Bible Code

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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:30 am

Kerdy wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:11 am
The code to the Bible is one must actually read it.
The Bible really comes to light and fullness when a guy actually reads it! -- and reads it in the brightness of Apostolic faith.

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Re: Bible Code

Post by arank87 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:12 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:11 am
The code to the Bible is one must actually read it.
True.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:18 pm

arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:32 am
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:11 am
arank87 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:13 pm
In the code does it say “you are a sinner and Jesus Christ died on a cross to save you from eternal damnation?” If not there’s no value in it.
1) Jesus told us a whole lot more than that.

2) Jesus did a greater thing on the cross than just to pay for our sins.

3) There are no codes or hidden secrets to discover in the Bible. The teaching of the Apostles (including the Scriptures they carried and wrote) is the totality of everything God wants all of us to know.

However, Scripture is very rich, and meditating on the Scripture does help us to understand God's revelation more deeply. But there is nothing new to discover that the Apostles did not know. Nothing like millennialism or a pre-tribulational rapture. And certainly nothing hidden in a crossword code of text.
Can you explain #2? I’m not following.
Oh dear.....

Let me explain myself a bit, first:

I've been on CPS for nearly 12 years and nearly 40,000 posts. The first several years (and several thousand posts), I spent hundreds of hours striving, more or less, to be a good Evangelical Catholic. I was urging all of the Bible Christians to embrace the rest of the Gospel Good News that Jesus gave us -- to reclaim what what stolen from you by Protestant revolt.

So when old-time friends like Joshoowa and tuttle say, "I can't believe that I'm agreeing with Del" -- that's what they're talking about.

I wasn't the only Evangelical Catholic at the time. And there were even a handful of devout Bible guys who got excited about the Apostolic faith and decided to learn more. Those were good times.

About half-way through the Obama era, the secular world ramped up their efforts to shut down Christians. Hobby Lobby and the Little Sisters of the Poor got dragged into the Supreme Court for wanting to live their faith in the real world. Not-Marriage got redefined as marriage, and then gender got undefined entirely. The Christian factions here became united into an effort to save our culture.

I kinda miss having the liberty to argue about religion again.
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I'll have to fix a drink and light a pipe, and work on a concise answer to your question. Stand by!
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:57 pm

arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:32 am
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:11 am
arank87 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:13 pm
In the code does it say “you are a sinner and Jesus Christ died on a cross to save you from eternal damnation?” If not there’s no value in it.
1) Jesus told us a whole lot more than that.

2) Jesus did a greater thing on the cross than just to pay for our sins.

3) There are no codes or hidden secrets to discover in the Bible. The teaching of the Apostles (including the Scriptures they carried and wrote) is the totality of everything God wants all of us to know.

However, Scripture is very rich, and meditating on the Scripture does help us to understand God's revelation more deeply. But there is nothing new to discover that the Apostles did not know. Nothing like millennialism or a pre-tribulational rapture. And certainly nothing hidden in a crossword code of text.
Can you explain #2? I’m not following.
Okay, Brother Alex. Here goes!

We are speaking of sin and salvation. So let's be clear of what we are talking about:

Sin is our willful disobedience, which separates us from relationship with God. Once lost, we cannot earn God's friendship back. Restoration of that relationship can only be a gift from God.

Salvation is an act of God which restores our relationship with Him.

Adam and Eve enjoyed friendship with God. They walked in the Garden and talked with Him. They lost that intimate friendship by their disobedience. And having lost it, they were not able to hand it down to us.

The great gift of salvation was the Incarnation. Jesus was God made Man -- He walked with us and talked with us. He restored the relationship that Adam and Eve lost. He forgave our sins. He empowered his apostles to forgive our sins. Salvation was done, friendship with God restored.

Jesus didn't have to die! He could have ridden up in a flaming chariot like Elijah, and sent the Holy Spirit for His Apostles to spread His Church throughout the world.... and those who are born into the New Covenant by Baptism (the New Circumcision) would be just like Adam and Eve, enjoying our friendship with God once again. The mission of salvation accomplished.
========================================================

But God had something much richer than mere salvation planned for us. He wants to give us something better than salvation.

