I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:15 am

+JMJ+

Polarized over the pope, Viganò style [Opinion]
Image
Carlo Maria Viganò (Credit: THX Medos S.A.)

More than two weeks after the release of the sensational “Testimony” of former US apostolic nuncio Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, in which he calls for the resignation of Pope Francis, the Church finds itself in a period of intense polarization that’s difficult to assess.

First, if you haven’t read it, I wholeheartedly recommend Greg Daly’s recent piece in the Irish Catholic, in which he heroically attempts to parse out what we know and what we don’t know about the controversy.

Viganò makes three key charges against Francis: (1) that Pope Benedict imposed secret canonical sanctions (similar to those publicly imposed on him now) on Archbishop McCarrick in 2009-2010, and that Pope Francis was made aware of these sanctions in 2013; (2) that the Holy Father lifted or set aside the canonical sanctions in 2013; and (3) that he then made McCarrick a trusted advisor, especially in the area of episcopal selections (singling out the appointments of Cardinals Blase Cupich and Joseph Tobin, as well as Bishop Robert McElroy, as examples of appointments that McCarrick recommended).

Charges 1 and 2, in particular, have come under a great deal of scrutiny. According to Viganò’s document, “The cardinal [McCarrick] was to leave the seminary where he was living, he was forbidden to celebrate [Mass] in public, to participate in public meetings, to give lectures, to travel, with the obligation of dedicating himself to a life of prayer and penance.”

This has not been verified by any documentary proof, and the public behavior of Viganò and Benedict toward McCarrick during the period in question does not lend any credence to the claim that McCarrick was restricted in his ministry. McCarrick continued to travel and continued to make public appearances at events such as ordinations. Video taken during this period includes warm greetings between McCarrick and the former nuncio, as well as between McCarrick and Benedict.

Numerous journalists have made note of these public appearances, which I will not rehash here, but you can read Michael O’Loughlin’s report in America magazine and Cindy Wooden’s piece for CNS. Blogger “Catholic in Brooklyn” chronicles how the original assertion from Archbishop Viganò that “canonical sanctions” were placed against then-Cardinal McCarrick has been downgraded to a verbal suggestion that he “keep a low profile.”

So where do things stand?

It’s still unclear what, precisely, Benedict imposed upon McCarrick (if anything), and to what degree Francis relied on him as an advisor. Benedict isn’t talking (and claims he can’t remember), and Francis isn’t talking for now – and if/when he does, will be accused of lying by those who have already decided he’s guilty.

As of this writing, the “C9” Council of Cardinals has announced that the Vatican is preparing necessary clarifications in response to Archbishop Viganò’s allegations.

[…]

It’s likely that we will never know the truth with complete certainty. With regards to answers that will confirm Viganò’s testimony, I doubt we will see much. I am skeptical that opening up the files (such as they are) will reveal all that much more than what is already known.

What we might find is a paper trail that fills in some of the missing details about how Cardinal McCarrick rose to prominence. For example, CNS recently unearthed proof that the Vatican was informed of allegations against Archbishop McCarrick in 2000. We must remember, however, that Ramsey himself didn’t substantiate the accusations, he just brought the rumors to the attention of the Vatican and the nunciature. Despite the seriousness of the allegations, for whatever reason, no thorough investigation was made at the time. How McCarrick avoided discipline or sanctions at every turn remains a mystery. And all of this happened long before Francis became pope.

Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:44 am

+JMJ+


Update way priests are chosen, accompanied, pope tells new bishops

Image
Pope Francis attends a meeting with new bishops from mission territories at the Vatican Sept. 8. (Credit: CNS photo/Vatican Media)

ROME — The best way to help the Catholic Church, Pope Francis told new bishops, is not by pointing fingers and creating scapegoats, but by working together doing God’s will.

Do not be embarrassed to talk to the faithful, to answer their questions, he told them, and pay “specific attention” to the priests and seminaries in the diocese.

“We cannot respond to the challenges we have regarding them without updating our processes of selection, accompaniment, evaluation,” the pope said.

However, he said, all efforts will be fruitless if the responses do not address “the spiritual abyss, which, in many cases, permitted scandalous weaknesses, if they do not expose the existential vacuum that (the weaknesses) nurtured and if they do not reveal why God was made voiceless like this, hushed up like this, removed like this from a certain way of life as if he didn’t exist.”

