Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

For those deep thinkers out there.
User avatar
smokadoro
Tribe Member
Tribe Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:33 pm

Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by smokadoro » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 am

From another recent thread:
a friend wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:47 pm
The matter of the conflict (or not) between science and scripture (young earth/old earth, evolution, etc.) is at its root a question regarding the matter of biblical inerrancy, an issue that was/is central to Protestant Fundamentalist Christianity.
For clarity, the biblical inerrancy angle is only at the root between young earth and evolutionary creationists, those who believe God kicked things off at the very beginning but has been hands-off ever since (the ultimate plate spinner). They believe that mindless evolution has resulted in the abundance of life, in agreement with the atheistic scientism community. Where the standard scientific narrative and biblical text conflict, they would take the position that the Bible got the scientific details wrong, thus do not uphold biblical inerrancy.

Biblical inerrancy is a straw man argument with respect to the old earth perspective. It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the old earth position. I as an old earth creationist believe the Bible to be fully inerrant, and I believe we are taking the biblical text more literally and less out of context than the young earth perspective. I'd be more than happy to flesh out the details, but to sum it up I believe both the following statements are true at the same time:
  1. The Bible is the inspired word of God and is completely free from errors in every topic on which it speaks.
  2. The universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old, the Earth is approximately 4.2 billion years old, and God created all of it in six literal "yom".
The difference between young earth and old earth perspectives is one of differing biblical interpretation, not more pure/less pure stances on biblical inerrancy.
Do not say "I agree," "I disagree" or "I suspend judgment" until you can say "I understand." ~Mortimer Adler

User avatar
Stanley76
Deputy Sheriff of Mayberry
Deputy Sheriff of Mayberry
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:50 pm
Location: Pungo River NC

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Stanley76 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:37 am

Sticking my toe in here. God is the beginning and the end. He said, "I am". So He always is, always has been and always will be. Maybe time itself applies only to this universe (realm) He created and the span of time is.....? Nevermind, I just gave myself a headache.
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

User avatar
Goose55
King of Kraut
King of Kraut
Posts: 9883
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Goose55 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:56 am

Whats helpful to me about the errancy or inerrancy of scripture are the words of Jesus. Since He is the Word made flesh and a Christians entire faith and trust is based upon that, that can not be a straw man's argument. Either He is who He said He was, or He isn't.

So, here are some quite vital words of Jesus regarding how reliable His words are, found in John 14:25, 26:

"These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

Personally I am not at all troubled about the age of the Earth or how creation took place. It is enough for me that Jesus refered to the event/s and I can count what He said trustworthy.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
FredS
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Posts: 22954
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:03 am

Speaking of straw man fallacies, you laid out some pretty large ones at the outset of your case.
smokadoro wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 am
For clarity, the biblical inerrancy angle is only at the root between young earth and evolutionary creationists, those who believe God kicked things off at the very beginning but has been hands-off ever since (the ultimate plate spinner).
No, the topic of Biblical inerrancy can arise in the discussion of a thousand other topics and can even be considered the "root" of many. Female Priests? Capital punishment? Just wars? Same sex marriage? Ornate church buildings? Environmental stewardship? Papal authority? Take your pick. The Bible speaks to each topic yet Christians still debate and struggle in those, and many other, areas.

smokadoro wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 am
They believe that mindless evolution has resulted in the abundance of life, in agreement with the atheistic scientism community. Where the standard scientific narrative and biblical text conflict, they would take the position that the Bible got the scientific details wrong, thus do not uphold biblical inerrancy.
Who, exactly, believes in "mindless" evolution? Do you use that descriptor because you think evolution is an impossible accident of genetics, or because it happened outside the mind of an intelligent Creator, or something else?
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
Del
Mr. Hot Legs
Mr. Hot Legs
Posts: 39895
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Del » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am

The Fundamentalists are doing to biblical faith what the political Leftists are doing to culture and life: They are changing the definitions of words.

For example, gender used to mean "biologically male or female."