So when Jesus established His New Kingdom (the Church). He made Himself the sacrifice of the New Passover of His New Covenant. Jesus Himself is the Unblemished Lamb of the sacrifice. His Blood is shed for us, and we eat His Flesh -- and as He becomes one with each of us, we are each made one in Him. It is for this reason that Jesus willingly offered Himself up on the Cross.

This is the great thing -- by uniting in one flesh with us, we become greater than Adam and Eve. We become one with God Himself.

In the Western Apostolic tradition, we call this sanctification -- being made holy. Becoming saints.

The Eastern Orthodox have a better word for it: They call this deification. We are made to be ever more like God.
=========================================================

Calvin declared that Jesus was just kidding about how we need to eat His Body and drink His Blood -- thus eliminating the need for priests, whom Calvin detested -- even if it meant negating 2/3rds of the Bible.

But for Apostolic Christians, the Good News is not that we are merely saved from sin. The Good News is that we can be One with Christ in His Church.
REMEMBER THE KAVANAUGH!

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Bible Code

Post by arank87 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:57 pm
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:32 am
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:11 am
arank87 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:13 pm
In the code does it say “you are a sinner and Jesus Christ died on a cross to save you from eternal damnation?” If not there’s no value in it.
1) Jesus told us a whole lot more than that.

2) Jesus did a greater thing on the cross than just to pay for our sins.

3) There are no codes or hidden secrets to discover in the Bible. The teaching of the Apostles (including the Scriptures they carried and wrote) is the totality of everything God wants all of us to know.

However, Scripture is very rich, and meditating on the Scripture does help us to understand God's revelation more deeply. But there is nothing new to discover that the Apostles did not know. Nothing like millennialism or a pre-tribulational rapture. And certainly nothing hidden in a crossword code of text.
Can you explain #2? I’m not following.
Okay, Brother Alex. Here goes!

We are speaking of sin and salvation. So let's be clear of what we are talking about:

Sin is our willful disobedience, which separates us from relationship with God. Once lost, we cannot earn God's friendship back. Restoration of that relationship can only be a gift from God.

Salvation is an act of God which restores our relationship with Him.

Adam and Eve enjoyed friendship with God. They walked in the Garden and talked with Him. They lost that intimate friendship by their disobedience. And having lost it, they were not able to hand it down to us.

The great gift of salvation was the Incarnation. Jesus was God made Man -- He walked with us and talked with us. He restored the relationship that Adam and Eve lost. He forgave our sins. He empowered his apostles to forgive our sins. Salvation was done, friendship with God restored.

Jesus didn't have to die! He could have ridden up in a flaming chariot like Elijah, and sent the Holy Spirit for His Apostles to spread His Church throughout the world.... and those who are born into the New Covenant by Baptism (the New Circumcision) would be just like Adam and Eve, enjoying our friendship with God once again. The mission of salvation accomplished.
========================================================

But God had something much richer than mere salvation planned for us. He wants to give us something better than salvation.

So when Jesus established His New Kingdom (the Church). He made Himself the sacrifice of the New Passover of His New Covenant. Jesus Himself is the Unblemished Lamb of the sacrifice. His Blood is shed for us, and we eat His Flesh -- and as He becomes one with each of us, we are each made one in Him. It is for this reason that Jesus willingly offered Himself up on the Cross.

This is the great thing -- by uniting in one flesh with us, we become greater than Adam and Eve. We become one with God Himself.

In the Western Apostolic tradition, we call this sanctification -- being made holy. Becoming saints.

The Eastern Orthodox have a better word for it: They call this deification. We are made to be ever more like God.
=========================================================

Calvin declared that Jesus was just kidding about how we need to eat His Body and drink His Blood -- thus eliminating the need for priests, whom Calvin detested -- even if it meant negating 2/3rds of the Bible.

