I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:47 pm

+JMJ+

Cardinal Sarah: To oppose the pope is to be outside the church
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Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, talks with Cardinal Christoph Schonborn of Vienna after a session of the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon at the Vatican Oct. 9, 2019. In an Oct. 7 interview with an Italian daily newspaper, Sarah said that whoever is against the pope is outside the church. (CNS/Paul Haring)

Vatican City — Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, said the people who portray him as an opponent of Pope Francis are being used by the devil to help divide the church.

"The truth is that the church is represented on earth by the vicar of Christ, that is by the pope. And whoever is against the pope is, ipso facto, outside the church," the cardinal said in an interview published Oct. 7 in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily.

The 74-year-old cardinal, who Francis appointed in 2014 as head of the office overseeing liturgical matters, often is portrayed as a critic of Francis, especially because of the cardinal's cautious attitude toward welcoming Muslim migrants to Europe, his concern about the church acting more like a social-service agency than a missionary church and his traditional approach to the liturgy.

[…]

In the Corriere interview, the cardinal was asked what the "truth" was about his relationship with Francis.

"The truth is that many people write not to give witness to the truth, but to place people against one another, to damage human relationships," he said. "The truth doesn't matter to them."

"Those who place me in opposition to the Holy Father cannot present a single word of mine, a single phrase or a single attitude of mine to support their absurd — and I would say, diabolical — affirmations," Sarah said. "The devil divides, sets people against each other."

Sarah said it is normal for the church to experience difficulties and divisions, but every Christian is called "to seek unity in Christ."

"I would add that every pope is right for his time," the cardinal said. "Providence looks after us very well, you know."

[…]

Noting that some Catholics "are quick to hurl anathemas at those who do not follow their line of thought," the cardinal said that it is time "to rediscover a bit of peace and benevolence. Only faith, confidence in the magisterium and its continuity down through the centuries can give us unity."

Catholics today must ask themselves if they truly believe the faith the church always has taught, the faith of their ancestors, is still valid today, Sarah told Corriere. "We are called to rediscover the truth of these (teachings) both with the incomparable analysis of Benedict's thought and with great and sunny industriousness of Francis."

Although the two popes have obvious differences, Sarah said, "there is a great harmony and great continuity between them as everyone has been able to see these last few years."

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:12 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:47 pm
+JMJ+

Cardinal Sarah: To oppose the pope is to be outside the church
Image
Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, talks with Cardinal Christoph Schonborn of Vienna after a session of the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon at the Vatican Oct. 9, 2019. In an Oct. 7 interview with an Italian daily newspaper, Sarah said that whoever is against the pope is outside the church. (CNS/Paul Haring)

Vatican City — Guinean Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, said the people who portray him as an opponent of Pope Francis are being used by the devil to help divide the church.

"The truth is that the church is represented on earth by the vicar of Christ, that is by the pope. And whoever is against the pope is, ipso facto, outside the church," the cardinal said in an interview published Oct. 7 in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily.

The 74-year-old cardinal, who Francis appointed in 2014 as head of the office overseeing liturgical matters, often is portrayed as a critic of Francis, especially because of the cardinal's cautious attitude toward welcoming Muslim migrants to Europe, his concern about the church acting more like a social-service agency than a missionary church and his traditional approach to the liturgy.

[…]

In the Corriere interview, the cardinal was asked what the "truth" was about his relationship with Francis.

"The truth is that many people write not to give witness to the truth, but to place people against one another, to damage human relationships," he said. "The truth doesn't matter to them."

"Those who place me in opposition to the Holy Father cannot present a single word of mine, a single phrase or a single attitude of mine to support their absurd — and I would say, diabolical — affirmations," Sarah said. "The devil divides, sets people against each other."

Sarah said it is normal for the church to experience difficulties and divisions, but every Christian is called "to seek unity in Christ."

"I would add that every pope is right for his time," the cardinal said. "Providence looks after us very well, you know."

