Our Lady of Guadalupe

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Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:15 pm

Del wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:Can't we all just say "different strokes for different folks" and get along with it? Perhaps I say that only because I'm liberal.
When a fine fellow like ATLIV suggests that God is offended by the statues and icons, he does so out of concern for the salvation of his Old Faith friends. It would be uncharitable for him not to mention this.

We are not offended by his comments, even if we feel compelled to disagree and explain.
While ATLiV's intent might have been as stated, he isn't the first (nor will he be the last) to have voiced concerns as to iconography. My response wasn't entirely directed as those who truly worry about the worship styles of others running afoul of God's will, but to those who would condemn iconography as unquestionably sinful.

Some of the worship styles of other Christian cultures would boggle the minds of American Christians -- especially some Protestants -- but who's to say that repeating the same chorus ad nauseum is any more or less sinful than retreating to an altar to interact with God? He never said, "these are the Holy Spirit's office hours, and here is Its address, subject to change."

One man carries a reproduction of St. Juan's cloak through the streets, saying "praise God for His revelation at Guadalupe," whereas another imagines the words of John 3:16, thinking, "praise God for His salvation at Calvary" -- not appreciably different, in my book.

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Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:21 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship.
That's an odd thought, considering that God devoted much of the Pentateuch to describe the proper ways in which the Israelites were to worship Him...
But the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn upon Jesus's death, and the Holy Spirit no longer resides in the Temple (according to many Protestants, of course). If our altar is an altar of stone, is that different from our altar being our bodies?

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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:21 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:My response wasn't entirely directed as those who truly worry about the worship styles of others running afoul of God's will, but to those who would condemn iconography as unquestionably sinful.
I don't think I've questioned the worship of any churches/denominations or condemned iconography as unquestionably sinful.

I think that inconography can easily lead individuals to worship and/or have faith in icons rather than in God Himself - However, it's not like Christians who worship apart from iconography have perfected worship... There are problems in evey church/denomination/sect...

--My original response was to TheImpudent's post alone - and was not addressed against or as a commentary upon iconography, Orthodoxy, Roman Catholocism, etc....
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Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:21 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
TNLawPiper wrote:Praise God for the Lady of Guadalupe, because many see the one true God in her and through her.
Now there's a simpering, weak-kneed, spongey, wavering, indecisive, watery, flaccid, dilute, tepid, vacillating, milquetoast, insipid liberal platitude, right there.
Do you agree with my statement?

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Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:22 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:My response wasn't entirely directed as those who truly worry about the worship styles of others running afoul of God's will, but to those who would condemn iconography as unquestionably sinful.
I don't think I've questioned the worship of any churches/denominations or condemned iconography as unquestionably sinful.

I think that inconography can easily lead individuals to worship and/or have faith in icons rather than in God Himself - However, it's not like Christians who worship apart from iconography have perfected worship... There are problems in evey church/denomination/sect...

--My original response was to TheImpudent's post alone - and was not addressed against or as a commentary upon iconography, Orthodoxy, Roman Catholocism, etc....
And my response, as I figured that I implied, wasn't directed towards you.

Del's just a trouble maker!
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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:24 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship.
That's an odd thought, considering that God devoted much of the Pentateuch to describe the proper ways in which the Israelites were to worship Him...
But the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn upon Jesus's death, and the Holy Spirit no longer resides in the Temple (according to many Protestants, of course). If our altar is an altar of stone, is that different from our altar being our bodies?
Sounds to me like your question answers itself!

An altar of stone is radically different from the altar of one's heart. I'm sure one could make a very lawerly sound and valid argument to equate them... But if an altar of stone is just as valid, why did God abolish the Temple worship system and rend the curtain?
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Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:28 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote: I look at the Israelites in the OT - and one of their main struggles was worshiping idols and adopting the gods of the cultures around them. We still adopt the gods of the cultures around us (materialism, etc.) - what makes us think that we have matured beyond falling prey to the worship of idols and graven images in place of God?
Well.... We have the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and 2000 years of living in His Church. We are quite a bit wiser than the foolishness of the Israelites in the period of the Kings.

Jeremiah prophesied that we who live in the New Covenant would be wiser than the Israelites:
Jeremiah 31 wrote: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
This is why modern Christians are not tempted to fall into idolatry. (We still fall into apostacy, though!)

