I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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tuttle
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:31 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:08 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:50 am
Does Sentire cum ecclesia equal Sentire cum pontifex?
sentire cum ecclesia
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Do you believe everything the Church teaches?

But do you really?

When candidates make their profession at the Easter Vigil, they are asked, “Do you believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God?”

The question cannot really be asking, “Do you in fact have specific knowledge of each and every thing that the Church teaches? If so, do you assent to those teachings?” It’s not as if there’s a checklist somewhere that lists “all” the Church’s teachings, with each candidate affirming them line by line. Candidates entering the Church aren’t made to swear on the Catechism.

Certainly, this is not what is meant by the candidates’ profession. What is being asked of the candidate is more like, “Would you?” If given the opportunity to do so in public or private, would you “believe and profess” with the Church?

One phrase that captures this principle is, “to think with the Church;” or, in St. Ignatius of Loyola’s formulation, sentire cum ecclesia. Sentire, of course, is not simply “to think,” which in English is often meant in a cold, rational way. Other words that are used to translate sentire are sense, feel, and perceive. “Feel” is a great translation that can also carry connotations of “think” except that “feel” can also imply the lack of rational thought.

What does it really mean to “think with the Church”?

[…]
I'm asking because there seems to be a divide within Catholicism. Many are concerned where Francis is leading, and others are lockstep with him. All of which, insofar as I can tell, are doing so out of devotion to the truth and their love for the Church.

So I ask because it seems your answer, that you are thinking/feeling with the Church, could apply to both 'sides', those concerned about the Pope and those on board with him. Does thinking/feeling with the Pope equate to thinking/feeling with the Church? Because if it does, I get ya. If it doesn't, am I to assume every Catholic who disagrees with the Pope is out of step with the Church?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:27 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:31 am
… [A]m I to assume every Catholic who disagrees with the Pope is out of step with the Church?
Seems to me that you'll have to wait to find out just like everyone else.

IOW, you know the drill. #1521A.D.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am
Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan.

.....

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am
+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
[partisan article affirming the Amazon synod/condemning the critics]
Can I assume that your personal take on this lines up with the article?

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
I always have to click Wozzie's links to see who published it.

Be aware that National Catholic Reporter has been disavowed by the bishops of Kansas City, one after the other, since 1968. Simply: They aren't affiliated with the Catholic Church, and they are no way authorized to call themselves "Catholic."

Better to think of them as a subversive left-wing plot to sow dissent within the Catholic faithful.

Best to think of them as a joke and a laughingstock.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 am

Del wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am
Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan.

.....

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am
+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
[partisan article affirming the Amazon synod/condemning the critics]
Can I assume that your personal take on this lines up with the article?

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
I always have to click Wozzie's links to see who published it.

Be aware that National Catholic Reporter has been disavowed by the bishops of Kansas City, one after the other, since 1968. Simply: They aren't affiliated with the Catholic Church, and they are no way authorized to call themselves "Catholic."

Better to think of them as a subversive left-wing plot to sow dissent within the Catholic faithful.

Best to think of them as a joke and a laughingstock.
So the National Catholic Reporter doesn't sentire cum ecclesia?

:lol:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:05 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 am
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am
Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan.

.....

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am
+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
[partisan article affirming the Amazon synod/condemning the critics]
Can I assume that your personal take on this lines up with the article?

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
I always have to click Wozzie's links to see who published it.

Be aware that National Catholic Reporter has been disavowed by the bishops of Kansas City, one after the other, since 1968. Simply: They aren't affiliated with the Catholic Church, and they are no way authorized to call themselves "Catholic."

Better to think of them as a subversive left-wing plot to sow dissent within the Catholic faithful.

Best to think of them as a joke and a laughingstock.
So the National Catholic Reporter doesn't sentire cum ecclesia?

:lol:
Oh yes, they do....

They say so themselves, and they should know.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:30 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:05 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 am
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am
Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan.

