I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:26 pm

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"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 pm

Pope demotes two cardinals over sexual abuse scandals
Australia's George Pell and Chile's Francisco Javier Errazuriz will no longer sit on the Council of Cardinals, set up by the pope as an international advice body.

The pair were absent from the last meeting of the group in September.

A spokesperson said the Pope wrote to them both in October to thank them.

Cardinal Pell, who remains the Vatican treasurer, faces trial on sexual abuse charges in Australia - accusations the cardinal strenuously denies.

His Chilean colleague, Francisco Javier Errazuriz, faces accusations that he covered up alleged child abuse while serving as Archbishop of Santiago, claims he also denies.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:21 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 pm
Pope demotes two cardinals over sexual abuse scandals
Australia's George Pell and Chile's Francisco Javier Errazuriz will no longer sit on the Council of Cardinals, set up by the pope as an international advice body.

The pair were absent from the last meeting of the group in September.

A spokesperson said the Pope wrote to them both in October to thank them.

Cardinal Pell, who remains the Vatican treasurer, faces trial on sexual abuse charges in Australia - accusations the cardinal strenuously denies.

His Chilean colleague, Francisco Javier Errazuriz, faces accusations that he covered up alleged child abuse while serving as Archbishop of Santiago, claims he also denies.
Nothing says action like waiting until Pell was found guilty by a secular court and then dropping him from your inner council a day later.

Oh, now you're getting serious about this, Frank?
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm

tuttle wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:21 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:59 pm
Pope demotes two cardinals over sexual abuse scandals
Australia's George Pell and Chile's Francisco Javier Errazuriz will no longer sit on the Council of Cardinals, set up by the pope as an international advice body.

The pair were absent from the last meeting of the group in September.

A spokesperson said the Pope wrote to them both in October to thank them.

Cardinal Pell, who remains the Vatican treasurer, faces trial on sexual abuse charges in Australia - accusations the cardinal strenuously denies.

His Chilean colleague, Francisco Javier Errazuriz, faces accusations that he covered up alleged child abuse while serving as Archbishop of Santiago, claims he also denies.
Nothing says action like waiting until Pell was found guilty by a secular court and then dropping him from your inner council a day later.

Oh, now you're getting serious about this, Frank?
You know it's hard times when tuttle is right. That was even hard to type. :)

Surprised we haven't seen Onyx yet. He could tell us what happened in the Star Chamber. That man was tried in secret.


Also, unrelated. Decided to peruse America, having never read a Jesuit publication before. Simcha Fisher is effing annoying.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:06 pm

+JMJ+

Pope Francis begs for end to death penalty through an ethic of caring
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Pope Francis meets members of the International Commission against the Death PenaltyPope Francis meets members of the International Commission against the Death Penalty

Pope Francis begs countries who “continue to apply the death penalty” to “adopt a moratorium”, in prepared remarks on Monday to members of the International Commission against the Death Penalty.

Pope Francis received in audience members of the International Commission against the Death Penalty on Monday. In prepared remarks which were given to members of the Commission, Pope Francis begged countries still applying the death penalty to “adopt a moratorium”.

Every life is sacred

Since the beginning of his ministry, Pope Francis told Commission members, the truth that “every life is sacred” had convinced him to commit himself to abolishing the death penalty at the international level. This commitment became concrete, the Pope said, with the recent change of paragraph 2267 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. He said Church teaching now reflects “the doctrine of the latest Pontiffs as well as the change in the conscience of Christians who reject a penalty that seriously harms human dignity”. Pope Francis reiterated that the doctrine accepting the death penalty came from a “period that was more legalistic than Christian” which “ignored the primacy of mercy over justice”. The Pope affirmed the Church’s current teaching that “in the light of the Gospel, the death penalty is always inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”.

Moral rehabilitation

At the same time, an ongoing prison sentence that does not allow the moral rehabilitation of the person and his or her reinsertion into the community is a “hidden death”, Pope Francis said. No one can be deprived either of life, or the hope of “redemption and reconciliation”, he said.

Obligation of nations

The Church’s commitment to opposing the death penalty needs to be equalled by the international community, Pope Francis continued. The sovereign right of nations to determine their legal systems cannot be in contradiction with international law or “the universal recognition of human dignity, the Pope said. He also praised the UN’s resolution encouraging that member nations “suspend the application of the death penalty”.