[…]

Noting that some Catholics "are quick to hurl anathemas at those who do not follow their line of thought," the cardinal said that it is time "to rediscover a bit of peace and benevolence. Only faith, confidence in the magisterium and its continuity down through the centuries can give us unity."

Catholics today must ask themselves if they truly believe the faith the church always has taught, the faith of their ancestors, is still valid today, Sarah told Corriere. "We are called to rediscover the truth of these (teachings) both with the incomparable analysis of Benedict's thought and with great and sunny industriousness of Francis."

Although the two popes have obvious differences, Sarah said, "there is a great harmony and great continuity between them as everyone has been able to see these last few years."

[…]
Nice to read a friendly article for a change.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:23 pm

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:16 am

I like a great deal about this Pope. Not that it matters if I like him or not. He was chosen to be the Pope. Assuming it was a valid Papal election (which I have no good reason to suspect otherwise) I am bound to be obedient and humble in regards to the Pope and magisterium. I’m am glad of this. I am glad that Jesus deliberately set up a church with an ecclesiastical structure that we must be faithful to and promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against.

With that backdrop, it sets the stage as to how to deal with challenges whether they be doctrinal, dogmatic, pastoral, liturgical and so on.

How one must be obedient and humble and how that same person can also question and even challenge those issues are something worth considering.

The following is a piece I found that is reasonable to me.

The Church Permits Criticism of Popes Under Certain Circumstances.
Now, the papacy is like this. The Church has no official and explicitly stated policy about how to deal with a pope who teaches error or otherwise abuses his office. That is not because such error and abuse are not possible. On the contrary, not only has the Church always allowed for the possibility that a pope can teach error when not speaking ex cathedra and that he can make policy decisions that do grave harm to the faithful, but both of these things have in fact happened on a handful of occasions – for example, the doctrinal errors of Pope Honorius I and Pope John XXII, the ambiguous doctrinal formula temporarily accepted by Pope Liberius, the Cadaver Synod of Pope Stephen VI and its aftermath, and the mistakes of Pope Urban VI that contributed to the Great Western Schism. (I have discussed these cases here, here, and here.)

But there is in Catholic theology so strong a presumption against a pope making grave doctrinal and disciplinary errors that, as with a father in relation to his children, it would be potentially misleading and destabilizing explicitly to formulate a policy concerning what to in such a situation. Hence you won’t find in the Catechism a section on what to do about a bad pope. The very existence and expression of such a policy might give the false impression that bad popes are bound to arise with some regularity.

The downside is that on those rare occasions when a bad pope does come along, the Church is bound to be flummoxed.
To be clear, I don’t judge Pope Francis to be a “bad Pope.” To the contrary, I believe God chose a man like him for a reason and I really appreciate his style, at least to a degree. Though I wonder, as the Pope himself has publicly admitted, that perhaps he does make a few mistakes.

Regardless, dissenting bishops and faithful can only dissent so far. Even then, I leave the door wide open that if I question the teaching of the magisterium, it is likely because I do not fully understand what it is being taught. That is the case we discussed earlier with capital punishment. What the Pope said and asked of regarding the catechism is not an ex cathedra statement and it seemed vague in explanation, at least insofar as I have been taught.

As a father of my own children, I do not expect unquestionably obedient children in most cases. I am not perfect either. My children may challenge me in the right spirit as long as when prudent deliberations have been made they obey.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:28 am

+JMJ+

Inculturation and Syncretism [In-Depth]
Image
Mary crowned with a First Nations beadwork crown. St. Francis Xavier Church, Kahnawake Mohawk Territory, Quebec; May 2019. (Photo taken by the author)

With the ongoing Amazon synod dealing extensively with the relationship between Catholicism and various indigenous South American religious beliefs and practices, the concepts of inculturation and syncretism have rocketed into the Catholic news cycle. These terms are somewhat technical but many people have been able to get the (more or less accurate) sense that one of these things is desirable and the other is not. This piece seeks to provide working definitions and historical examples of both, so that our readers can investigate for themselves which aspects of the synod appear to be instances of the two concepts.

