorcised.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:26 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:25 am
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:58 am
+JMJ+

Running out of links to post eh?
I remember Wos before the lobotomy, back when he was more Catholic than a mere pope could ever be. What a man he was then! Strong, virile, full of beans and capable of erudite conversation. The theological equivalent of the “after picture” of the fellow that sent away for the Charles Atlas he-man kit.

Then came the encounter with Father Martin, S.J., who introduced him to new experiences and helped him build his first bridge. He hasn’t been the same since. Kinda bitchy, between you and me. Keeps the papal pee in jars at home. Shuns the daylight and honest debate.

Sir, I knew Wosbald. Wosbald was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no

I say we pass the hat and get him exorcised.
What I find interesting, entertaining even, is how CPS has a Del and a Wos. But Father Martin? Is that true, wos? My my! I do enjoy the antics of Jesuits I must confess. But that Jesuit is downright revolutionary! :lol:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:04 am

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:26 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:25 am
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:58 am
+JMJ+

Running out of links to post eh?
I remember Wos before the lobotomy, back when he was more Catholic than a mere pope could ever be. What a man he was then! Strong, virile, full of beans and capable of erudite conversation. The theological equivalent of the “after picture” of the fellow that sent away for the Charles Atlas he-man kit.

Then came the encounter with Father Martin, S.J., who introduced him to new experiences and helped him build his first bridge. He hasn’t been the same since. Kinda bitchy, between you and me. Keeps the papal pee in jars at home. Shuns the daylight and honest debate.

Sir, I knew Wosbald. Wosbald was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no

I say we pass the hat and get him exorcised.
What I find interesting, entertaining even, is how CPS has a Del and a Wos. But Father Martin? Is that true, wos? My my! I do enjoy the antics of Jesuits I must confess. But that Jesuit is downright revolutionary! :lol:
No, it isn’t true, I’m being a doofus. Tongue in cheek. I love Wos. Del+Wos=why I’m Catholic.

Believe me, I’m kidding. Wos is as orthodox as they come.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am

+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
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Pope Francis speaks to indigenous groups in Puerto Maldonado, Peru, on Jan. 19, 2018. Standing with thousands of indigenous Peruvians, Francis declared the Amazon the "heart of the church" and called for a three-fold defense of its life, land and cultures. (NCR/AP/Alessandra Tarantino)

Much has been made in Catholic circles about the working document for the synod of bishops scheduled for this fall, currently titled "The Amazon: New Paths for the Church and for Integral Ecology."

One of the most important critics of the agenda set out in the instrumentum laboris is German Cardinal Walter Brandmüller, who has flatly announced that it "contradicts the binding teaching of the Church in decisive points and thus has to be qualified as heretical."

That, as they say in the business, is a strong statement.

One might expect that Cardinal Brandmüller would focus his criticism on the possible exceptional measures suggested in the working document to ordain elderly, indigenous married men in remote areas of the Amazon so the faithful there could go to Mass. This is where most of the buzz in the unfolding debate has been focused, with traditionalists laying out the case that the ordination of married men, however exceptional, would be heretical in ways that the church’s current practices — admitting married Episcopal clergy as converts to Catholicism or married priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches — are not.

But this is not where Brandmüller and others in his camp have voiced concern. Disturbingly, their first target seems to be Catholic social doctrine.

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Cardinal Walter Brandmüller. (RNS/Courtesy of the Vatican)

"Clearly," Brandmüller writes in a letter that LifesSite News published in full, "there is an encroaching interference here by a synod of bishops into the purely secular affairs of the Brazilian state and society. What do ecology, economy, and politics have to do with the mandate and mission of the Church? More importantly: what professional expertise authorizes an ecclesial synod of bishops to express itself on such topics?"

This may sound like a reasonable concern until it is put in the context of the Vatican’s true aims in the synod.

Put plainly, this synod will put the church on the side of the indigenous Amazon peoples. In particular, it will put the church on the side of an integral ecology that respects both God’s creation and its relationship with the flourishing of the indigenous Amazon peoples.

It will recognize, furthermore, that the church cannot be identified with the developed West alone and will honor the fact that, as Pope St. John Paul II insisted, Christ is present in indigenous peoples in a very special way.

[…]

The developed economic and political powers, of course, will not go down without a fight. But it is incumbent on the Catholic Church to remain faithful to our social doctrine by insisting on our religious duty to be on the side of the indigenous peoples in this conflict.

Bizarrely, Cardinal Brandmüller discards this mandate by suggesting that the questions the Synod document raises involve matters of professional expertise that the bishops do not have. He even suggests that topics like "ecology, economy, and politics" have nothing to do with the mission and mandate of the church.

This suggestion, which is closer to heresy than anything in the instrumentum laboris, is totally inconsistent with nearly 130 years of Catholic social doctrine.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am

tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am
Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan.

.....

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am
+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
[partisan article affirming the Amazon synod/condemning the critics]
Can I assume that your personal take on this lines up with the article?

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:23 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
[…]

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
Sentire cum ecclesia.

:cheese:

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:50 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:23 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
[…]

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
Sentire cum ecclesia.

:cheese:
Does Sentire cum ecclesia equal Sentire cum pontifex?
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:08 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:50 am
Does Sentire cum ecclesia equal Sentire cum pontifex?
sentire cum ecclesia
Image

Do you believe everything the Church teaches?

But do you really?

When candidates make their profession at the Easter Vigil, they are asked, “Do you believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God?”

The question cannot really be asking, “Do you in fact have specific knowledge of each and every thing that the Church teaches? If so, do you assent to those teachings?” It’s not as if there’s a checklist somewhere that lists “all” the Church’s teachings, with each candidate affirming them line by line. Candidates entering the Church aren’t made to swear on the Catechism.

Certainly, this is not what is meant by the candidates’ profession. What is being asked of the candidate is more like, “Would you?” If given the opportunity to do so in public or private, would you “believe and profess” with the Church?

One phrase that captures this principle is, “to think with the Church;” or, in St. Ignatius of Loyola’s formulation, sentire cum ecclesia. Sentire, of course, is not simply “to think,” which in English is often meant in a cold, rational way. Other words that are used to translate sentire are sense, feel, and perceive. “Feel” is a great translation that can also carry connotations of “think” except that “feel” can also imply the lack of rational thought.

What does it really mean to “think with the Church”?

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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