[…]

Commitment to abolition of death penalty

Returning to the theme of the abolition of the death penalty, Pope Francis’ prepared remarks concluded with a declaration that both the Church and the Holy See desire “to collaborate with the International Commission against the Death Penalty in building the necessary consensus to eradicate capital punishment and every form of cruel punishment. “It is a cause”, he said, “that all men and women of good will are called to and it is a duty for those of us who share the Christian vocation of Baptism”.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:27 pm

I come in humility, asking for help. Not seeking argument, but looking to be proved wrong.

How does the change to the teaching on the death penalty not break the old maxim of quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus creditum est?

I dont see how I can read the same sense into it as that which came before. "Sometimes the death penalty is permissible" can not be read in the same sense as "the death penalty is always impermissible."

Its clever placement, too. The death penalty isnt a hill anyone is willing to die on. It's ugly, it is messy, it's something most dislike on some level and very few champion as God's will. It's a great place to lay the seed for future harvest. Now that we've broken the magisterium, we can have a lot of fun.

I'm hoping I'm way off base.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:00 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:27 pm
I come in humility, asking for help. Not seeking argument, but looking to be proved wrong.

How does the change to the teaching on the death penalty not break the old maxim of quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus creditum est?

I dont see how I can read the same sense into it as that which came before. "Sometimes the death penalty is permissible" can not be read in the same sense as "the death penalty is always impermissible."

Its clever placement, too. The death penalty isnt a hill anyone is willing to die on. It's ugly, it is messy, it's something most dislike on some level and very few champion as God's will. It's a great place to lay the seed for future harvest. Now that we've broken the magisterium, we can have a lot of fun.

I'm hoping I'm way off base.
I’m with you. :confused:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:38 pm

+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:00 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:27 pm
I come in humility, asking for help. Not seeking argument, but looking to be proved wrong.

How does the change to the teaching on the death penalty not break the old maxim of quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus creditum est?

I dont see how I can read the same sense into it as that which came before. "Sometimes the death penalty is permissible" can not be read in the same sense as "the death penalty is always impermissible."

Its clever placement, too. The death penalty isnt a hill anyone is willing to die on. It's ugly, it is messy, it's something most dislike on some level and very few champion as God's will. It's a great place to lay the seed for future harvest. Now that we've broken the magisterium, we can have a lot of fun.

I'm hoping I'm way off base.
I’m with you. :confused:
The following represents my contributions to the convo when the topic was discussed last summer. Skimming them quickly, I'd say that — other than a couple of emendations I'd make to the first post in the series — they represent my settled thought on the subject. Maybe they'll be of help.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:13 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:38 pm
+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:00 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:27 pm
I come in humility, asking for help. Not seeking argument, but looking to be proved wrong.

How does the change to the teaching on the death penalty not break the old maxim of quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus creditum est?

I dont see how I can read the same sense into it as that which came before. "Sometimes the death penalty is permissible" can not be read in the same sense as "the death penalty is always impermissible."

Its clever placement, too. The death penalty isnt a hill anyone is willing to die on. It's ugly, it is messy, it's something most dislike on some level and very few champion as God's will. It's a great place to lay the seed for future harvest. Now that we've broken the magisterium, we can have a lot of fun.

I'm hoping I'm way off base.
I’m with you. :confused:
The following represents my contributions to the convo when the topic was discussed last summer. Skimming them quickly, I'd say that — other than a couple of emendations I'd make to the first post in the series — they represent my settled thought on the subject. Maybe they'll be of help.
You'd make a very fine Jesuit, Wos. :D
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:32 am

+JMJ+

Scapegoating migrants in political speeches is unacceptable, pope says [In-Depth]
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Protesters supporting the migrant caravan in Tijuana, Mexico, march next to the border wall with Mexico in San Diego. (CNS/Mike Blake, Reuters)

Vatican City — In today's climate of mistrust, rejection and nationalism, the world urgently needs peacemakers and politicians who protect and lovingly serve others, Pope Francis said in his annual message for the World Day of Peace Jan. 1.

"Terror exerted over those who are most vulnerable contributes to the exile of entire populations who seek a place of peace," he said, and "political addresses that tend to blame every evil on migrants and to deprive the poor of hope are unacceptable."