[…]

In his speech, the pope urged the new bishops not to let themselves be “tempted by stories of catastrophes or prophesies of disasters, because what really matters is persevering, not letting love grow cold, but standing upright, heads raised toward the Lord because the Church is not ours but is God’s! He was here before us and will be here after us!”

“Each one of us,” he said, must humbly and deeply reflect on “what can be done to make more holy the face of the Church, which we govern in the name” of God.

“It is useless just to point fingers at others, create scapegoats, rend garments, delve into the weakness of others,” he said.

“It is necessary here to work together and in communion,” the pope said. But at the same time, the bishops must remember that “authentic holiness is what God works in us, when — docile to his spirit — we return to the simple joy of the Gospel” so that his blessings may come to others through the choices the bishops make and the way they live their lives.

[…]

Be vigilant, he told the bishops, especially when the temptation is to retreat and “the evil one, who is always lurking, subtly suggests that, at this point, dawn will never come.”

The way to be holy, he said, is to abandon oneself to God, “like a weaned child that does not need to demand proof his mother is near,” and to let the beauty, security and fullness of God shine through.

“God is not tamable,” the pope told the new bishops. “He doesn’t need fences for defending his freedom, and he does not get contaminated as people come close, rather, he sanctifies what he touches.”

[…]
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:33 am

wosbald wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:15 am
+JMJ+

Polarized over the pope, Viganò style [Opinion]
Image
Carlo Maria Viganò (Credit: THX Medos S.A.)

More than two weeks after the release of the sensational “Testimony” of former US apostolic nuncio Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, in which he calls for the resignation of Pope Francis, the Church finds itself in a period of intense polarization that’s difficult to assess.

First, if you haven’t read it, I wholeheartedly recommend Greg Daly’s recent piece in the Irish Catholic, in which he heroically attempts to parse out what we know and what we don’t know about the controversy.

Viganò makes three key charges against Francis: (1) that Pope Benedict imposed secret canonical sanctions (similar to those publicly imposed on him now) on Archbishop McCarrick in 2009-2010, and that Pope Francis was made aware of these sanctions in 2013; (2) that the Holy Father lifted or set aside the canonical sanctions in 2013; and (3) that he then made McCarrick a trusted advisor, especially in the area of episcopal selections (singling out the appointments of Cardinals Blase Cupich and Joseph Tobin, as well as Bishop Robert McElroy, as examples of appointments that McCarrick recommended).

Charges 1 and 2, in particular, have come under a great deal of scrutiny. According to Viganò’s document, “The cardinal [McCarrick] was to leave the seminary where he was living, he was forbidden to celebrate [Mass] in public, to participate in public meetings, to give lectures, to travel, with the obligation of dedicating himself to a life of prayer and penance.”

This has not been verified by any documentary proof, and the public behavior of Viganò and Benedict toward McCarrick during the period in question does not lend any credence to the claim that McCarrick was restricted in his ministry. McCarrick continued to travel and continued to make public appearances at events such as ordinations. Video taken during this period includes warm greetings between McCarrick and the former nuncio, as well as between McCarrick and Benedict.

Numerous journalists have made note of these public appearances, which I will not rehash here, but you can read Michael O’Loughlin’s report in America magazine and Cindy Wooden’s piece for CNS. Blogger “Catholic in Brooklyn” chronicles how the original assertion from Archbishop Viganò that “canonical sanctions” were placed against then-Cardinal McCarrick has been downgraded to a verbal suggestion that he “keep a low profile.”

So where do things stand?

It’s still unclear what, precisely, Benedict imposed upon McCarrick (if anything), and to what degree Francis relied on him as an advisor. Benedict isn’t talking (and claims he can’t remember), and Francis isn’t talking for now – and if/when he does, will be accused of lying by those who have already decided he’s guilty.

As of this writing, the “C9” Council of Cardinals has announced that the Vatican is preparing necessary clarifications in response to Archbishop Viganò’s allegations.

[…]

It’s likely that we will never know the truth with complete certainty. With regards to answers that will confirm Viganò’s testimony, I doubt we will see much. I am skeptical that opening up the files (such as they are) will reveal all that much more than what is already known.

What we might find is a paper trail that fills in some of the missing details about how Cardinal McCarrick rose to prominence. For example, CNS recently unearthed proof that the Vatican was informed of allegations against Archbishop McCarrick in 2000. We must remember, however, that Ramsey himself didn’t substantiate the accusations, he just brought the rumors to the attention of the Vatican and the nunciature. Despite the seriousness of the allegations, for whatever reason, no thorough investigation was made at the time. How McCarrick avoided discipline or sanctions at every turn remains a mystery. And all of this happened long before Francis became pope.

Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
And a rather poorly formed opinion it is. It doesn't take into consideration the Bishops who took sanctions against priests and parishioners who approached said Bishops with hard evidence against certain bad actor priests in their diocese or in seminary.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:04 am

+JMJ+

Pope Francis taps loyalists for key roles in Synod of Bishops
Image
Pope Francis arrives at the annual Bishops' Conference in the Synod hall at the Vatican, Monday, May 21, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)

ROME — Despite calls in some quarters to put October’s Synod of Bishops on hold due to abuse scandals effecting his papacy, Pope Francis has given no indication that he intends to call off the event, and with Saturday’s publication of the official list of participants, the gathering seems set to proceed as planned.

As usual, the list of some 300 cardinals, bishops, priests, religious and lay participants who will be present includes every region around the world, named for the most part by bishops’ conferences, or the pope himself.

[…]

Prelates named by Francis for this year’s Synod on Young People, Faith and the Discernment of Vocation, set to take place in Rome Oct. 3-28, represent not only his attention to social issues and global peripheries, but are also close papal allies.

Among the pope’s appointees are Cardinals Reinhard Marx of Munich and President of the German bishops’ conference; Blase Cupich of Chicago; Joseph Tobin of Newark, NJ and Angelo De Donatis, Vicar of the Diocese of Rome, all of whom, apart from Marx, got their red hat from Francis. All are seen as close papal confidants.

Also noteworthy are Francis’s appointments of Father Antonio Spadaro, director of Jesuit-run journal La Civilta’ Cattolica and a close papal friend, and Father Michael Czerny, undersecretary for the migrants and refugees section of the dicastery for Integral Human Development, which is overseen by Francis directly.

Other significant names on the list are Cardinal Gerald Cyprien LaCroix of Quebec, Canada; Cardinal Giuseppe Bertello, president of the Governorate of the Vatican City State; Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Pontifical Academy for Life and grand chancellor of the newly-established Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Marriage and Family Sciences; Archbishop Matteo Maria Zuppi of Bologna; Archbishop Mario Enrico Delpini of Milan; and Archbishop Peter Andrew Comensoli of Melbourne.

The papal delegates, unsurprisingly, also include a number of cardinals and prelates, many of whom got a red had from Francis, from small or obscure dioceses without a large Catholic presence, or where the Church faces hardship.

[…]

Other key American names elected by bishops’ conferences are Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, archbishop of Gavelston-Houston and president of the U.S. bishops’ conference, and Archbishop Jose Gomez of Los Angeles, vice president of the USCCB.

Both prelates were in Rome Thursday for a meeting with Francis to discuss a possible apostolic visitation looking into the scandals surrounding ex-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and his rise to power in the U.S., despite common knowledge of his sexual misconduct with seminarians.

However, to date, no information has been released on the meeting, nor has there been an indication from the U.S. bishops or the Vatican as to whether a visitation will in fact take place, or when.

Bishop Robert Barron, auxiliary bishop of Los Angeles, was also tapped by the USCCB to participate in the synod. Barron’s known for his numerous digital media initiatives and as an engaging speaker.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by durangopipe » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am

Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:41 am

Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here. Some of the Trads are schismatic in their hearts. They may be “right” about a lot of things, but they are also trying to “take down” the one God chose to fill the role of St. Peter. Being critical of Papal activity is one thing, to unilaterally call for his resignation on hearsay information is quite another.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:42 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
Whether inside or out, it is important to know that John Paul II devoted his entire pontificate to the authentic implementation of Vatican II.

The Council had been hijacked by social reformers, the "Spirit of Vatican II." The reality of Vatican II was focused on calling the world to holiness, ecumenical and missionary outreach, and a deep return to Scripture and Tradition -- the source of our faith.

There wasn't supposed to be a re-write of the Mass.... or wreckovation of our churches and altars.... or an infusion of goofiness into our music.... or an embrace of the world's sexual immorality.

John Paul II was exactly what Vatican II was supposed to be.

Benedict XVI continued the work of the Church. Plus.... He was profoundly focused on bringing all of the world's Christians together. His work in "ecumenical outreach" was the most astounding since the Reformation. We didn't see much of this, because American Evangelicalism is such a tough nut to crack. But in the world, Benedict's reputation among Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Eastern religions is high.