But for Apostolic Christians, the Good News is not that we are merely saved from sin. The Good News is that we can be One with Christ in His Church.
Del,
First off, I hope you didn't think my post was rude. I was honestly asking for clarification. Secondly, thank you for sharing your well reasoned clarification! I think I agree with pretty much everything you said. Essentially by dying on the cross not only are we saved from Hell but we are promised eternal life as atoned children of God? My understanding of Christ's death is that he brought God and Man together again after our separation occurred after the fall of Adam and Eve.

If I am wrong in my understanding of your explanation let me know but I think we are in agreement. My original point about the Bible Code was that God has already expounded on the most wonderful news ever in the text that is already revealed. Seeking out more information in the form of a code seems like a distraction. God did not reveal everything to us by choice. The code seems like a misguided errand trying to solve a problem God did not intend to have us solve. If He wanted us to have more information He would have given it to us in the text.
“A true Lutheran relies on God’s Word and would not worry about it even if the whole world mocked and despised him for it. He does not consider the world an authority in religious matters. He rests his faith on higher authority.” C.F.W. Walther

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Re: Bible Code

Post by Fainn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Much better than Left Behind.

Farts are either proof that God is a man or a sign of a fallen world.

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Re: Bible Code

Post by coco » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:08 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:11 am
The code to the Bible is one must actually read it.
Kerdy for the win.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Roadmaster » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:06 am

durangopipe wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:58 pm
Here’s a catch up ...
“Mene Tekel Bible Code” wrote: Image


The words, "The message will be carefully encrypted" literally reads, "'It" will be carefully encrypted." The word "encrypted" has the root meaning of, "to plug up" something, as in a hole. The immediate context refers to 'the message' as the thing "plugged up"; however, the subsequent context implies that it is also 'the empty tomb' that is sealed, or, carefully plugged up. It is interesting that 1335 days (Daniel 12:12, cf., Daniel 9:24-27) after the hand-code appeared (Pentecost, 2000), it was announced to the world that Saddam's hiding hole was to be 'carefully plugged up' with cement, (Feb. 3, 2004, traditional anniversary date of Luke 2:21-38. Compare Daniel 12:9-13 with Luke 2:25-30). Then they went and instead "sealed" it secretly the next day with a 300 pound slab of cement. This also makes 1335 days since the hand-code appeared at about 11:30 p.m. Pentecost 2000, and with the 8 hour time-zone difference to our EST, this makes the sealing of the 'tomb' (hole) in Iraq indeed 1335 days! Thus the code reads: "Shout aloud, "It will be carefully plugged up!"'" (i.e., "sealed.")
Wow!
How can anyone doubt it?
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Roadmaster » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:29 am

It occurred to me Ted was a mathematics professor like our beloved Coco.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:00 am

arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:57 pm
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:32 am
Del wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:11 am
arank87 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:13 pm
In the code does it say “you are a sinner and Jesus Christ died on a cross to save you from eternal damnation?” If not there’s no value in it.
1) Jesus told us a whole lot more than that.

2) Jesus did a greater thing on the cross than just to pay for our sins.

3) There are no codes or hidden secrets to discover in the Bible. The teaching of the Apostles (including the Scriptures they carried and wrote) is the totality of everything God wants all of us to know.

However, Scripture is very rich, and meditating on the Scripture does help us to understand God's revelation more deeply. But there is nothing new to discover that the Apostles did not know. Nothing like millennialism or a pre-tribulational rapture. And certainly nothing hidden in a crossword code of text.
Can you explain #2? I’m not following.
Okay, Brother Alex. Here goes!

We are speaking of sin and salvation. So let's be clear of what we are talking about:

Sin is our willful disobedience, which separates us from relationship with God. Once lost, we cannot earn God's friendship back. Restoration of that relationship can only be a gift from God.

Salvation is an act of God which restores our relationship with Him.

Adam and Eve enjoyed friendship with God. They walked in the Garden and talked with Him. They lost that intimate friendship by their disobedience. And having lost it, they were not able to hand it down to us.

The great gift of salvation was the Incarnation. Jesus was God made Man -- He walked with us and talked with us. He restored the relationship that Adam and Eve lost. He forgave our sins. He empowered his apostles to forgive our sins. Salvation was done, friendship with God restored.