Inculturation refers to the adaptation of the Catholic Church’s practices to new cultural settings. This does not mean that the Church’s teaching or beliefs are changing. If anything, it changes the new culture more than it changes the Church, since objects and behaviors from the new culture gain a Catholic religious significance where there was no Catholic religious significance before.

A few now-uncontroversial examples from early in the Church’s history might be in order. The choir dress of a priest — the stole, alb, etc. that we associate with a priest dressed for Mass — was originally the everyday dress of a third- or fourth-century Roman citizen. The chasuble was originally the outermost garment of somebody dressed for a long journey; it looks like a poncho because originally it was a poncho. The word “basilica” was originally a Latin term for a courthouse, and “dioceses” were administrative units of the Roman Empire comprising several provinces. These garments, and these words, were part of the Church’s coming-to-terms with its original cultural setting in the ancient Mediterranean. The Church became so inculturated in this setting that we now associate vestments, basilicas, and dioceses solely with their ecclesiastical meanings.

Ancient inculturation extended to terms and concepts from non-Christian and even anti-Christian religions. The phrase “Queen of Heaven” first appears in salvation history in the Book of Jeremiah; Jeremiah uses it sarcastically to refer to a Canaanite goddess called Asherah. Asherah is one of a number of Ancient Near Eastern deities with whom the Hebrew Bible describes the God of Israel getting into turf wars over and over and over again. Thus, the use of the title in the Canaanite religion was obviously unacceptable; even so, the title itself carried enough of a cachet and an emotional weight that it was reassigned to Mary.

[…]

In our own age, the first shoots sent up by the semina verbi buried in non-Christian cultures became visible in 1939 when Pius XII revisited the Chinese Rites controversy. This had been a long-running dispute in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries over whether it was acceptable for Chinese Catholics to continue participating in certain Confucian ceremonies. Originally the conclusion had been that this was not acceptable, and this remained the Church’s position on the matter for almost two hundred years. When Pius became Pope, he gave ear to arguments that the Confucian ceremonies in question were cultural and philosophical rather than religious in character. Pius soon came to be convinced by these arguments and reversed his predecessors’ decisions on the matter. For the next ten years the Church boomed in China. Unfortunately, this brief springtime of Chinese Catholicism is mostly forgotten today, due to Mao Zedong’s efforts to destroy China’s religious culture after he came to power in 1949.

It needs to be noted that inculturation is not the same as attempting to blend Christian and non-Christian religious meanings simultaneously in the same object or activity. This is syncretism, on which the Church looks much less favorably. The verb is to syncretize, which is often expanded into the additional noun form syncretization. Cases of inculturation that are controversial or that some believe are misguided are often criticized as syncretism posing as inculturation. An example of inculturation that eventually became syncretic might be the “Hidden Christian” phenomenon that I mentioned in my first post for Where Peter Is. Separated from priests and reliably translated Bibles for centuries on end, underground Japanese Catholics blended their faith with other Japanese religious traditions to create a recognizable but obviously unorthodox system of belief and practice. When a permanent Catholic hierarchy was finally established in Japan in the late nineteenth century, it regarded the practitioners of this religion as simply not Catholic and required them to take steps to come into full communion with the Church.

Some amount of syncretization, however, is unavoidable, or at the very least almost always present, whenever two religions or cultures come into contact. To return to the example of Britain and Ireland, medieval Celtic Christianity showed numerous signs of having been influenced by pre-Christian Celtic beliefs rather than merely appropriating pre-Christian Celtic practices. Such signs ranged from the more lenient way in which Celtic confessors treated abortion compared to confessors on the Continent, to a seemingly uniquely Irish fascination with holy wells and springs. Thus, it is not always obvious which process is going on in a given instance of interreligious contact, and oftentimes both are happening on different levels.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 pm

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:38 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 pm
+JMJ+

St Francis referred to many creatures as brother and sister.