Francis has carried on Benedict's work in Christian unity. He has unraveled some of our efforts to restore Catholic faith and sacred liturgy in our dioceses. He has been a mixed bag.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:57 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:41 am
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here. Some of the Trads are schismatic in their hearts. They may be “right” about a lot of things, but they are also trying to “take down” the one God chose to fill the role of St. Peter. Being critical of Papal activity is one thing, to unilaterally call for his resignation on hearsay information is quite another.
Among those who are working to "politicize" the Catholic Church, there are some calling for Pope Francis to resign. It is a small group.

There is also a very loud bunch of leftists in the Church -- who are emboldened by Francis, whether it is his fault or not. They are making a megaphone of the smaller group.

Note all of the links here.... not one that actually calls for Pope Francis to resign. But a whole bunch of links complaining about some nameless "others" who want Francis to resign.

Out in the real world -- I can't name any bishops who working to "oust" Francis. I doubt they exist.

Even Vigano is not maneuvering politically to see Francis removed. He did "call for Francis to resign," after confessing that Francis was aware and complicit in the homosexual cabals that made victims of many young priests who homosexual (or who dared to speak up against the gay sexual activity). But Vigano has not made appearances and speeches, organizing resistance and spreading petitions. He isn't working to oust Francis.

Michael Voris is stridently calling for Francis to resign, and the cast of usual suspects.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:57 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:42 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
Whether inside or out, it is important to know that John Paul II devoted his entire pontificate to the authentic implementation of Vatican II.

The Council had been hijacked by social reformers, the "Spirit of Vatican II." The reality of Vatican II was focused on calling the world to holiness, ecumenical and missionary outreach, and a deep return to Scripture and Tradition -- the source of our faith.

There wasn't supposed to be a re-write of the Mass.... or wreckovation of our churches and altars.... or an infusion of goofiness into our music.... or an embrace of the world's sexual immorality.

John Paul II was exactly what Vatican II was supposed to be.

Benedict XVI continued the work of the Church. Plus.... He was profoundly focused on bringing all of the world's Christians together. His work in "ecumenical outreach" was the most astounding since the Reformation. We didn't see much of this, because American Evangelicalism is such a tough nut to crack. But in the world, Benedict's reputation among Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Eastern religions is high.

Francis has carried on Benedict's work in Christian unity. He has unraveled some of our efforts to restore Catholic faith and sacred liturgy in our dioceses. He has been a mixed bag.
And just how exactly has Pope Francis unraveled “our efforts” to restore faith and liturgy? While I do at times find disagreement with him over things, I have seen nothing that fundamentally destroys faith and liturgy. Some may find it easier to carry on “the spirit of Vat II perhaps, which is problematic no doubt. But the purpose of the Pope’s wasn’t for that, but rather, to enable a more authentic faith and liturgy as needed locally.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:01 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:04 am
+JMJ+

Pope Francis taps loyalists for key roles in Synod of Bishops
Among the pope’s appointees are Cardinals Reinhard Marx of Munich and President of the German bishops’ conference; Blase Cupich of Chicago; Joseph Tobin of Newark, NJ and Angelo De Donatis, Vicar of the Diocese of Rome, all of whom, apart from Marx, got their red hat from Francis. All are seen as close papal confidants.

Also noteworthy are Francis’s appointments of Father Antonio Spadaro, director of Jesuit-run journal La Civilta’ Cattolica and a close papal friend, and Father Michael Czerny, undersecretary for the migrants and refugees section of the dicastery for Integral Human Development, which is overseen by Francis directly.
The usual suspects.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:04 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:57 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:41 am
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here. Some of the Trads are schismatic in their hearts. They may be “right” about a lot of things, but they are also trying to “take down” the one God chose to fill the role of St. Peter. Being critical of Papal activity is one thing, to unilaterally call for his resignation on hearsay information is quite another.
Among those who are working to "politicize" the Catholic Church, there are some calling for Pope Francis to resign. It is a small group.

There is also a very loud bunch of leftists in the Church -- who are emboldened by Francis, whether it is his fault or not. They are making a megaphone of the smaller group.

Note all of the links here.... not one that actually calls for Pope Francis to resign. But a whole bunch of links complaining about some nameless "others" who want Francis to resign.

Out in the real world -- I can't name any bishops who working to "oust" Francis. I doubt they exist.

Even Vigano is not maneuvering politically to see Francis removed. He did "call for Francis to resign," after confessing that Francis was aware and complicit in the homosexual cabals that made victims of many young priests who homosexual (or who dared to speak up against the gay sexual activity). But Vigano has not made appearances and speeches, organizing resistance and spreading petitions. He isn't working to oust Francis.