Instead, political life can and should be "an outstanding form of charity" when it is exercised with a "basic respect for the life, freedom and dignity of persons," the pope said.

Holding political office and having political responsibility "constantly challenge those called to the service of their country to make every effort to protect those who live there and to create the conditions for a worthy and just future," he said.

"One thing is certain: good politics is at the service of peace," Pope Francis wrote. "It respects and promotes fundamental human rights, which are at the same time mutual obligations, enabling a bond of trust and gratitude to be forged between present and future generations."

The pope's message, which focused on "good politics at the service of peace," was released Dec. 18 at a Vatican news conference led by Cardinal Peter Turkson, prefect of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development.

[…]

In his message, Pope Francis said politics is the essential path for building up a "human community and institutions, but when political life is not seen as a form of service to society as a whole, it can become a means of oppression, marginalization and even destruction."

"The thirst for power at any price leads to abuses and injustice," he said, highlighting the harm caused by "political vices."

[…]

Such vices include "xenophobia, racism, lack of concern for the natural environment, the plundering of natural resources for the sake of quick profit and contempt for those forced into exile," he said. They also include many forms of corruption: "the misappropriation of public resources, the exploitation of individuals, the denial of rights, the flouting of community rules, dishonest gain, the justification of power by force or the arbitrary appeal" to national interests and the "refusal to relinquish power."

War and "the strategy of fear" are also contrary to politics at the service of peace, he said.

[…]

Image
A protester offers flowers to French riot police during a demonstration by the "yellow vests" movement in Paris. They were protesting the French government's reform plan. (CNS/Gonzalo Fuentes, Reuters)

The pope praised all those who work to protect and defend the rights and dignity of children living in areas of conflict, saying, "one out of every six children in our world is affected by the violence of war or its effects."

The mood in many countries, he said, is marked by "mistrust rooted in the fear of others or of strangers, or anxiety about one's personal security."

"Sadly," he said, "it is also seen at the political level, in attitudes of rejection or forms of nationalism that call into question the fraternity of which our globalized world has such great need."

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:47 am

+JMJ+

Pope doesn’t back down from skepticism about gays in priesthood
Image
Pope Francis looks at the statue of the Virgin Mary near Rome's Spanish Steps, Saturday, Dec. 8, 2018, an annual tradition marking the start of the city's holiday season. (Credit: AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

In a book recently published in Spanish that will soon come out in English, Pope Francis is quoted saying that having gays in the clergy “is something that worries me,” remarking that some societies consider homosexuality a “fashionable” life style.

The comments made a splash, with some saying that it contradicts the gay-friendly image of the “Who am I to judge?” pope, while for others, it was a reinstatement of their belief that the Argentine pontiff is an anti-gay pope due to his repeated criticism of what he calls “gender ideology.”

The book from which those remarks were drawn, The Strength of Vocation, came to be after a four-hour interview Francis granted Spanish missionary priest Fernando Prado, who said he arrived for their scheduled meeting with 60 questions. The conversation took place Aug. 4 in the Santa Marta residence which is within Vatican grounds and where Francis has lived since the beginning of his pontificate.

[…]

The priest has known the pope for several years now, as he was the editor of the Spanish editions of books compiling all the speeches and writings of then-Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio when Francis was the archbishop of Buenos Aires.

“I wasn’t surprised by the pope’s response to the question regarding homosexuals having access to the priesthood,” he said. “He doesn’t say anything beyond what the social doctrine of the Church says. And some in the gay world, the LGTBI community or gay lobby- because I believe there is a gay lobby that puts pressure worldwide, internationally, nationally and also in the ecclesial world- were disappointed because they had misunderstood other statements that the pope made earlier.”

“The Church has to welcome [gay] people, accompany them,” Prado said. “But one thing is to welcome people, another is to say that they have the right to be priests. First of all, no one has the right to be priests. It’s a call that comes from God that the Church confirms, and the Church sets the standard.”

“I don’t know why people are surprised that he’s Catholic,” Prado said of Francis. “He hasn’t said anything that is not part of traditional doctrine.”

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:06 pm

You, yes you, could win the Pope's Lamborghini!