Quite interesting that we have a Pope named after St. Francis, the Patron Saint of the ecology. Appropriate for a synod that in part deals directly with it.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 am

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:38 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 pm
+JMJ+

St Francis referred to many creatures as brother and sister.

Quite interesting that we have a Pope named after St. Francis, the Patron Saint of the ecology. Appropriate for a synod that in part deals directly with it.
Funny, did you notice that there isn’t just one “mysterious wooden figure”, but in fact there are two of them? When asked, the prefect of the Dicastery of Communications said they were probably a representation of a fertility Goddess or Mother Earth.

I don’t remember Mary having a boat, either. Or a one armed man. Or a map of something or other they all move around on. I guess it’s not a service in honor of the Visitation anymore, either.

Beware syncretism. There isn’t a Madonna of the Amazon, no matter how hard one argues that’s what that statue is.

Use your head and don’t become a dupe. You don’t believe more people showed up for Trump’s inauguration than Obama’s, do you?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:43 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 am
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:38 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 pm
+JMJ+

St Francis referred to many creatures as brother and sister.

Quite interesting that we have a Pope named after St. Francis, the Patron Saint of the ecology. Appropriate for a synod that in part deals directly with it.
Funny, did you notice that there isn’t just one “mysterious wooden figure”, but in fact there are two of them? When asked, the prefect of the Dicastery of Communications said they were probably a representation of a fertility Goddess or Mother Earth.
I did notice. It’s weird. This from a guy who has been known to take great interest in natural religions. I do see a great need for the ecology and greater concern from the Church to love creation. OTH, I know full well what it looks like when we glorify nature at the expense of the truth of it’s current state of existence.
I don’t remember Mary having a boat, either. Or a one armed man. Or a map of something or other they all move around on. I guess it’s not a service in honor of the Visitation anymore, either.

Beware syncretism. There isn’t a Madonna of the Amazon, no matter how hard one argues that’s what that statue is.

Use your head and don’t become a dupe. You don’t believe more people showed up for Trump’s inauguration than Obama’s, do you?
I’m probably a dupe, but trying to discern what I’m seeing and learning here. I am reading what people are saying critically.

I have read several people’s idea of the “theology of the earth” or whatever naturistic language they use. That because God is everywhere and in everything, that creation is some sort of revelation of love. For example, I heard from one person who said, (paraphrased) that the Amazonians accept church buildings, but don’t know why they need them. It was in reference to God being everywhere.

Honestly, I think there is great confusion in the synod as to the difference between pantheism, panentheism and paganism. They are treating the people of the Amazon like glorified zoo animals and glorifying wild animals!

Here’s what I currently think is off track about the Amazon synod:

REDEMPTION

The fact that creation of which we are a part is good and that God actively sustains it, keeps it, loves it and asked is to care for it does not negate the need for redemption. Yet so far I have seen nothing from the synod to suggest that this is part of the theology they’re playing with.

That in itself might be a very good reason why even the Amazon people’s should accept the enlightenment that Mother Queen of Heaven is worthy of veneration because of her redemptive role as Mother of God. Mother Earth May share in our redemption to a certain degree.

Why is there a church tradition for buildings? Well in part because the Mass/Divine Liturgy takes us on a journey not of this world, to reunite us to our maker despite the loss we experienced at the fall (including the fall of nature). We worship with Angles and Saints in those buildings that architecture attempts to show us heavenly dimensions! Certainly, nature (including the church Militant) can be part of this work of the Liturgy, but what I’ve heard from the synod so far is a strange earth centered idea of veneration when in fact creation must be redeemed.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:50 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:43 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 am
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:38 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 pm
+JMJ+

St Francis referred to many creatures as brother and sister.