Michael Voris is stridently calling for Francis to resign, and the cast of usual suspects.
I agree that in the real world few are looking to oust the Pope. It certainly isn’t coming up in serious conversation around me. Vigano incited such behavior from the minority who are, just like some EWTN people try talking out of two sides of their mouths.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:16 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:42 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
Whether inside or out, it is important to know that John Paul II devoted his entire pontificate to the authentic implementation of Vatican II.

The Council had been hijacked by social reformers, the "Spirit of Vatican II." The reality of Vatican II was focused on calling the world to holiness, ecumenical and missionary outreach, and a deep return to Scripture and Tradition -- the source of our faith.

There wasn't supposed to be a re-write of the Mass.... or wreckovation of our churches and altars.... or an infusion of goofiness into our music.... or an embrace of the world's sexual immorality.

John Paul II was exactly what Vatican II was supposed to be.

Benedict XVI continued the work of the Church. Plus.... He was profoundly focused on bringing all of the world's Christians together. His work in "ecumenical outreach" was the most astounding since the Reformation. We didn't see much of this, because American Evangelicalism is such a tough nut to crack. But in the world, Benedict's reputation among Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Eastern religions is high.

Francis has carried on Benedict's work in Christian unity. He has unraveled some of our efforts to restore Catholic faith and sacred liturgy in our dioceses. He has been a mixed bag.
And just how exactly has Pope Francis unraveled “our efforts” to restore faith and liturgy? While I do at times find disagreement with him over things, I have seen nothing that fundamentally destroys faith and liturgy. Some may find it easier to carry on “the spirit of Vat II perhaps, which is problematic no doubt. But the purpose of the Pope’s wasn’t for that, but rather, to enable a more authentic faith and liturgy as needed locally.
Francis has not done anything overt to mess with Sacred Liturgy. We got a glimpse when he remarked that the Latin Mass was for the nostalgia of very old people. He does not seem to understand that most of the folks to seek out the Latin Mass are young families with many young children.

We see Francis's mind toward faith and worship mainly by his choices of bishops and cardinals.

For example:
- Removing Cardinal Burke from the Office of Bishops (those charged with selecting new bishops for the world), and replacing him with Wuerl.
- Refusing to give Archbishop Chaput of Philadelphia a Red Hat.

- Moving Bishop Cupich to Chicago and making him a Cardinal.
When Cupich was bishop of Spokane, WA, he prohibited his priests from praying at an abortion clinic, supporting a 40 Days for Life vigil in any way (such as a pulpit announcement), and he prohibited the display of any pro-life brochures among the parish information. He also prohibited Eucharistic Adoration anywhere in the diocese.

It was difficult to understand Francis's thinking in those decisions. And for me, Vigano's letter just gave me so much more to be confused about.

I don't know if Francis should stay or resign.... but I do wish that he would explain how he came to so many questionable decisions about who should lead us.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:33 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:57 pm
Del wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:42 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:26 pm
durangopipe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:29 am
Meanwhile, Francis’s critics will keep turning their wheels and demanding answers about … something. In these circles, Viganò will continue to be lauded as a brave and honorable man. They don’t want answers, they want to take down a pope.
From the outside...

it does appear that this is, in fact, the case - that Francis is attempting to revive and extend the reforms of Vatican II, and that traditionalists opposed to those reforms are doing everything they can to bring this pope down.

The terrible, terrible scandal of worldwide sexual abuse by clergy (in many different manifestations) overlies and in some ways muddies this other, fundamental conflict over doctrine and Church reform.

Again, from the outside, Francis’s embrace of ecumenical outreach and reform appear profoundly necessary and commendable.
It is really two different issues. There were abusive priests long before Vatican II. What the spirit Vatican II did was to embolden the network of abusive priests through the downgrading of orthodox church teachings. Many "reforms" found in individual diocese cannot be found in Vatican II. Bishops and their Liturgists simply "rolled their own" to the point of excluding Sin in order to promote warm fuzziness.
Whether inside or out, it is important to know that John Paul II devoted his entire pontificate to the authentic implementation of Vatican II.

The Council had been hijacked by social reformers, the "Spirit of Vatican II." The reality of Vatican II was focused on calling the world to holiness, ecumenical and missionary outreach, and a deep return to Scripture and Tradition -- the source of our faith.

