THE CATHOLIC THREAD

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:15 pm

wosbald wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:53 am
+JMJ+

French bishops urge mobilization against increasing anti-Semitism
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People attend a national gathering in Strasbourg, France, Feb. 19, 2019, to protest anti-Semitic attacks. (CNS/Vincent Kessler/Reuters)

Paris — The French bishops' conference has condemned rising anti-Semitism in the country, as official data showed a massive increase of attacks, prompting new government measures.

The conference president, Archbishop Georges Pontier of Marseille, wrote France's chief rabbi, Haim Korsia, Feb. 20.

"Attacks from seemingly religious motives on our fellow citizens are unacceptable; we stand beside you in struggling against every manifestation of hatred," Pontier said in his letter.

"Our society cannot find peace unless it supports a constructive dialogue among all its members. May we never resign ourselves to the growth of intolerance and rejection," he said.

In Paris Feb. 19, some 20,000 people rallied against anti-Semitism, prompting President Emmanuel Macron to announce new measures against extremism.

Msgr. Olivier Dumas, conference secretary-general, called on all political parties and faith groups to "show solidarity with Jews" and condemn attacks on religious targets.

"This climate of violence and hatred must end," he told Vatican Radio. "We must wage a struggle against anti-Semitism with fierce determination, knowing where hatred of Jews led in our history, and do everything to ensure powerful impulses for such unimaginable violence never arise again."

He said fighting anti-Semitism was a responsibility "not just for institutions and religious leaders, but for all French citizens," who should mobilize through education and "a permanent re-reading of history."

[…]

In a separate Feb. 18 statement, the bishops' conference pledged "seamless support for the Jewish community," and recalled Pope Francis' call for "joint work to ensure anti-Semitism is banished from the human community."

It added that France's Christian churches had also witnessed "numerous acts of vandalism and profanation," and said "signs of hatred in the heart of society" called for "a leap of fraternity."
Lol. French Bishops: Real Problem in the Church Jew-Hating Arabs.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Hovannes » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:18 pm

File the Vatican Abuse Summit under Whiskey Tango Foxtrot---
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatic ... to-address
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:01 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:18 pm
File the Vatican Abuse Summit under Whiskey Tango Foxtrot---
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatic ... to-address
Buncha queers, if you ask me. Luckily, I go to Church for my own soul, not for theirs.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:05 am

+JMJ+

Pope Francis: Vatican next year to open archives on wartime Pius XII
Image
Pope Francis delivers his speech during a Mass in the St. Crispino parish church, in the Labaro neighborhood, Rome, Sunday, March 3, 2019. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis says he has decided to open up the Vatican archives on World War II-era Pope Pius XII, who has been accused by Jews of staying silent on the Holocaust.

Declaring that “the church isn’t afraid of history,” Francis told employees of the Vatican Secret Archives on Monday that the archives spanning the 1939-1958 pontificate would be open to researchers on March 2, 2020.

The Vatican usually waits 70 years after the end of a pontificate to open archives. It has been pressure to make the Pius XII documentation available sooner, while Holocaust survivors are still alive. The Vatican has defended Pius, saying he used behind-the-scenes diplomacy to try to save lives.

Pius’ actions will be scrutinized as part of efforts to decide if he should be a saint.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Hovannes » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:29 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:05 am
+JMJ+

Pope Francis: Vatican next year to open archives on wartime Pius XII
Image
Pope Francis delivers his speech during a Mass in the St. Crispino parish church, in the Labaro neighborhood, Rome, Sunday, March 3, 2019. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis says he has decided to open up the Vatican archives on World War II-era Pope Pius XII, who has been accused by Jews of staying silent on the Holocaust.

Declaring that “the church isn’t afraid of history,” Francis told employees of the Vatican Secret Archives on Monday that the archives spanning the 1939-1958 pontificate would be open to researchers on March 2, 2020.

The Vatican usually waits 70 years after the end of a pontificate to open archives. It has been pressure to make the Pius XII documentation available sooner, while Holocaust survivors are still alive. The Vatican has defended Pius, saying he used behind-the-scenes diplomacy to try to save lives.