Jesus didn't have to die! He could have ridden up in a flaming chariot like Elijah, and sent the Holy Spirit for His Apostles to spread His Church throughout the world.... and those who are born into the New Covenant by Baptism (the New Circumcision) would be just like Adam and Eve, enjoying our friendship with God once again. The mission of salvation accomplished.
========================================================

But God had something much richer than mere salvation planned for us. He wants to give us something better than salvation.

So when Jesus established His New Kingdom (the Church). He made Himself the sacrifice of the New Passover of His New Covenant. Jesus Himself is the Unblemished Lamb of the sacrifice. His Blood is shed for us, and we eat His Flesh -- and as He becomes one with each of us, we are each made one in Him. It is for this reason that Jesus willingly offered Himself up on the Cross.

This is the great thing -- by uniting in one flesh with us, we become greater than Adam and Eve. We become one with God Himself.

In the Western Apostolic tradition, we call this sanctification -- being made holy. Becoming saints.

The Eastern Orthodox have a better word for it: They call this deification. We are made to be ever more like God.
=========================================================

Calvin declared that Jesus was just kidding about how we need to eat His Body and drink His Blood -- thus eliminating the need for priests, whom Calvin detested -- even if it meant negating 2/3rds of the Bible.

But for Apostolic Christians, the Good News is not that we are merely saved from sin. The Good News is that we can be One with Christ in His Church.
Del,
First off, I hope you didn't think my post was rude. I was honestly asking for clarification. Secondly, thank you for sharing your well reasoned clarification! I think I agree with pretty much everything you said. Essentially by dying on the cross not only are we saved from Hell but we are promised eternal life as atoned children of God? My understanding of Christ's death is that he brought God and Man together again after our separation occurred after the fall of Adam and Eve.

If I am wrong in my understanding of your explanation let me know but I think we are in agreement. My original point about the Bible Code was that God has already expounded on the most wonderful news ever in the text that is already revealed. Seeking out more information in the form of a code seems like a distraction. God did not reveal everything to us by choice. The code seems like a misguided errand trying to solve a problem God did not intend to have us solve. If He wanted us to have more information He would have given it to us in the text.
I don't know what sort of church you attend, but it sounds like you were steeped in calvinist tradition. That tradition speaks constantly about "death = atonement." That Jesus "paid the price for our sin."

This isn't false -- the biblical image of the scapegoat does apply (Lev 16). And we also note that Jesus authorized His disciples to forgive sins in His name -- as the very first thing that He did after the Resurrection (John 20:21-23). So it is half-correct to attach Jesus' sacrifice as an act of atonement.

But it misses the bigger picture. Jesus sacrificed himself so that He could be the sacrifice of the New Passover, which is the Lord's Supper -- which is the center of Christian worship.

Jesus did not have to die for us to be reunited with the Father. The Incarnation was sufficient for that. God was walking among us and talking to us, once again.

Jesus did not have to die to forgive our sins. Jesus forgave the sins of many he spoke with, before His death. Jesus authorized His apostles as His priests, to speak His words of forgiveness to us.

Jesus did have to die so that we can eat His Body and drink His blood.
====================================================

The biggest difference between Apostolic Tradition and Calvinist tradition is in the way that we understand forgiveness and salvation.

Calvin taught that, in the Fall, man became depraved. A demon. Unable to do anything good in the sight of God. Then Jesus died for us and paid the price, and our sins were covered over. And even though we remain depraved, we are admitted into God's presence by the sheer gift of His mercy.

One corollary of this thinking is that a guy can be a sinner and a saint at the same time. This makes no sense to the Apostolic faith -- one cannot have his face turned toward God while also turning away from God.
---------------------------

The Apostolic faith is that we are made for God, and even after the Fall we were still made to be with God. But our fallen will and intellect (the spiritual capacities which make us the image of God) were weakened. We no longer saw God clearly, nor were we able to seek Him purely. We aren't "depraved," just fallen. It made the work of obeying God much more difficult.

The good news is that, through the Incarnation and the Passion/Resurrection, we were made better than before. Not just "friends of God," but adopted children of God. When Jesus took on our human nature, He also invites us to participate in His divine nature.