Another benefit of this New Covenant: We who are baptized in Christ have had our sins forgiven and forgotten!.... we will stand judgment only for the sins we commit after we come to know Christ. This is why the sins of fathers no longer fall upon their sons, as happened in the Old Covenant (see Jer 31:27-30)
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:30 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship.
That's an odd thought, considering that God devoted much of the Pentateuch to describe the proper ways in which the Israelites were to worship Him...
But the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn upon Jesus's death, and the Holy Spirit no longer resides in the Temple (according to many Protestants, of course). If our altar is an altar of stone, is that different from our altar being our bodies?
Sounds to me like your question answers itself!

An altar of stone is radically different from the altar of one's heart. I'm sure one could make a very lawerly sound and valid argument to equate them... But if an altar of stone is just as valid, why did God abolish the Temple worship system and rend the curtain?
Isn't a modern altar of stone just a manifestation of one's heart?

Whether one believes that he MUST use that altar to experience God is a different question, but I don't like those Catholic v. Protestant free-for-all debates.

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Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:37 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote: An altar of stone is radically different from the altar of one's heart. I'm sure one could make a very lawerly sound and valid argument to equate them... But if an altar of stone is just as valid, why did God abolish the Temple worship system and rend the curtain?
You are full of questions tonight!

The altar of stone is not so different from the altar of one's heart.... in the Divine Liturgy/Mass, the Living Christ makes Himself present at both -- first on the stone altar, so that we can then receive Him into our hearts (and tongue, teeth and stomach!)

I can't prove it from the Bible, but I trust that Jesus also enters the hearts of Evangelicals who do not have a sacramental worship.

However, the strictly biblical way says that Jesus gives His Flesh and Blood to us as real food and drink, so that we might have eternal life.
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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:40 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship.
That's an odd thought, considering that God devoted much of the Pentateuch to describe the proper ways in which the Israelites were to worship Him...
But the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn upon Jesus's death, and the Holy Spirit no longer resides in the Temple (according to many Protestants, of course). If our altar is an altar of stone, is that different from our altar being our bodies?
Sounds to me like your question answers itself!

An altar of stone is radically different from the altar of one's heart. I'm sure one could make a very lawerly sound and valid argument to equate them... But if an altar of stone is just as valid, why did God abolish the Temple worship system and rend the curtain?
Isn't a modern altar of stone just a manifestation of one's heart?

Whether one believes that he MUST use that altar to experience God is a different question, but I don't like those Catholic v. Protestant free-for-all debates.
I'm sure one could successfully argue that a modern altar of stone is just a manifestation of one's heart.

After all, we still have altars in churches of stone, wood, steel, etc... The worship of carved images or use of images in worship is quite different.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about not liking Catholic v. Protestant free-for-all debates. You've made yourself quite the willing participant...

There are many threads here on CPS that I don't participate in for any one of several reasons: I don't know the subject, or the thread takes upon a hostile and/or unhealthy tone.... I made a recommendatio for a couple of guys to cool it just the other day, and posted some scripture.

However, I've learned a lot from our discussions and debates here at CPS, and believe that God is making me a more informed and well-rounded Christian as a result. I think it does us all well to see our beliefs challenged, strengthened, reformed, and occassionally altered or changed. I am seeking God's truth in All things.
Last edited by ATexanLostinVirginia on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:45 pm

Del wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote: I look at the Israelites in the OT - and one of their main struggles was worshiping idols and adopting the gods of the cultures around them. We still adopt the gods of the cultures around us (materialism, etc.) - what makes us think that we have matured beyond falling prey to the worship of idols and graven images in place of God?
Well.... We have the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and 2000 years of living in His Church. We are quite a bit wiser than the foolishness of the Israelites in the period of the Kings.

Jeremiah prophesied that we who live in the New Covenant would be wiser than the Israelites:
Jeremiah 31 wrote: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
This is why modern Christians are not tempted to fall into idolatry. (We still fall into apostacy, though!)