Likewise, inerrancy used to mean that the Sacred Scriptures are "truly inspired by God and faithfully handed down to us." We understood that Sacred Scripture is a collection of many genres -- books of history, mythology, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, and inspired songs.
==================================================

New problems result whenever a self-appointed authority changes the interpretation of key words, such as "gender" and "inerrant."

Gender has been redefined [by no specific authority] to mean "however one feels about oneself, gender-wise, without regard to biology."

We have rules and laws in our culture to ensure that men and women were treated fairly -- in workplaces, education, sports competitions. When these rules are applied to the new gender-feelings -- setting abnormal ideologies equal to the norm -- it tends to destroy the normal order of gender in our society. The reality of gender gets lost. Thus we have biological males setting world records in female sporting contests, which is ludicrous.

In the same vein, the Fundamentalists [by no specific authority] have redefined inerrancy to mean "all Books of Sacred Scripture are literal and historic in genre."

As a result, the reality of poetic truths [such as found in Genesis 1] are lost on the Fundamentalists. Meanwhile they build Creationist Museums. They labor to dismiss hard realities, like the Big Bang and the fossil record. It seems that their God is a lying demon, one who plants false fossils in the ground to "test our faith."

This hurts our great commission to spread the truth of the Gospel to the world. It makes religious faith looks as foolish and bizarre as the new gender ideologies.
==================================================

The solution is for common-sense folks to ignore the fake narratives. The hard part is to teach our kids how to discern the truth in a world full of professional and convincing liars.
REMEMBER THE KAVANAUGH!

You can safely ignore those California warnings. Just sayin'...

User avatar
FredS
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Posts: 22954
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:45 am

I don't understand what the hell is going on today, but I'm finding myself largely in agreement with our Catholic guys.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
Thunktank
Needs to smoke more
Needs to smoke more
Posts: 22711
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: 471 Km from the London Bridge

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Thunktank » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:54 am

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:45 am
I don't understand what in heaven is going on today, but I'm finding myself largely in agreement with our Catholic guys.
Fixed it for you. :D
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda Image

User avatar
FredS
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Posts: 22954
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:58 am

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:54 am
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:45 am
I don't understand what in heaven is going on today, but I'm finding myself largely in agreement with our Catholic guys.
Fixed it for you. :D
That's worth a Jesus juke touchdown and the two point conversion.

Image
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
durangopipe
Under-secretary to the Minister of Pipe Breaking
Under-secretary to the Minister of Pipe Breaking
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:58 pm
Location: Southwest Colorado

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by durangopipe » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:15 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:45 am
I don't understand what the hell is going on today, but I'm finding myself largely in agreement with our Catholic guys.
Scary, isn’t it!
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 30161
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by coco » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:38 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am
...As a result, the reality of poetic truths [such as found in Genesis 1] are lost on the Fundamentalists. Meanwhile they build Creationist Museums. They labor to dismiss hard realities, like the Big Bang and the fossil record. It seems that their God is a lying demon, one who plants false fossils in the ground to "test our faith."
You could strengthen your arguments in the future by avoiding:
- Straw man arguments
- Ad hominems
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 30161
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by coco » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:46 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am
The Fundamentalists are doing to biblical faith what the political Leftists are doing to culture and life: They are changing the definitions of words.

For example, gender used to mean "biologically male or female."