Signed and blessed by the Pope himself!
YOU AND A FRIEND WILL:

Win a custom Lamborghini Huracán RWD Coupé, blessed and autographed by Pope Francis (just for you, sorry friend!)
Receive the keys to your new car during a private ceremony in the presence of Pope Francis and Lamborghini CEO, Stefano Domenicali
Image
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:31 pm

Or, the American Protestant Way

Hells Yeah I Bought My Wife a Lambo Outta Church....uh, Yeah!

Edit. Hah. I'm a fool. Also, still laughing at signed papal lambo.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by durangopipe » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:51 pm

tuttle wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:06 pm
You, yes you, could win the Pope's Lamborghini!

Signed and blessed by the Pope himself!
YOU AND A FRIEND WILL:

Win a custom Lamborghini Huracán RWD Coupé, blessed and autographed by Pope Francis (just for you, sorry friend!)
Receive the keys to your new car during a private ceremony in the presence of Pope Francis and Lamborghini CEO, Stefano Domenicali
Image
I’ve always loved the white with gold trim outfit.
















The Pope’s outfit is pretty cool, too!
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:31 pm
Or, the American Protestant Way

Hells Yeah I Bought My Wife a Lambo Outta Church....uh, Yeah!

Edit. Hah. I'm a fool. Also, still laughing at signed papal lambo.
That's kind of why I thought it was funny. I know it's for a good cause, but it's kind of hilarious how it reflects a little of the stupid antics of American Protestants. Now if the Pope really wants to flip the switch, he'd use this as a way to get butts into the pews. He really missed an opportunity there.

I know someone who attended a church because they raffled a flatscreen T.V.... Yeesh.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Jester » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:51 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:31 pm
Or, the American Protestant Way

Hells Yeah I Bought My Wife a Lambo Outta Church....uh, Yeah!

Edit. Hah. I'm a fool. Also, still laughing at signed papal lambo.
That's kind of why I thought it was funny. I know it's for a good cause, but it's kind of hilarious how it reflects a little of the stupid antics of American Protestants. Now if the Pope really wants to flip the switch, he'd use this as a way to get butts into the pews. He really missed an opportunity there.

I know someone who attended a church because they raffled a flatscreen T.V.... Yeesh.
What kind of church raffles off things?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:20 am

Jester wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:51 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:31 pm
Or, the American Protestant Way

Hells Yeah I Bought My Wife a Lambo Outta Church....uh, Yeah!

Edit. Hah. I'm a fool. Also, still laughing at signed papal lambo.
That's kind of why I thought it was funny. I know it's for a good cause, but it's kind of hilarious how it reflects a little of the stupid antics of American Protestants. Now if the Pope really wants to flip the switch, he'd use this as a way to get butts into the pews. He really missed an opportunity there.

I know someone who attended a church because they raffled a flatscreen T.V.... Yeesh.
What kind of church raffles off things?
What kind of church doesnt? :D
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Kerdy » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:50 am

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:59 am
The Pope: how the Church will change
He smiles again and replies: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good."
Just out of curiosity, are you still liking this Pope?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:58 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:51 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:31 pm
Or, the American Protestant Way

Hells Yeah I Bought My Wife a Lambo Outta Church....uh, Yeah!

Edit. Hah. I'm a fool. Also, still laughing at signed papal lambo.
That's kind of why I thought it was funny. I know it's for a good cause, but it's kind of hilarious how it reflects a little of the stupid antics of American Protestants. Now if the Pope really wants to flip the switch, he'd use this as a way to get butts into the pews. He really missed an opportunity there.

I know someone who attended a church because they raffled a flatscreen T.V.... Yeesh.
What kind of church raffles off things?
Yeah, right? Church is for BINGO!
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:47 pm

Del wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:58 pm
Jester wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:51 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:31 pm
Or, the American Protestant Way

Hells Yeah I Bought My Wife a Lambo Outta Church....uh, Yeah!

Edit. Hah. I'm a fool. Also, still laughing at signed papal lambo.
That's kind of why I thought it was funny. I know it's for a good cause, but it's kind of hilarious how it reflects a little of the stupid antics of American Protestants. Now if the Pope really wants to flip the switch, he'd use this as a way to get butts into the pews. He really missed an opportunity there.

I know someone who attended a church because they raffled a flatscreen T.V.... Yeesh.
What kind of church raffles off things?
Yeah, right? Church is for BINGO!
And Monte Carlo Night.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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