.....

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am
+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
[partisan article affirming the Amazon synod/condemning the critics]
Can I assume that your personal take on this lines up with the article?

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
I always have to click Wozzie's links to see who published it.

Be aware that National Catholic Reporter has been disavowed by the bishops of Kansas City, one after the other, since 1968. Simply: They aren't affiliated with the Catholic Church, and they are no way authorized to call themselves "Catholic."

Better to think of them as a subversive left-wing plot to sow dissent within the Catholic faithful.

Best to think of them as a joke and a laughingstock.
So the National Catholic Reporter doesn't sentire cum ecclesia?

:lol:
Oh yes, they do....

They say so themselves, and they should know.
The National Catholic Reporter is the other side of coin from EWTN. :P
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:00 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:30 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:05 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:39 am
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:09 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:58 am
Two things that'd be interesting to hear some viewpoints on. Articles are fine and dandy, but for an outsider, articles I've read on both of these topics seem to me like reading American political articles that are swayed extremely partisan.

.....

2) Then there's the bigger hubbub about the Amazon Synod. I've read some say there's a scheme afoot that this is an effort to re-orient the Church in a way that ultimately leads to liberation theology, as well as stamping an approval to some weird indigenous/pagan ritual holdovers that have bled into the worship
wosbald wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:21 am
+JMJ+

Opponents of the pan-Amazon synod discard Catholic social doctrine [In-Depth, Opinion]
[partisan article affirming the Amazon synod/condemning the critics]
Can I assume that your personal take on this lines up with the article?

Have you had an independent thought on anything about the Catholic church since 2013? :lol:
I always have to click Wozzie's links to see who published it.

Be aware that National Catholic Reporter has been disavowed by the bishops of Kansas City, one after the other, since 1968. Simply: They aren't affiliated with the Catholic Church, and they are no way authorized to call themselves "Catholic."

Better to think of them as a subversive left-wing plot to sow dissent within the Catholic faithful.

Best to think of them as a joke and a laughingstock.
So the National Catholic Reporter doesn't sentire cum ecclesia?

:lol:
Oh yes, they do....

They say so themselves, and they should know.
The National Catholic Reporter is the other side of coin from EWTN. :P
EWTN is the center.

"The other side of National Catholic Reporter" would be a similarly schismatic movement disavowed by the bishops.... something to the right of SSPX, I suppose. Denying the validity of current popes and refusing to acknowledge that Vatican II was a valid Council.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:31 pm

Whatever happened to being a Mass-going, Eucharist-consuming, God-fearing Catholic male? Why must I choose sides? I go to church and I say my prayers. I view this thread and it's constant "us vs us" propaganda stream as an assault upon Catholicism and not a championing of the majestic liturgical and theological beauty of, in my opinion, the most freeing and exhalting form of Christianity on this planet.

Whether Wos wants a guitar mass led by a Jesuit in an Hawaiian shirt who came out of the closet last week or Del wants an ultra-conservative mass led by a fat, nasty Prussian with the old reverence or I prefer the Mass of Ages, the point is none are wrong and each of finds our preferred masses to be available within the existing Church. Attempts to exclude each other are anathema and have to stop.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:38 pm

The National Catholic Reporter is an independent news organization. It isn’t “Catholic” per se. It may report things that many Catholics don’t want to hear.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:14 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Whatever happened to being a Mass-going, Eucharist-consuming, God-fearing Catholic male? Why must I choose sides? I go to church and I say my prayers. I view this thread and it's constant "us vs us" propaganda stream as an assault upon Catholicism and not a championing of the majestic liturgical and theological beauty of, in my opinion, the most freeing and exhalting form of Christianity on this planet.