Likewise, inerrancy used to mean that the Sacred Scriptures are "truly inspired by God and faithfully handed down to us." We understood that Sacred Scripture is a collection of many genres -- books of history, mythology, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, and inspired songs.
While a Fundamentalist/inerrantist might want to add to this definition (like adding, perhaps, "free from error"), I can't imagine a Fundamentalist/inerrantist disagreeing with this definition. Can you provide an example of a Fundamentalist/inerrantist who does not agree with this definition? This should be an easy task, presuming that Fundamentalists/inerrantists distort language as often as Leftists.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 30161
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by coco » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:49 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am
In the same vein, the Fundamentalists [by no specific authority] have redefined inerrancy to mean "all Books of Sacred Scripture are literal and historic in genre."
Straw man?
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
Del
Mr. Hot Legs
Mr. Hot Legs
Posts: 39895
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Del » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:54 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:38 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am
...As a result, the reality of poetic truths [such as found in Genesis 1] are lost on the Fundamentalists. Meanwhile they build Creationist Museums. They labor to dismiss hard realities, like the Big Bang and the fossil record. It seems that their God is a lying demon, one who plants false fossils in the ground to "test our faith."
You could strengthen your arguments in the future by avoiding:
- Straw man arguments
- Ad hominems
Fair enough.

I've heard that some creationists have gone to great effort to reconcile the fossil record with the six-day account. I haven't studied any of their work, but they seem to understand that the astrophysics and fossils have to be real data of some sort, in order to avoid calling God a lying trickster.
=======================

There is no evidence that Jesus and the Apostles believed in a literal six-day creation. But there is ample evidence in the Scripture that they believed in the sin of Adam.

I'd like to see the Fundamentalists bend their focus and effort toward the Second Creation Story of Genesis 2 & 3.

- For one, I think there is fruitful evidence in mitochondrial DNA that humanity is descended from one mother.

- For two, I think the secular culture would benefit from our renewed focus on sin and our fallen nature.
REMEMBER THE KAVANAUGH!

You can safely ignore those California warnings. Just sayin'...

User avatar
Del
Mr. Hot Legs
Mr. Hot Legs
Posts: 39895
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Del » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:00 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:46 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am
The Fundamentalists are doing to biblical faith what the political Leftists are doing to culture and life: They are changing the definitions of words.

For example, gender used to mean "biologically male or female."

Likewise, inerrancy used to mean that the Sacred Scriptures are "truly inspired by God and faithfully handed down to us." We understood that Sacred Scripture is a collection of many genres -- books of history, mythology, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, and inspired songs.
While a Fundamentalist/inerrantist might want to add to this definition (like adding, perhaps, "free from error"), I can't imagine a Fundamentalist/inerrantist disagreeing with this definition. Can you provide an example of a Fundamentalist/inerrantist who does not agree with this definition? This should be an easy task, presuming that Fundamentalists/inerrantists distort language as often as Leftists.
I don't know any of these guys' names. So perhaps I am criticizing a secular straw man image of a Fundamentalist, rather than the real thing.

All I know is that the Bible is inerrant... And that life, the universe, and everything were NOT created in a literal six days.

So the meaning of inerrant must be larger than the creationist's interpretation of it.
REMEMBER THE KAVANAUGH!

You can safely ignore those California warnings. Just sayin'...

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 30161
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by coco » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:26 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:00 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:46 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:47 am
The Fundamentalists are doing to biblical faith what the political Leftists are doing to culture and life: They are changing the definitions of words.

For example, gender used to mean "biologically male or female."

Likewise, inerrancy used to mean that the Sacred Scriptures are "truly inspired by God and faithfully handed down to us." We understood that Sacred Scripture is a collection of many genres -- books of history, mythology, poetry, wisdom, prophecy, and inspired songs.
While a Fundamentalist/inerrantist might want to add to this definition (like adding, perhaps, "free from error"), I can't imagine a Fundamentalist/inerrantist disagreeing with this definition. Can you provide an example of a Fundamentalist/inerrantist who does not agree with this definition? This should be an easy task, presuming that Fundamentalists/inerrantists distort language as often as Leftists.
I don't know any of these guys' names. So perhaps I am criticizing a secular straw man image of a Fundamentalist, rather than the real thing.

All I know is that the Bible is inerrant... And that life, the universe, and everything were NOT created in a literal six days.

So the meaning of inerrant must be larger than the creationist's interpretation of it.
I have very little contact with Fundamentalists. I have much more with inerrantists in general. I don't identify myself in the former camp, though I would in the latter. In other words, I would say that Genesis 1-2 are free from error, etc. I do not pretend to have every answer for every question about this subject.