Quite interesting that we have a Pope named after St. Francis, the Patron Saint of the ecology. Appropriate for a synod that in part deals directly with it.
Funny, did you notice that there isn’t just one “mysterious wooden figure”, but in fact there are two of them? When asked, the prefect of the Dicastery of Communications said they were probably a representation of a fertility Goddess or Mother Earth.
I did notice. It’s weird. This from a guy who has been known to take great interest in natural religions. I do see a great need for the ecology and greater concern from the Church to love creation. OTH, I know full well what it looks like when we glorify nature at the expense of the truth of it’s current state of existence.
I don’t remember Mary having a boat, either. Or a one armed man. Or a map of something or other they all move around on. I guess it’s not a service in honor of the Visitation anymore, either.

Beware syncretism. There isn’t a Madonna of the Amazon, no matter how hard one argues that’s what that statue is.

Use your head and don’t become a dupe. You don’t believe more people showed up for Trump’s inauguration than Obama’s, do you?
I’m probably a dupe, but trying to discern what I’m seeing and learning here. I am reading what people are saying critically.

I have read several people’s idea of the “theology of the earth” or whatever naturistic language they use. That because God is everywhere and in everything, that creation is some sort of revelation of love. For example, I heard from one person who said, (paraphrased) that the Amazonians accept church buildings, but don’t know why they need them. It was in reference to God being everywhere.

Honestly, I think there is great confusion in the synod as to the difference between pantheism, panentheism and paganism. They are treating the people of the Amazon like glorified zoo animals and glorifying wild animals!

Here’s what I currently think is off track about the Amazon synod:

REDEMPTION

The fact that creation of which we are a part is good and that God actively sustains it, keeps it, loves it and asked is to care for it does not negate the need for redemption. Yet so far I have seen nothing from the synod to suggest that this is part of the theology they’re playing with.

That in itself might be a very good reason why even the Amazon people’s should accept the enlightenment that Mother Queen of Heaven is worthy of veneration because of her redemptive role as Mother of God. Mother Earth May share in our redemption to a certain degree.

Why is there a church tradition for buildings? Well in part because the Mass/Divine Liturgy takes us on a journey not of this world, to reunite us to our maker despite the loss we experienced at the fall (including the fall of nature). We worship with Angles and Saints in those buildings that architecture attempts to show us heavenly dimensions! Certainly, nature (including the church Militant) can be part of this work of the Liturgy, but what I’ve heard from the synod so far is a strange earth centered idea of veneration when in fact creation must be redeemed.
First and foremost, dont be a dupe wasnt directed in anyone's direction. I respect you too much for that.

I'm terribly busy at the mo and please give me a chance to read and chew on what you say. You have a wonderful ability to re-center my thoughts and I'm grateful for it.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:40 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:43 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 am
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:38 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 pm
+JMJ+

St Francis referred to many creatures as brother and sister.

Quite interesting that we have a Pope named after St. Francis, the Patron Saint of the ecology. Appropriate for a synod that in part deals directly with it.
Funny, did you notice that there isn’t just one “mysterious wooden figure”, but in fact there are two of them? When asked, the prefect of the Dicastery of Communications said they were probably a representation of a fertility Goddess or Mother Earth.
I did notice. It’s weird. This from a guy who has been known to take great interest in natural religions. I do see a great need for the ecology and greater concern from the Church to love creation. OTH, I know full well what it looks like when we glorify nature at the expense of the truth of it’s current state of existence.
I don’t remember Mary having a boat, either. Or a one armed man. Or a map of something or other they all move around on. I guess it’s not a service in honor of the Visitation anymore, either.

Beware syncretism. There isn’t a Madonna of the Amazon, no matter how hard one argues that’s what that statue is.

Use your head and don’t become a dupe. You don’t believe more people showed up for Trump’s inauguration than Obama’s, do you?
I’m probably a dupe, but trying to discern what I’m seeing and learning here. I am reading what people are saying critically.