Whether Wos wants a guitar mass led by a Jesuit in an Hawaiian shirt who came out of the closet last week or Del wants an ultra-conservative mass led by a fat, nasty Prussian with the old reverence or I prefer the Mass of Ages, the point is none are wrong and each of finds our preferred masses to be available within the existing Church. Attempts to exclude each other are anathema and have to stop.
I was like “Amen” until you started talking about Hawaiian shirts at Mass. :lol:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:48 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Whatever happened to being a Mass-going, Eucharist-consuming, God-fearing Catholic male? Why must I choose sides? I go to church and I say my prayers. I view this thread and it's constant "us vs us" propaganda stream as an assault upon Catholicism and not a championing of the majestic liturgical and theological beauty of, in my opinion, the most freeing and exhalting form of Christianity on this planet.

Whether Wos wants a guitar mass led by a Jesuit in an Hawaiian shirt who came out of the closet last week or Del wants an ultra-conservative mass led by a fat, nasty Prussian with the old reverence or I prefer the Mass of Ages, the point is none are wrong and each of finds our preferred masses to be available within the existing Church. Attempts to exclude each other are anathema and have to stop.
I was like “Amen” until you started talking about Hawaiian shirts at Mass. :lol:
Yeah, that's about right. :lol:

But I have to tell you, one of the most loving and holy masses I've ever attended was at the Church by the Sea in Waikiki. Hawaiian shirts everywhere. The band played the Psalm. Everything I thought I hated came together and was as reverent as it gets.

But I get you. First paragraph right on. Second paragraph horse feathers. :lol:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:00 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Whatever happened to being a Mass-going, Eucharist-consuming, God-fearing Catholic male? Why must I choose sides? I go to church and I say my prayers. I view this thread and it's constant "us vs us" propaganda stream as an assault upon Catholicism and not a championing of the majestic liturgical and theological beauty of, in my opinion, the most freeing and exhalting form of Christianity on this planet.

Whether Wos wants a guitar mass led by a Jesuit in an Hawaiian shirt who came out of the closet last week or Del wants an ultra-conservative mass led by a fat, nasty Prussian with the old reverence or I prefer the Mass of Ages, the point is none are wrong and each of finds our preferred masses to be available within the existing Church. Attempts to exclude each other are anathema and have to stop.
Not intentionally throwing bombs (seriously...in this thread I feel like I'm handling an explosive substance with only a cursory knowledge of how to handle it), but it seems the current Pope is the lightning rod. Like I said, it seems there is no neutral source of information about him. It reads like propaganda from one wing or the other, and their seems to be faithful Catholics on either side. And because it's the Pope, it seems there's more too it than just two sides throwing rocks at each other. It seems very much like one side twisting the arm of the other, and twisting harder when they cry out about it.

There are many things I admire about the Roman Catholic church and have (like it or not) benefited from my point of observation, even implementing things of our shared heritage in worship (which, I tell you, is something in the perilous realm of Baptists). So this division saddens me.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:48 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Whatever happened to being a Mass-going, Eucharist-consuming, God-fearing Catholic male? Why must I choose sides? I go to church and I say my prayers. I view this thread and it's constant "us vs us" propaganda stream as an assault upon Catholicism and not a championing of the majestic liturgical and theological beauty of, in my opinion, the most freeing and exhalting form of Christianity on this planet.

Whether Wos wants a guitar mass led by a Jesuit in an Hawaiian shirt who came out of the closet last week or Del wants an ultra-conservative mass led by a fat, nasty Prussian with the old reverence or I prefer the Mass of Ages, the point is none are wrong and each of finds our preferred masses to be available within the existing Church. Attempts to exclude each other are anathema and have to stop.
I was like “Amen” until you started talking about Hawaiian shirts at Mass. :lol:
Yeah, that's about right. :lol:

But I have to tell you, one of the most loving and holy masses I've ever attended was at the Church by the Sea in Waikiki. Hawaiian shirts everywhere. The band played the Psalm. Everything I thought I hated came together and was as reverent as it gets.