This does put more responsibility on us. We have to repent, and repent constantly. We must live our lives, free of sin. When we stumble, we must ask for forgiveness.... seventy times seven times, if necessary. Which is why the merciful God gives us priests in the New Covenant, just as He gave us priests in the old Covenant.

When Calvin discarded the priests, and the Body & Blood of Christ, and the fullness of redemption, and 2/3rds of Scripture.... he was left with "substitutional atonement" and TULIP.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by arank87 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am

Well not a Calvinist myself. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Which is an apostolic church as well. I think we are arguing at cross purposes here. And not arguing either because I respect your perspective and appreciate the dialog. My point was that things like the Bible code usually try to convince people that there is something more in the Bible. How to invest, secrets for a happier life. Mysteries that only a select few can know! That’s nonsense. So my point was these Codes are never about our relationship with Christ and they are never about the chief doctrines of the Bible which are Law and Gospel. Not sure if I’m making sense and again I want it to be known that I respect and appreciate your Catholic perspective and I am certainly not a theologian myself.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:11 am

arank87 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am
Well not a Calvinist myself. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Which is an apostolic church as well. I think we are arguing at cross purposes here. And not arguing either because I respect your perspective and appreciate the dialog. My point was that things like the Bible code usually try to convince people that there is something more in the Bible. How to invest, secrets for a happier life. Mysteries that only a select few can know! That’s nonsense. So my point was these Codes are never about our relationship with Christ and they are never about the chief doctrines of the Bible which are Law and Gospel. Not sure if I’m making sense and again I want it to be known that I respect and appreciate your Catholic perspective and I am certainly not a theologian myself.
Lutheran is not Apostolic Tradition. Sorry.

But you are right about the gnostic enthusiasm that searches the Bible for secret knowledge that even the Apostles didn't know. It's not Christian.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by arank87 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:30 am

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:11 am
arank87 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am
Well not a Calvinist myself. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Which is an apostolic church as well. I think we are arguing at cross purposes here. And not arguing either because I respect your perspective and appreciate the dialog. My point was that things like the Bible code usually try to convince people that there is something more in the Bible. How to invest, secrets for a happier life. Mysteries that only a select few can know! That’s nonsense. So my point was these Codes are never about our relationship with Christ and they are never about the chief doctrines of the Bible which are Law and Gospel. Not sure if I’m making sense and again I want it to be known that I respect and appreciate your Catholic perspective and I am certainly not a theologian myself.
Lutheran is not Apostolic Tradition. Sorry.

But you are right about the gnostic enthusiasm that searches the Bible for secret knowledge that even the Apostles didn't know. It's not Christian.
Well maybe I'm unclear as to what that means. Christ taught the apostles who then taught others that eventually became the Church in Rome from which Martin Luther was himself trained and educated. Not following the definition of Apostolic I guess.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:50 am

A couple things here.

1. Del presumes he can define words as he see's fit. For instance, "Apostolic" means Roman Catholic.

2.
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm
. . .I think I agree with pretty much everything you [Del] said. . .
Then you weren't paying attention to what he wrote. In particular that Jesus died (had to die) so that he [Del] may eat His literal flesh and drink His literal blood. Presumably, he nibbles dead flesh at the Eucharist. One is left to wonder how Jesus - who is not dead - feels about this. Since He didn't take a slice of flesh and a chalice of blood to share with His apostles when He asked them to remember Him each time they ate the bread and drank the wine, one would be justified in believing He sees transubstantiation in a - shall we say, negative? - way. Forgive me, Arank, if I am wrong in your agreement with Del and his church in regards to the Eucharist.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by arank87 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:02 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:50 am
A couple things here.