There wasn't supposed to be a re-write of the Mass.... or wreckovation of our churches and altars.... or an infusion of goofiness into our music.... or an embrace of the world's sexual immorality.

John Paul II was exactly what Vatican II was supposed to be.

Benedict XVI continued the work of the Church. Plus.... He was profoundly focused on bringing all of the world's Christians together. His work in "ecumenical outreach" was the most astounding since the Reformation. We didn't see much of this, because American Evangelicalism is such a tough nut to crack. But in the world, Benedict's reputation among Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Eastern religions is high.

Francis has carried on Benedict's work in Christian unity. He has unraveled some of our efforts to restore Catholic faith and sacred liturgy in our dioceses. He has been a mixed bag.
And just how exactly has Pope Francis unraveled “our efforts” to restore faith and liturgy? While I do at times find disagreement with him over things, I have seen nothing that fundamentally destroys faith and liturgy. Some may find it easier to carry on “the spirit of Vat II perhaps, which is problematic no doubt. But the purpose of the Pope’s wasn’t for that, but rather, to enable a more authentic faith and liturgy as needed locally.
Francis has not done anything overt to mess with Sacred Liturgy. We got a glimpse when he remarked that the Latin Mass was for the nostalgia of very old people. He does not seem to understand that most of the folks to seek out the Latin Mass are young families with many young children.
He made the mistake of equating “old” with tradition. Sadly, I don’t have a Latin Mass near me here in Texas. I enjoyed that from time to time in California. It was certainly a mixed bag who attended, but all preferred the old ways over the somewhat post modern vanilla way the local authorities adopted to bring a multi enthnic church together.
We see Francis's mind toward faith and worship mainly by his choices of bishops and cardinals.

For example:
- Removing Cardinal Burke from the Office of Bishops (those charged with selecting new bishops for the world), and replacing him with Wuerl.
- Refusing to give Archbishop Chaput of Philadelphia a Red Hat.

- Moving Bishop Cupich to Chicago and making him a Cardinal.
When Cupich was bishop of Spokane, WA, he prohibited his priests from praying at an abortion clinic, supporting a 40 Days for Life vigil in any way (such as a pulpit announcement), and he prohibited the display of any pro-life brochures among the parish information. He also prohibited Eucharistic Adoration anywhere in the diocese.

It was difficult to understand Francis's thinking in those decisions. And for me, Vigano's letter just gave me so much more to be confused about.

I don't know if Francis should stay or resign.... but I do wish that he would explain how he came to so many questionable decisions about who should lead us.
Cardinal Cupich seems to be aware of the perceptions people have and seeks to take a less brazen approach to protest. For right or for wrong. . . I think Catholics can sincerely and rightfully disagree on these things. Of course, brazen is needed in dealing with evil whether protesting or not! Cardinal Cupich is aware of the layers of evil and hurt behind abortions!

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:37 pm

This is difficult to discuss because the likelihood of gossip and causing scandal is ever present.
What we do know is there is a criminal sub culture that exists in the church hierarchy and there are legitimate and grave charges of homosexual rape, pedophilia, and rape.
We also know that whistle blowers from within the ranks of young priests have been severely reprimanded by their Bishops.
We also know that innocent priests have been charged with crimes they didn't commit, while other priests who have committed crimes have been protected from prosecution by being shuttled around, or undergone some form(dubious) therapy. It appears to be matter of whose episcopal side a priest finds himself.
We also know that Pope Francis hasn't responded to the crisis with any backbone until now, and appointing his cohorts ---especially naming Cardinal Cupich to assist in the conduct of the investigation is unacceptable to many Catholics.
Nor is this simply a dispute between Traditionalists and Progressives for control over the chair of St Peter. It is a fight between the Church and sexual predators over control of the Curia, seminaries and dioceses world-wide.

That's my understanding, anyway.
The Church has survived worse over the past 2,000 years
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:43 am

+JMJ+

Pope Francis: Discipleship takes sacrifice
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Pope Francis shows a crucifix during the Angelus noon Angelus prayer he delivers from the window of his studio overlooking St. Peter's Square at the Vatican, Sunday, Sept. 16, 2018. Tens of thousands of faithful have been treated to gifts from the pontiff, tiny crucifixes, distributed by nuns, refugees and some of Rome's homeless and poor after the pope’s traditional Sunday appearance to pilgrims and tourists in the square. (Credit: Alessandra Tarantino/AP)

ROME — A fundamental rule of being a disciple of Christ is the necessity to make sacrifices and deny one’s self, Pope Francis said in his Angelus address Sunday.