Pius’ actions will be scrutinized as part of efforts to decide if he should be a saint.
Joey the Ox isn't alive.
Stalin's grandson probably isn't, either.
Much has already been researched by Rick Atkinson, he's got like 100 pages of citations and IIRC the Vatican Archives had already been sourced.
I'm surprised this hasn't been made into a movie---oh wait, Pius XII a good guy? Hollywood wouldn't have any of that :twisted:
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:34 am

Hovannes wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:29 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:05 am
+JMJ+

Pope Francis: Vatican next year to open archives on wartime Pius XII
Image
Pope Francis delivers his speech during a Mass in the St. Crispino parish church, in the Labaro neighborhood, Rome, Sunday, March 3, 2019. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis says he has decided to open up the Vatican archives on World War II-era Pope Pius XII, who has been accused by Jews of staying silent on the Holocaust.

Declaring that “the church isn’t afraid of history,” Francis told employees of the Vatican Secret Archives on Monday that the archives spanning the 1939-1958 pontificate would be open to researchers on March 2, 2020.

The Vatican usually waits 70 years after the end of a pontificate to open archives. It has been pressure to make the Pius XII documentation available sooner, while Holocaust survivors are still alive. The Vatican has defended Pius, saying he used behind-the-scenes diplomacy to try to save lives.

Pius’ actions will be scrutinized as part of efforts to decide if he should be a saint.
Joey the Ox isn't alive.
Stalin's grandson probably isn't, either.
Much has already been researched by Rick Atkinson, he's got like 100 pages of citations and IIRC the Vatican Archives had already been sourced.
I'm surprised this hasn't been made into a movie---oh wait, Pius XII a good guy? Hollywood wouldn't have any of that :twisted:
Again, hes a fool. It's well documented that the jews did a massive turnaround on Pius XII in the sixties and seventies--from massive praise to labeling him complicit. Maybe you could pay them to change their minds, but you'll never convince them. Too much money in it.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Hovannes » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:31 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:34 am
Hovannes wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:29 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:05 am
+JMJ+

Pope Francis: Vatican next year to open archives on wartime Pius XII
Image
Pope Francis delivers his speech during a Mass in the St. Crispino parish church, in the Labaro neighborhood, Rome, Sunday, March 3, 2019. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis says he has decided to open up the Vatican archives on World War II-era Pope Pius XII, who has been accused by Jews of staying silent on the Holocaust.

Declaring that “the church isn’t afraid of history,” Francis told employees of the Vatican Secret Archives on Monday that the archives spanning the 1939-1958 pontificate would be open to researchers on March 2, 2020.

The Vatican usually waits 70 years after the end of a pontificate to open archives. It has been pressure to make the Pius XII documentation available sooner, while Holocaust survivors are still alive. The Vatican has defended Pius, saying he used behind-the-scenes diplomacy to try to save lives.

Pius’ actions will be scrutinized as part of efforts to decide if he should be a saint.
Joey the Ox isn't alive.
Stalin's grandson probably isn't, either.
Much has already been researched by Rick Atkinson, he's got like 100 pages of citations and IIRC the Vatican Archives had already been sourced.
I'm surprised this hasn't been made into a movie---oh wait, Pius XII a good guy? Hollywood wouldn't have any of that :twisted:
Again, hes a fool. It's well documented that the jews did a massive turnaround on Pius XII in the sixties and seventies--from massive praise to labeling him complicit. Maybe you could pay them to change their minds, but you'll never convince them. Too much money in it.
I personally know an Anglican who drank that Kool-Aid,
Heck, there are catholics who are right along side 'em, and a few of those are priests!
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:06 am

+JMJ+

Opening archives won’t settle debate over Pius XII and the Holocaust [News Analysis]
Image
In this Feb. 27, 1940 file photo Pope Pius XII receives the special envoy to the Vatican, Myron C. Taylor, who presented a letter from U. S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Pope Francis said Monday, March 4, 2019 he has decided to open up to researchers the Vatican archives on World War II-era Pope Pius XII, who has been accused by Jews of staying silent on the Holocaust. (Credit: AP Photo)

Whatever else opening the archives from the papacy of Pius XII in 2020 may mean, it won't bring an end to the debate over his alleged "silence" on the Holocaust.