I have read several people’s idea of the “theology of the earth” or whatever naturistic language they use. That because God is everywhere and in everything, that creation is some sort of revelation of love. For example, I heard from one person who said, (paraphrased) that the Amazonians accept church buildings, but don’t know why they need them. It was in reference to God being everywhere.

Honestly, I think there is great confusion in the synod as to the difference between pantheism, panentheism and paganism. They are treating the people of the Amazon like glorified zoo animals and glorifying wild animals!

Here’s what I currently think is off track about the Amazon synod:

REDEMPTION

The fact that creation of which we are a part is good and that God actively sustains it, keeps it, loves it and asked is to care for it does not negate the need for redemption. Yet so far I have seen nothing from the synod to suggest that this is part of the theology they’re playing with.

That in itself might be a very good reason why even the Amazon people’s should accept the enlightenment that Mother Queen of Heaven is worthy of veneration because of her redemptive role as Mother of God. Mother Earth May share in our redemption to a certain degree.

Why is there a church tradition for buildings? Well in part because the Mass/Divine Liturgy takes us on a journey not of this world, to reunite us to our maker despite the loss we experienced at the fall (including the fall of nature). We worship with Angles and Saints in those buildings that architecture attempts to show us heavenly dimensions! Certainly, nature (including the church Militant) can be part of this work of the Liturgy, but what I’ve heard from the synod so far is a strange earth centered idea of veneration when in fact creation must be redeemed.
Just an excellent summation, and you put your finger on exactly what's been bothering me. Like you, I have zero and less than zero problems with an emphasis on our role as custodians of Creation, but I cannot get behind a nebulous theological veneration of that Creation. Creation needs redeemed.

On the same lines, I cannot shake the feeling that the indigenous are being horribly used. I find the idea that they cannot understand celibacy to be condescending in the extreme--see, these animals just can't stop sexual immorality!--and their ignorance is being used as a tool of those priests and clergymen that want to fulfill their own desires.

Likewise, I find the arguments that we might as well create new categories of clergy and ordain women as questionable. After all, when have their ever been enough priests in un Christian lands? Yet miraculous evangelization have occurred. See St Francis Xavier, for an example.

In short, I think the Amazonian peoples can teach us about ecology (to an extent, they do love some slash and burn) and we can evangelize them.

But I do tell myself this is a synod, and every whackadoodle opinion is going to be presented. I struggle with the fear that the outcome has already been decided by the Germans who've financed the whole affair, but despair and doom-saying isnt a Christian outlook.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:00 pm

+JMJ+


My exchange with the Pope was beautiful. We must pray for him. We must pray for the work of the Synod. We must pray for priests around the world. +RS

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:58 am

+JMJ+


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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:09 am

:lol:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:01 am

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Lonely voice in Brazilian episcopate speaks against synod document [In-Depth]
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Bishop José Luís Azcona, bishop emeritus of the Prelature of Marajó in Brazil. (Credit: CNBB)

SÃO PAULO — In Brazil, most of the criticism directed towards the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon came from the government, not from members of the hierarchy.

Bishop José Luís Azcona is among the minority of Brazilian prelates to raise concerns about the synod, calling the Vatican meeting’s preparatory document “weak and inconsistent.” Still, he has sought to distance his criticism from that of President Jair Bolsonaro, who he said wants to meddle in the Brazilian Church.

In the past few months, the Spanish-born Azcona, bishop emeritus of the Prelature of Marajó — located in the Amazonian State of Pará — has been vocal in his strong criticism of the working document, called the Instrumentum Laboris.

According to the bishop, the Instrumentum Laboris excluded the Crucified Christ when dealing with central themes such as the creation, cultures, dialogue, interculturality, pastoral dialogue, and hope.

“It’s a worrisome absence, pastorally and ecclesiastically cowardly, prostrated to the prevalent secularism and with an effect on the heart of the Church and of the synod,” he told Crux.