“Jesus tells us that in order to follow him, to be his disciples, one must deny oneself — that is, the claims of one’s own selfish pride — and take up one’s very cross,” the pope said Sept. 16. “Then he gives everyone a fundamental rule. And what is this rule? ‘Whoever wants to save his life will lose it.’”

To have faith, he said, must go further than mere words — it must lead to concrete actions and choices, “marked by love of God, by a great life, by a life with so much love for neighbor.”

The pope explained that for many reasons, people may end up on the wrong path, “looking for happiness only in things, or in the people we treat as things.”

“But we find happiness only when love, real [love], meets us, surprises us, changes us. Love changes everything! And love can change us too, each of us. The testimonies of the saints demonstrate this,” he said.

Francis said that the Lord wants his disciples to have a personal relationship with him and to make him the center of their lives. Like Jesus asks to his disciples in the day’s Gospel: “Who do you say that I am?”

“Everyone is called to respond, in his own heart, letting himself be illuminated by the light that the Father gives us to know his Son Jesus,” he said. And like Peter, one might confirm enthusiastically, that he is Christ.”

“But when Jesus tells us clearly what he said to the disciples, namely that his mission is accomplished not in the broad road of success, but in the arduous path of the suffering, humiliated, rejected and crucified Servant,” then it can be easy to want to protest and rebel, like Peter did, he said.

He said: In these moments, Christians deserve the same reproof Jesus gave Peter: “Get behind me, Satan. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

After the Angelus, in honor of the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, celebrated by the Church on Sept. 14, Pope Francis distributed small metal crucifixes to those present in St. Peter’s Square.

“The crucifix is the sign of God’s love, which in Jesus gave life for us. I invite you to welcome this gift and bring it into your homes, your children’s room, or your grandparents…, in any part, but in the house,” he said.

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:46 pm

+JMJ+

Cardinal Condemns “Unfair” Viganò “Rebellion” Against Pope
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Cardinal Marc Ouellet (Mazur/catholicnews.org.uk/Flickr)

“A very bad example” and “a very serious offense”, not to mention a “not positive” answer to the abuse crisis and “an unfair attack”. Not mincing his words, Cardinal Marc Ouellet has condemned the “rebellion” against Pope Francis of Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò and his ultraconservative co-conspirators. A “serious” issue, according to the cardinal, that must be resolved in a “spiritual” way, not a “political” one.

The Canadian prelate, Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops in the Vatican, was speaking on the sidelines of the Plenary Assembly of the European Bishops in Poznań, Poland.

“We are facing a crisis in the life of the Church”, Ouellet acknowledged, referring to the sexual abuse scandal that has exploded in the Catholic Church around the world, from Germany to Australia, and just this weekend extended to the Netherlands, where 20 of the 39 bishops active from 1945 to 2010 have been accused of the cover-up of as many as 20,000 sex crimes against children committed by priests and religious.

According to Ouellet, the sex abuse crisis is one being felt “at the level of leadership, of the bishops”. But beyond prescribing possible solutions to the problem, the cardinal went so far as to issue a clear warning to those prelates (and priests and faithful) who think that everything will be fixed by blaming, investigating or even sacking Pope Francis.

“To express solidarity with the Holy Father… is a conditio sine qua non of solidarity between ourselves as bishops to bring forward the mission of the Church”, the cardinal stressed in this regard.

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:07 am

+JMJ+

Episcopalis Communio gives the Synod Of Bishops teaching authority
Image

Wake up and smell the newest apostolic constitution from the Holy Father: Episcopalis Communio. Released Tuesday morning, it re-writes some of the rules for the Synod of Bishops. The stand-out feature is that it for the first time invests the Synod with formal teaching authority. Instead of simply submitting recommendations to the pope (usually but not always publicly), the Synod will produce a final document, co-signed by the pope, that will of itself constitute “ordinary magisterium.”

That’s the hot take; now let’s get into the theological weeds.

What is Episcopalis Communio?

It’s an apostolic constitution, which is the ordinary means by which a pope establishes new rules for the Catholic Church, of which he is the visible and earthly head, possessing “supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power” (CIC, can. 331). The most common use is to create a new (arch)diocese. This is Pope Francis’s 17th such document. The previous one, from December, revised the rules for “ecclesiastical universities and faculties” (such as, for example, CUA’s School of Theology, from which I received my Ph.D.).

What does it do?