ROME — Whatever else Pope Francis’s decision Monday to open the archives from the pontificate of Pius XII in 2020 may mean, there’s one preliminary conclusion that seems take-it-to-the-bank, no-doubt-about-it, slam-dunk certain.

Here it is: Opening the archives will not — indeed, by definition, cannot — settle the historical controversy about Pius XII and his alleged “silence” during the Holocaust.

That’s because the debate is counter-factual, pivoting not on what Pope Pius did or didn’t do, but rather what he should have done.

Should Pius XII have publicly denounced Hitler? Should he have threatened to excommunicate anyone involved in the mechanism of the Holocaust? Should he have pressured the Allies to liberate Nazi extermination camps earlier? Should he have offered himself in ransom for German prisoners in Rome after the 1943 occupation of the city, or come up with some other dramatic gesture to register disapproval?

Answers to those questions involve subjective judgments about what would have produced the best results in a complicated set of circumstances — whether fortune would have favored the bold, or discretion was the better part of valor — and, alas, there’s no “smoking gun” in anyone’s archives that will provide conclusive resolution one way or the other.

Moreover, the debate over Pius XII is also a moral one, and as anyone who’s ever taken moral philosophy or basic logic knows, one cannot deduce an “ought” from an “is.” You can pile up all the historical facts you like, but in themselves they won’t tell you what Pius or anyone else ought to have done.

[…]

Proof that fresh data won’t really change much comes from the irony that positions about Pius XII hardened at precisely the same time the Vatican was providing unprecedented access to its records. St. Paul VI ordered the archives from the war years made public, which happened in a series of 12 volumes published between 1964 and 1981. St. John Paul II authorized an additional release of records in 2004 concerning prisoners of war.

Given that all those records have already been made public and put under a scholarly microscope, most experts are skeptical that anything new will come to light in 2020 that will really alter the calculus. (Granted, critics suspected the Vatican had “sanitized” those materials, but who’s to say they won’t lodge the same complaint this time?)

[…]

That’s not to say that the new material won’t been of keen historical interest, but likely in other areas. As Chenaux pointed out, the late 1940s and 1950s have long been a bit of a “black hole” for researchers — there are abundant studies of the war years and of the run-up to the Second Vatican Council (1962-65), but relatively little in between.

Those years produced some of Pius’s greatest teaching documents, such as 1947’s Mediator Dei, on the liturgy, and 1950’s Humani generis, which helped open Catholic thought to evolutionary theory and the biological sciences. The period also includes some of Pius’s most important administrative moves, such as his efforts in 1953/54 to rein in France’s “worker-priest” movement, which, in some ways, would anticipate later struggles over liberation theology.

Americans will be interested in whatever the archives may reveal about Pius’s relationship with the U.S. hierarchy of the day, perhaps especially his close ties with Cardinal Francis Spellman of New York. It would be fascinating, for instance, to know what Pius really thought when Spellman turned down the pontiff’s offer in 1944 to make him the first American Secretary of State — whether Pius regretted a missed opportunity, or, as he watched Spellman move in a progressively more hardline direction, felt he’d actually dodged a bullet.

Moreover, the opening of the archives also may help clear the path for Pius XII’s sainthood cause, if only by removing one of the usual objections as to why it was “premature.” (Notably, however, concerns about records still being confidential didn’t get in the way of sainthood for John XXIII, Paul VI or John Paul II, which suggests that assessments of personal sanctity have relatively little to do with the details of ecclesiastical governance.)

In any event, what opening the archives will not bring, at least in itself, is an end to the moral dispute over the legacy of Pius XII vis-à-vis the Holocaust. Resolving that argument would require an opening of minds and hearts, not just records, and the former are generally far more difficult to unseal.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:10 am

That article spoke obvious truth. I really do think Crux and the Catholic Herald do their best for objectivity and general politeness of all the sites out there.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by DepartedLight » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:01 pm

5:15 Mass tomorrow.