Another benefit of this New Covenant: We who are baptized in Christ have had our sins forgiven and forgotten!.... we will stand judgment only for the sins we commit after we come to know Christ. This is why the sins of fathers no longer fall upon their sons, as happened in the Old Covenant (see Jer 31:27-30)
I think this is a very good and fair argument!

It is certain that the knowledge of Christ gives us an advantage of those who came before us.

However, I think that mankind is just as susceptible to sin and corruption now, as before Christ. I think the Bible provides example after example of the failings of men, whom God still used - because they not only show the power and Providence of God - but b/c we are like them, and they are like us.

There failings should serve as a reminder and encouragment for us to stay strong, and avoid their shortcomings. However, by the same token - when we fail it's nice to know that God has been using men who fail throughout the history of the world...
+1836+

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I smoke my pipe and worship God."
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Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:51 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
ATexanLostinVirginia wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:I just don't imagine that God cares how we worship Him, as long as He remains our only worship.
That's an odd thought, considering that God devoted much of the Pentateuch to describe the proper ways in which the Israelites were to worship Him...
But the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn upon Jesus's death, and the Holy Spirit no longer resides in the Temple (according to many Protestants, of course). If our altar is an altar of stone, is that different from our altar being our bodies?
Sounds to me like your question answers itself!

An altar of stone is radically different from the altar of one's heart. I'm sure one could make a very lawerly sound and valid argument to equate them... But if an altar of stone is just as valid, why did God abolish the Temple worship system and rend the curtain?
Isn't a modern altar of stone just a manifestation of one's heart?

Whether one believes that he MUST use that altar to experience God is a different question, but I don't like those Catholic v. Protestant free-for-all debates.
I'm sure one could successfully argue that a modern altar of stone is just a manifestation of one's heart.

After all, we still have altars in churches of stone, wood, steel, etc... The worship of carved images or use of images in worship in quite different.
Even the cross hanging in the baptismal pool can be mistaken as something powerful or holy, though. It's all in one's perspective.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about not liking Catholic v. Protestant free-for-all debates. You've made yourself quite the willing participant...
I was referring to the all-encompassing Eucharist/authority/style/tradition v. priesthood of the believer/Scripture/independence debates. Specific points are fine, but the broad, overarching points will never be conceded by either side.
There are many threads here on CPS that I don't participate in for any one of several reasons: I don't know the subject, or the thread takes upon a hostile and/or unhealthy tone.... I made a recommendatio for a couple of guys to cool it just the other day, and posted some scripture.

However, I've learned a lot from our discussions and debates here at CPS, and believe that God is making me a more informed and well-rounded Christian as a result. I think it does us all well to see our beliefs challenged, strengthened, reformed, and occassionally altered or changed. I am seeking God's truth in All things.
I didn't have any problem with your original post! Del tied the two together, whereas I was speaking more broadly, and, like you, searching for God's truth. I learn more by asking questions than by pure research -- it's the Socratic method side of me.

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Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:51 pm

TNLawPiper wrote: Isn't a modern altar of stone just a manifestation of one's heart?
The Lord's Supper ties the Passover/Last Supper with Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary and His Resurrection, and makes this present for us.

the stone altar ties Jesus' sacrifice to all of the Old Testament sacrifices and sin offerings, and fulfills them for us.

the stone altar is symbolic.... a priest can celebrate Mass on the hood of a jeep next to a battlefield, if needed, and Jesus will still be present.

But if someone insists that there should never be an altar in a Christian worship.... he is really saying that he doesn't agree with what the altar symbolizes. He is probably rejecting the whole concept of sacramental theology.
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Post by Thunktank » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:54 pm

People can abuse good things, it happens all the time. That doesn't mean we get rid of the good, it means that we point out the abuse and avoid it. Icons were abused in certain ways by many backwater Christians and this gave fuel to the Muslim fire to rid the church of them. This was taken care of in the 8th century however. In the end, the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Roman Pope saved Orthodoxy against the iconoclasts (perpetuated mostly by Muslims).
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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:58 pm

TNLawPiper wrote: Even the cross hanging in the baptismal pool can be mistaken as something powerful or holy, though. It's all in one's perspective.
I agree. And I've heard it argued against the use of Large crosses in baptismal pools, to avoid leading congregants to worship crosses rather than Christ... However, like I said earlier - such a line of thinking leads to some really empty and drab sanctuaries.