It issues updated rules for how the Synod of Bishops functions. The most recent update was made in 2006 by Benedict XVI. Only the most serious of church-watchers will be interested in the legal minutiae.

Then why does it matter?

In addition to rules, it re-defines the nature of the Synod of Bishops! Established in 1965 by Pope Paul VI, as a direct result of Vatican II, the Synod of Bishops was a mechanism for greater collaboration of the world’s bishops in the government of the Catholic Church. Since the 19th century, the Catholic Church has been centrally governed by the Pope and his court (called the Roman curia). … The rapid centralization of the Catholic Church in the 19th century led to a diminution of the broader episcopate. Bishops were gradually reduced to glorified legates or vicars of the pope, rather than overseers of the Church and “vicars of Christ” in their own right (see Lumen Gentium 27). One of the main contributions of Vatican II was to dispel this mindset and to promote, at least in theory, the collegial governance of the Church (see Lumen Gentium, chapter 3). The Synod of Bishops was one practical way to go about this, so that the pope could regularly consult with bishops from all around the world in a formal council. He would listen to the bishops, receive their advice and recommendations, and then decide what to do on his own authority as pope.

[…]


Under Pope Francis, the Synod of Bishops has become far more important, with a spirit of free and even at times combative debate among the bishops. Now, the pope has made a big step toward bringing about real collegial governance, at least in the matter of teaching. Instead of just giving advice, the Synod will produce a final document, and “If expressly approved by the Roman Pontiff, the final document participates in the ordinary Magisterium of the Successor of Peter” (Episcopalis Communio 18 §1). In other words, the final document will be a doctrinal text on the same level as the “post-synodal apostolic exhortations” that the popes themselves wrote and published after previous synods (including Francis’s own Evangelii Gaudium and Amoris Laetitia). In other words, future Synods’ final documents will be authoritative for the Catholic Church. This is, then, the death of the papal “post-synodal apostolic exhortation” and the birth of a new magisterial genre: the final document of the Synod of Bishops.

But can’t the pope just say no?

Yes, of course. The document must be “expressly approved.” Does that mean the Synod will still be under the control and say-so of the pope? Well, yes, of course it will. This is the Catholic Church! Not even an ecumenical council can contradict the pope: by definition, in Catholicism, an ecumenical council acts “with and under” (cum et sub) the pope, who is the head of the college of bishops (see Lumen Gentium 22; Episcopalis Communio 1). …

Is the Synod of Bishops now basically an ongoing ecumenical council?

No, the document is explicit that the Synod’s authority will be part of the Roman (papal) magisterium. The pope will co-sign the document with his own name. As such, the Synod of Bishops will remain an essentially papal institution. But it gives the papacy a much broader scope, as it works in direct collaboration with representatives of the entire episcopate. An ecumenical council, in contrast, possesses its own authority, albeit one that can never be in contradiction to papal authority since the pope is the head of the college of bishops (Lumen Gentium 22).

Final thoughts

One thing that I don’t see here is the pope giving the Synod of Bishops the direct ability to legislate. They now will have magisterial authority, but it does not say they will be able to issue changes to canon law. The pope remains the sole lawgiver, it seems. They could, of course, say things that imply a need for a change of law, which the pope could then enact.

Due to extreme polarization and other factors, the anti-Francis faction within the Church may reject this development. …

But there is hope! If you read the new document, you will see that Pope Francis strongly emphasizes the necessity of bishops, not only to teach, but first to listen:

[…]

This move towards collaborative governance also brings with it a repeated emphasis that the bishops listen to and live with the people:

[…]

I believe that is the future for Catholic teaching. If few anymore will listen to the pope alone, neither, I think, will they listen to the pope with the Synod of Bishops. But if the pope and the bishops really immerse themselves in the life of ordinary Catholics and learn to speak our language and understand our lives, problems, and concerns, then we will listen to them again. (It should be mentioned that the new document also makes some room for the participation of laypeople in the Synod.) …

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:28 am

I am unable to discern whether you think this sort of thing is very good or very bad.

But it seems that you mostly post articles from the political-leftist-schismatic writers.

This is useful sometimes -- they are quite strident about immigration concerns, shared in common with quietly faithful Catholics. But guys like Michael Sean Winters and the author of article seem to view the Catholic Church more as a useful tool toward advancing their politics -- rather than God's gift, established by Christ, for the salvation of the world.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:45 am

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:28 am
[…]

… But guys like [fill in the blank] seem to view the Catholic Church more as a useful tool toward advancing their politics …
Image
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