It looks like I should be able to go to 1 or 2 through the week celebrations all through Lent.

Oh to be a daily communicant again!
DL Jake

Feel free to use that quote in your signature. Stanley76 » 22 Feb 2019 21:50

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:13 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:01 pm
5:15 Mass tomorrow.

It looks like I should be able to go to 1 or 2 through the week celebrations all through Lent.

Oh to be a daily communicant again!
You make me happy, Jake.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:40 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:13 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:01 pm
5:15 Mass tomorrow.

It looks like I should be able to go to 1 or 2 through the week celebrations all through Lent.

Oh to be a daily communicant again!
You make me happy, Jake.
It's good to be home!

6:30 pm Latin Mass for Ash Wednesday. (I won't have to hear anyone sing We Rise Again from Ashes. Dreadful.)
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:35 am

Blessed Ash Wednesday, friends.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:43 am

+JMJ+
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:35 am
Blessed Ash Wednesday, friends.
Bakatcha, bro.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Hovannes » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:01 pm

We have a new Bishop in Fresno!
https://zenit.org/articles/pope-names-n ... alifornia/
I hope he'll be a courageous one!
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Thunktank » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:19 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:13 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:01 pm
5:15 Mass tomorrow.

It looks like I should be able to go to 1 or 2 through the week celebrations all through Lent.

Oh to be a daily communicant again!
You make me happy, Jake.
It's good to be home!

6:30 pm Latin Mass for Ash Wednesday. (I won't have to hear anyone sing We Rise Again from Ashes. Dreadful.)

Why is that so dreadful? No worse than the normal stuff I say.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:53 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:19 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:40 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:13 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:01 pm
5:15 Mass tomorrow.

It looks like I should be able to go to 1 or 2 through the week celebrations all through Lent.

Oh to be a daily communicant again!
You make me happy, Jake.
It's good to be home!

6:30 pm Latin Mass for Ash Wednesday. (I won't have to hear anyone sing We Rise Again from Ashes. Dreadful.)

Why is that so dreadful? No worse than the normal stuff I say.
I'm sorry to hear that's no worse than the normal stuff out your way, thunktank.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Hovannes » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:41 pm

Cardinal Roger the dodger, as he is known, gets a gig at a West Coast Catholic Educator's conference:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/disgr ... conference
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:23 am

+JMJ+

Theologian: Academics must move out of theological ‘comfort zones’ [In-Depth]
Image
Dr. Matthew Levering. (Credit: University of St. Mary of the Lake)

[Editor’s Note: Matthew Levering holds the James N. and Mary D. Perry Jr. Chair of Theology at Mundelein Seminary. He is the author or editor of more than forty books on topics in dogmatic, sacramental, moral, historical, and biblical theology. He co-edits two quarterly journals, Nova et Vetera and International Journal of Systematic Theology. He co-founded the Chicago Theological Initiative and has directed the Center for Scriptural Exegesis, Philosophy, and Doctrine since 2011. He spoke to Charles Camosy about the state of theology in America.]

Camosy: Could you broadly characterize the health of Catholic theology in the United States in our current moment? What, in your view, is the state of the field?

Levering: There are so many theologians doing interesting and valuable things. I am particularly grateful for theological work that begins with divine revelation, with the salvific and powerful word of God. …

[…]

Could the Church in its historical particularity — which surely is all too ‘uncatholic’ when compared with the pluralism that marks the ‘universality’ of the world, yet whose catholicity opens up to the fullness of all vocations of love — really is the bearer of the truth of all reality, namely, the bearer of (the body of, the bride of) the Christ who has come to challenge our sinfulness and to redeem us with a judgment, mercy, and love that means that even now our lives are hid with him at the right hand of the Father, and that we await the everlasting radiance and transparency of all things to the luminous and unfathomable communion of the divine Persons who are one God?