1. Del presumes he can define words as he see's fit. For instance, "Apostolic" means Roman Catholic.

2.
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm
. . .I think I agree with pretty much everything you [Del] said. . .
Then you weren't paying attention to what he wrote. In particular that Jesus died (had to die) so that he [Del] may eat His literal flesh and drink His literal blood. Presumably, he nibbles dead flesh at the Eucharist. One is left to wonder how Jesus - who is not dead - feels about this. Since He didn't take a slice of flesh and a chalice of blood to share with His apostles when He asked them to remember Him each time they ate the bread and drank the wine, one would be justified in believing He sees transubstantiation in a - shall we say, negative? - way. Forgive me, Arank, if I am wrong in your agreement with Del and his church in regards to the Eucharist.
Couple points. Thank for you for clarifying the Apostolic question. I was paying attention but was clearly wrong. This is not the first or the last time I have been wrong! I think Del and I reached agreement on the issue that the thread started originally though. Or am I wrong about that as well?
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Re: Bible Code

Post by tuttle » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:26 pm

arank87 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am
Well not a Calvinist myself. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Which is an apostolic church as well. I think we are arguing at cross purposes here. And not arguing either because I respect your perspective and appreciate the dialog. My point was that things like the Bible code usually try to convince people that there is something more in the Bible. How to invest, secrets for a happier life. Mysteries that only a select few can know! That’s nonsense. So my point was these Codes are never about our relationship with Christ and they are never about the chief doctrines of the Bible which are Law and Gospel. Not sure if I’m making sense and again I want it to be known that I respect and appreciate your Catholic perspective and I am certainly not a theologian myself.
I'm glad there's a Lutheran on board. That's a pov that is lacking round here.

Del's a great guy. He just doesn't know much about Martin Luther or John Calvin. :lol: I keep trying to get him to read them, even if only to help him argue against them better.
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FredS
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Re: Bible Code

Post by FredS » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:30 pm

arank87 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:02 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:50 am
A couple things here.

1. Del presumes he can define words as he see's fit. For instance, "Apostolic" means Roman Catholic.

2.
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm
. . .I think I agree with pretty much everything you [Del] said. . .
Then you weren't paying attention to what he wrote. In particular that Jesus died (had to die) so that he [Del] may eat His literal flesh and drink His literal blood. Presumably, he nibbles dead flesh at the Eucharist. One is left to wonder how Jesus - who is not dead - feels about this. Since He didn't take a slice of flesh and a chalice of blood to share with His apostles when He asked them to remember Him each time they ate the bread and drank the wine, one would be justified in believing He sees transubstantiation in a - shall we say, negative? - way. Forgive me, Arank, if I am wrong in your agreement with Del and his church in regards to the Eucharist.
Couple points. Thank for you for clarifying the Apostolic question. I was paying attention but was clearly wrong. This is not the first or the last time I have been wrong! I think Del and I reached agreement on the issue that the thread started originally though. Or am I wrong about that as well?
After the first page, theology threads are rarely about the original post. So, perhaps you guys do agree on Bible codes, but I was writing particular to Del's response when you asked him to expound on his statement that "Jesus did a greater thing on the cross than just to pay for our sins." Surely there are reasons you're Lutheran and not Catholic. Transubstantiation is fairly significant difference in the teachings of your respective churches.

Not that I care.
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Del
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:50 am
A couple things here.

1. Del presumes he can define words as he see's fit. For instance, "Apostolic" means Roman Catholic.

2.
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm
. . .I think I agree with pretty much everything you [Del] said. . .
Then you weren't paying attention to what he wrote. In particular that Jesus died (had to die) so that he [Del] may eat His literal flesh and drink His literal blood. Presumably, he nibbles dead flesh at the Eucharist. One is left to wonder how Jesus - who is not dead - feels about this. Since He didn't take a slice of flesh and a chalice of blood to share with His apostles when He asked them to remember Him each time they ate the bread and drank the wine, one would be justified in believing He sees transubstantiation in a - shall we say, negative? - way. Forgive me, Arank, if I am wrong in your agreement with Del and his church in regards to the Eucharist.
That's a lot of presuming!

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of the Living Christ. Jesus explained this in John 6.

The Apostolic Church is connected to the Apostles by both consistent teaching and historical succession. This means a bishop who is in communion with a Patriarch of the Eastern (Orthodox) or Western (Catholic) Church. The Roman rite of the Western Church is the largest single group, being about two-thirds of the Apostolic Christians, and one-third of all Christians worldwide.