[…]

However, Azcona insists he is not against the synod, just against the Instrumentum Laboris, and his criticism “does not reach the pope.”

“On the contrary, I explicitly make citations of the Holy Father that directly oppose the Instrumentum Laboris and I accuse it of not having assimilated in its main affirmations the encyclical Laudato Si’,” he told Crux.

Azcona said the working document misses the main significance of the concept of “ecological conversion, distorting its sense and deviating it to aspects that are important, but are not essential in the conception and reality of the ecological conversion.”

“The same is valid for the deficient use of the concept of integral ecology,” he added.

[…]

For his part, Azcona accused Bolsonaro and his aids of “Josephinism,” a reference to the 18th century Austrian Emperor Joseph II, who sought to subordinate the Church to the state.

“The president forgets the Church has the divine power — which was not conferred by and is not dependent on the civil power — to preach the Gospel and all its consequences in society and even in politics,” the bishop said.

Azcona said the attempts of the government to “get into spaces strange to its competence” comes from an “anachronistic and evident immobility.”

Despite the polarization in both the Church and society in Brazil, the bishop said he isn’t anti-Francis or pro-Bolsonaro.

His only concern is with the Instrumentum Laboris itself, which he said “makes the evangelization of the world unfeasible, because it’s not able to incarnate Jesus Christ’s Gospel in today’s history, cultures, nations, and religions.”

“I do not consider myself to be an ‘opponent’ of the pope or of the synod. On the contrary, I think the synod is a singular opportunity in the history of the Church to deal with themes that never affected so much the whole humankind. It is, therefore, a singular occasion to announce the salvational gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ,” the bishop said.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:01 pm

Synod document strong on ecology, weak on ecclesiology.
The defense of the Amazon is very important, Urosa said, “and thank God the Church has taken a very valuable initiative” to protect it. “However, the problem of the Amazon from the ecclesiological point of view has not been well addressed.”
Moreover, he argued, most of those who speak of the synod “touch only on the ecological and socio-cultural aspects, and very little on the ecclesiological and pastoral aspects. There is an imbalance, because the main work of the Church is evangelization, bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, to all populations.”
After much talk about the situation in Venezuela. . .
The ecological aspect is interesting and makes a necessary defense of the Amazonian territory, the environment and the Amazonian populations that are not only indigenous. They are being subjected to an extractive exploitation of raw material that is damaging the ecology of the region which has an impact on the entire world. An unfortunate fact has been the terrible fires that occurred this year. The defense of the Amazon is very important, and thank God the Church has taken a very valuable initiative.
However, the problem of the Amazon from the ecclesiological point of view has not been well addressed. Moreover, most of those who speak of the synod touch only on the ecological and socio-cultural aspects, and very little on the ecclesiological and pastoral aspects.
There is an imbalance, because the main work of the Church is evangelization, bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, to all populations, both the indigenous and the urban population in the Amazon - there are millions living in cities like Manaus, Belen de Para, Iquitos, not only the indigenous in isolated areas.
These people require a direct, explicit, open evangelization of Jesus Christ. And that is little touched on in the document.
The document presents an almost idyllic Amazonian population, the perfect man, the noble savage of Jean-Jacques Rousseau. They are normal people, human beings with the same problems, virtues and defects as all people in the whole world. And to them too we have to bring the Gospel.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:05 am

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Cleon » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:49 am


Hahahaha.
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I have no skin in this game, but that was classic.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:14 am

+JMJ+


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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:51 pm

Cleon wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:49 am

Hahahaha.
Image
I have no skin in this game, but that was classic.
Yes, I noticed that too. It seems to be the way folks respond to a lot these days.

The thing is, I haven’t heard a single churchman suggest that destroying the rainforests is good or that there isn’t a problem to be addressed there. To the contrary, everyone seems to be in agreement on that except the particular players doing the burning.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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