I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...

I was referring to the all-encompassing Eucharist/authority/style/tradition v. priesthood of the believer/Scripture/independence debates. Specific points are fine, but the broad, overarching points will never be conceded by either side.
I can see the wisdom in avoiding these debates, I wouldn't be quick to disagree with you here. Yet, even in these debates/threads/discussion I've been thrilled to learn more, see different POV's, etc. - so long as the discussion doesn't turn hostile...
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Post by Del » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:59 pm

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote: I think this is a very good and fair argument!

It is certain that the knowledge of Christ gives us an advantage of those who came before us.

However, I think that mankind is just as susceptible to sin and corruption now, as before Christ. I think the Bible provides example after example of the failings of men, whom God still used - because they not only show the power and Providence of God - but b/c we are like them, and they are like us.

There failings should serve as a reminder and encouragment for us to stay strong, and avoid their shortcomings. However, by the same token - when we fail it's nice to know that God has been using men who fail throughout the history of the world...
I've been studying the prophets pretty hard this weekend.... writing a paper.

I am disturbed by the number of times the Lord condemned the sacrificing of innocent children to Molech. In this regard.... we have not learned our lesson. We make the demon-worshipping Aztecs look like angels, by comparison.

But at least we are not tempted to worship idols anymore, in the sense of anthropomorphic gods. Jesus gave us a higher bar to hurdle -- "Where your treasure lies, there your heart lies also." We make idols out of concepts like "money & wealth," "freedom & choice," "leisure & sport," and so on.

A fellow with a devotion to Mary is in much less danger of idolatry than some guys' devotion to the Packers.
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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:00 am

Thunktank wrote:People can abuse good things, it happens all the time. That doesn't mean we get rid of the good, it means that we point out the abuse and avoid it.
+1

I agree, and wouldn't mean to convey otherwise.
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Post by Thunktank » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:03 am

ATexanLostinVirginia wrote: I certainly wouldn't argue against the use of any and all imagery! I'm not positive I'd argue against the use of imagery at all... I am still very uncomfortable with praying to images, statues, etc... as I see that as a step more quickly leading to their worship, rather than just employing images as symbols, etc...
For one thing please understand that we don't ever use the words "praying to" in regards to the icons themselves. We always say "praying with icons" while remembering that the image itself (or the wood it is on) is not what we are venerating or praying to but rather the person it depicts.
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Post by ATexanLostinVirginia » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:06 am

Del wrote:I am disturbed by the number of times the Lord condemned the sacrificing of innocent children to Molech. In this regard.... we have not learned our lesson. We make the demon-worshipping Aztecs look like angels, by comparison.

But at least we are not tempted to worship idols anymore, in the sense of anthropomorphic gods. Jesus gave us a higher bar to hurdle -- "Where your treasure lies, there your heart lies also." We make idols out of concepts like "money & wealth," "freedom & choice," "leisure & sport," and so on.
I agree, as I stated earlier!

We've made killing children more acceptable, hidden, and less public - but it is still just as rampant and gruesome!

I think our modern idols are more subtle and ensnaring than traditional idols. We worship sports teams, homes, materialistic possessions and goals - all within the cultural norms of success and goodness... The grand majority of those whose lives are prostituted on serving multiple gods are convinced of that they are Christians - when in all reality they are only using church as another tool to achieve their fleshly desires. If God will help them achieve their goal, so be it, if not - oh well...
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Post by Del » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:11 am

Thunktank wrote:People can abuse good things, it happens all the time. That doesn't mean we get rid of the good, it means that we point out the abuse and avoid it. Icons were abused in certain ways by many backwater Christians and this gave fuel to the Muslim fire to rid the church of them. This was taken care of in the 8th century however. In the end, the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Roman Pope saved Orthodoxy against the iconoclasts (perpetuated mostly by Muslims).
I don't know the details.... but I believe some quirk of history prevented the Eastern bishops from being able to attend. (Perhaps they were under seige?)

Anyhow, in 787 AD, at the Second Council of Nicaea, Christianity determined that it was right and proper for Christians to have sacred art and images in our churches.... and that their presence was not idolatry nor a violation of the 1st/2cd Commandment (depending on how you count them).
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