To the extent that our field is actually engaged with this wondrous mystery of marital intimacy with God through Christ and his Spirit — probing this mystery, seeking to live it and to speak about how it might be lived, seeking to understand and communicate it without neutering it by submission to the fads and Zeitgeist of the era (while picking up upon the real contributions of the era!) — then our field truly has something to say to people who, created for interpersonal communion and marked by the constant threats of deep suffering, sinful alienation, and annihilating death, are seeking the living God and seeking a Redeemer. And I think that our field is doing a good deal of such work, though much more is needed.

In my corner of the field, I find a turn toward intersectional critical theory (intertwined with identity politics) to be one of the signs of the times. In many ways this is good as it has highlighted issues and voices that were missing from the conversation. On the other hand, it is bad because the discourse is hegemonic and is leading toward the privileging of history and sociology over theology. If current trends continue, I predicted that theology will be pushed nearly exclusively to the seminaries and universities will continue their move toward religious studies. What is your sense of these trends?

Ultimately, there is a strong push in academia to turn away from the deepest questions. I have read the work of Patricia Hill Collins and I find it does not go deep enough. Theologians are tempted to believe that the deepest issue, the deepest reality is power. If we could only ensure that the structures of power were level, that those currently on the power-margins had sufficient power, then the pain of life would be greatly lessened. I don’t believe this. The pain of life is much deeper; it comes as we face the many layers of inner alienation, desire for communion, profound weakness, and slippage into utter and everlasting annihilation.

There is a profound unhappiness even among highly powerful and wealthy people. In love, we are meant to go to the poor, including those living in deep impoverishment and vulnerability, and our task is to go to them, our fellow sinners and fellow sufferers, with and in the fullness of the Gospel. They have a Redeemer, Jesus Christ; they have a path of love, Jesus Christ. Wealthy people and poor people meet together in the Gospel, and the Gospel, lived in its fullness, is the path of community and life. The power of the Cross leads us into the mysterious truth that love is the true reality, before which power bends the knee.

In the same piece I linked to above, I characterized most of our professional venues for theological exchange — including the Academy of Catholic Theology (ACT) — as kinds of “safe spaces” where largely like-minded people meet without really facing major challenges. I know that you have a different view on this, though, especially when it comes to ACT.

In the theological academy and the academy more broadly, my ‘voice’ is on the margins to such a degree that I would be seen as too ‘conservative’ to be hired in many university departments of religious studies/theology, as you know; and when I have worked with colleagues who find my perspective too conservative, it has been painful since in such contexts I am not part of the ‘we’, however kind my colleagues might be. There does need to be a ‘we’ where Catholic theologians, often rather isolated in departments that have distanced themselves from Scripture and Tradition as normative, can come together to discuss the mysteries of God and Jesus Christ.

Fortunately, there are a number of theologians who are interested in doing this, as I indicate above. But while such theologians share an understanding of faith as a response to God’s authoritative word in Scripture and Tradition, they generally disagree profoundly with each other about the details: The patristic scholars are at odds with the Thomists, who are at odds with the Balthasarians, and the biblical scholars see things from an entirely different perspective, not to mention all the other widely diverse modes of approach. So, the Academy of Catholic Theology attempts to have a unity at the level of first principles but there is debate, and delightful argumentation, on every aspect.

[…]

What comes next for you? What are you working on these days?

I am working on a book called ‘Engaging the Doctrine of Israel’. It will have chapters on creation, people and land, king and temple, prophecy, wisdom, and so on. Each chapter will involve an extensive dialogue with a contemporary or twentieth-century Jewish theologian. The history of Catholic interaction with and understanding of the Jewish people has been so terrible, so filled with sin and abuse on the part of Catholics. God willing, the book will be a positive contribution, without watering down the Catholic affirmation of Jesus as the Messiah. I am also working on the theology of conscience and some other projects as well. My projects are always just excuses to read the writings of others.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:09 pm

Going to a parish fish fry with Pipeson tonight.

The parents and students of St. Peter's School in Ashton, WI, host these.... every other week or so. It is awesome. Served "family style," so we always get to enjoy a table and share serving bowls with friendly strangers.

The line is usually two or three beers long.

I don't see what's so hard about Lent.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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