The Protestant tradition, by its own definition, is not Apostolic. The Protestant Fathers rejected the authority of the Apostolic Church, and they disputed its teachings. They kept most of the Bible of the Apostolic Church, with was fortunate. But without the context of Apostolic teaching, there are many, many disagreements over what the Bible means.... and no authority to correct them when they are wrong.
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Re: Bible Code

Post by Del » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:37 pm

tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:26 pm
arank87 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am
Well not a Calvinist myself. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Which is an apostolic church as well. I think we are arguing at cross purposes here. And not arguing either because I respect your perspective and appreciate the dialog. My point was that things like the Bible code usually try to convince people that there is something more in the Bible. How to invest, secrets for a happier life. Mysteries that only a select few can know! That’s nonsense. So my point was these Codes are never about our relationship with Christ and they are never about the chief doctrines of the Bible which are Law and Gospel. Not sure if I’m making sense and again I want it to be known that I respect and appreciate your Catholic perspective and I am certainly not a theologian myself.
I'm glad there's a Lutheran on board. That's a pov that is lacking round here.

Del's a great guy. He just doesn't know much about Martin Luther or John Calvin. :lol: I keep trying to get him to read them, even if only to help him argue against them better.
They are both really angry and uncharitable.

Anyone who's ever complained about Donald Trump's tweets (or various Democrat/media responses) would have a difficult time with Luther or Calvin as "spiritual reading."
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Re: Bible Code

Post by arank87 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:41 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:30 pm
arank87 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:02 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:50 am
A couple things here.

1. Del presumes he can define words as he see's fit. For instance, "Apostolic" means Roman Catholic.

2.
arank87 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:00 pm
. . .I think I agree with pretty much everything you [Del] said. . .
Then you weren't paying attention to what he wrote. In particular that Jesus died (had to die) so that he [Del] may eat His literal flesh and drink His literal blood. Presumably, he nibbles dead flesh at the Eucharist. One is left to wonder how Jesus - who is not dead - feels about this. Since He didn't take a slice of flesh and a chalice of blood to share with His apostles when He asked them to remember Him each time they ate the bread and drank the wine, one would be justified in believing He sees transubstantiation in a - shall we say, negative? - way. Forgive me, Arank, if I am wrong in your agreement with Del and his church in regards to the Eucharist.
Couple points. Thank for you for clarifying the Apostolic question. I was paying attention but was clearly wrong. This is not the first or the last time I have been wrong! I think Del and I reached agreement on the issue that the thread started originally though. Or am I wrong about that as well?
After the first page, theology threads are rarely about the original post. So, perhaps you guys do agree on Bible codes, but I was writing particular to Del's response when you asked him to expound on his statement that "Jesus did a greater thing on the cross than just to pay for our sins." Surely there are reasons you're Lutheran and not Catholic. Transubstantiation is fairly significant difference in the teachings of your respective churches.

Not that I care.
Yes indeed and I missed that point. I guess with all due respect to Del I don’t agree that Christ didn’t have to die on the cross and I don’t hold to the transubstantiation prescribed by Rome but I do believe that there is a lot of mystery in the Eucharist and don’t like to argue it. I believe the bread and the wine remain as such while also being fully the Body and Blood. But is that worth arguing over? I would get a lot more hot under the collar over other Roman teachings than transubstantiation. One of the things I like about CPS is the chance to have ecumenical dialog with people from other denominations. Sometimes in an effort to be polite and not let things get heated I may be more agreeable than I should be. But I would rather err on the side of politeness than hostility because where there is anger there is rarely listening. Now, I am not saying one here was angry RATHER in an attempt to have a polite discourse I think I was too quick to agree. I am both Lutheran and Minnesotan and sometimes the Minnesotan is stronger than the Lutheran. I’m also at work and I’ve had a ton of coffee and I’m on my phone :coffee: :coffee:
“A true Lutheran relies on God’s Word and would not worry about it even if the whole world mocked and despised him for it. He does not consider the world an authority in religious matters. He rests his faith on higher authority.” C.F.W. Walther

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