I know that there are problems if one wants to consider Genesis 1-2 as poetic in nature, including:
- There are zero examples of Hebrew poetic conventions in these chapters.
- These chapters contain numerous uses of the Hebrew vav consecutive, which signals the historical genre.

I also admit that there is a possibility that God might have treated time as a dependent variable rather than an independent one during the act of creation, such that time itself had a rate of change. He is certainly big enough to do so.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
Goose55
King of Kraut
King of Kraut
Posts: 9883
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:44 pm
Location: Southern Arizona, U.S.A.

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by Goose55 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:41 pm

The thread has taken flight to realms unknown
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

User avatar
coco
Uniquely Duggish
Uniquely Duggish
Posts: 30161
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by coco » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:16 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:41 pm
The thread has taken flight to realms unknown
Welcome to CPS. You might want to post a bio.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
"No more signatures that quote other CPS members." - Thunk

User avatar
smokadoro
Tribe Member
Tribe Member
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:33 pm

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by smokadoro » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:30 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:03 am
Speaking of straw man fallacies, you laid out some pretty large ones at the outset of your case.
Seems I touched a nerve! :(
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:03 am
smokadoro wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 am
For clarity, the biblical inerrancy angle is only at the root between young earth and evolutionary creationists, those who believe God kicked things off at the very beginning but has been hands-off ever since (the ultimate plate spinner).
No, the topic of Biblical inerrancy can arise in the discussion of a thousand other topics and can even be considered the "root" of many. Female Priests? Capital punishment? Just wars? Same sex marriage? Ornate church buildings? Environmental stewardship? Papal authority? Take your pick. The Bible speaks to each topic yet Christians still debate and struggle in those, and many other, areas.
I see where there's a bit of confusion, and I'm sorry for the lack of clarity. Someone else asserted that biblical inerrancy is at the root of [ A, B, C ]. My statement was merely that it's only at the root of [ A, C ]. I did not intend any statement about [ D, E, F... ].

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:03 am
smokadoro wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 am
They believe that mindless evolution has resulted in the abundance of life, in agreement with the atheistic scientism community. Where the standard scientific narrative and biblical text conflict, they would take the position that the Bible got the scientific details wrong, thus do not uphold biblical inerrancy.
Who, exactly, believes in "mindless" evolution? Do you use that descriptor because you think evolution is an impossible accident of genetics, or because it happened outside the mind of an intelligent Creator, or something else?
Perhaps it's worth making the distinction here between old-earth creationists and evolutionary creationists. The distinction is most easily explained when there appears to be a conflict between the Bible and what science is telling us. Young-earth creationists gravitate toward the Bible being right no matter what, and that science either gets it wrong or (fill in the blank). Evolutionary creationists gravitate toward science being correct and the Bible must've gotten it wrong (thus, the biblical inerrancy issue). However, there is a third, compatible-ist (sp?) position called old-earth creationism which asserts that both are correct and our interpretation of one or the other (or both) is where the correction needs to take place.

Many young-earth creationists have a hard time distinguishing between old-earth creationists and evolutionary creationists, and thus group the two together.
Last edited by smokadoro on Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Do not say "I agree," "I disagree" or "I suspend judgment" until you can say "I understand." ~Mortimer Adler

User avatar
FredS
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Patriarch of All Shirkdom
Posts: 22954
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:32 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:41 pm
The thread has taken flight to realms unknown
A joint or 4 fingers of whiskey helps. Or not.

Either way, it's better than being here sober.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
JimVH
Eddie and Alex's brother
Eddie and Alex's brother
Posts: 24417
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here as soon as I could.
Contact:

Re: Biblical inerrancy with respect to the creation narratives

Post by JimVH » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:36 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:32 pm
Either way, it's better than being here sober.
<Cut and paste in almost every other thread>
"The days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days." Ray Wylie Hubbard

Post Reply