But I get you. First paragraph right on. Second paragraph horse feathers. :lol:
Reverence is key. I have no doubt Hawaii would have a unique style to their Liturgy. I’m sure they can do it well.

To be honest though, the Catholic Church has in many sectors lost it’s reverence. The “spirit of Vatican II” is alive and well. I don’t think many Catholics know or even care how much of it has been watered down. As a Byzantine rite, former Eastern Orthodox, the only Roman Mass I feel kindred too is the traditional Latin Extraordinary form. Most ordinary Masses I’ve seen really seem to depart from liturgical traditions too much to be good and it isn’t because they are in the vernacular. Important things got lost when Ad Orientem went by the wayside I think.

This isn’t me trying to be harsh or divisive. To the contrary, it’s me attempting, however poorly, to defend the orthopraxy of the timeless traditions of the church.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:25 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:48 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:14 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:31 pm
Whatever happened to being a Mass-going, Eucharist-consuming, God-fearing Catholic male? Why must I choose sides? I go to church and I say my prayers. I view this thread and it's constant "us vs us" propaganda stream as an assault upon Catholicism and not a championing of the majestic liturgical and theological beauty of, in my opinion, the most freeing and exhalting form of Christianity on this planet.

Whether Wos wants a guitar mass led by a Jesuit in an Hawaiian shirt who came out of the closet last week or Del wants an ultra-conservative mass led by a fat, nasty Prussian with the old reverence or I prefer the Mass of Ages, the point is none are wrong and each of finds our preferred masses to be available within the existing Church. Attempts to exclude each other are anathema and have to stop.
I was like “Amen” until you started talking about Hawaiian shirts at Mass. :lol:
Yeah, that's about right. :lol:

But I have to tell you, one of the most loving and holy masses I've ever attended was at the Church by the Sea in Waikiki. Hawaiian shirts everywhere. The band played the Psalm. Everything I thought I hated came together and was as reverent as it gets.

But I get you. First paragraph right on. Second paragraph horse feathers. :lol:
Reverence is key. I have no doubt Hawaii would have a unique style to their Liturgy. I’m sure they can do it well.

To be honest though, the Catholic Church has in many sectors lost it’s reverence. The “spirit of Vatican II” is alive and well. I don’t think many Catholics know or even care how much of it has been watered down. As a Byzantine rite, former Eastern Orthodox, the only Roman Mass I feel kindred too is the traditional Latin Extraordinary form. Most ordinary Masses I’ve seen really seem to depart from liturgical traditions too much to be good and it isn’t because they are in the vernacular. Important things got lost when Ad Orientem went by the wayside I think.

This isn’t me trying to be harsh or divisive. To the contrary, it’s me attempting, however poorly, to defend the orthopraxy of the timeless traditions of the church.
Wow. You expressed my personal feelings almost exactly. When I saw my first EF, I immediately thought "We have been robbed of our inheritance." Lack of liturgical reverence is a horrible sin.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by ChildOfGod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:37 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 pm
To be honest though, the Catholic Church has in many sectors lost it’s reverence.
Would that align with 2 Timothy 3:5 "...having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.", or is that too strong?

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:55 pm

....

.....

.......


..........
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:39 pm

ChildOfGod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:37 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:02 pm
To be honest though, the Catholic Church has in many sectors lost it’s reverence.
Would that align with 2 Timothy 3:5 "...having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.", or is that too strong?
Truthfully, that is an ongoing problem in the churches of God. I’m not sure there was ever a time when the lukewarm and scandalous haven’t been a part of the church. Yet somehow, the faithful receive the Grace from God to keep the churches Holy. The gates of hell will not prevail. Jesus promised St. Peter that.

I should be careful not to judge too harshly the difficult and complicated updates to the form of the Mass. besides, I’m a Byzantine rite Catholic, not a Roman rite Catholic. I only spend a lot of time going to Roman rite masses due to personal convenience. But it’s really not my place to judge; perhaps it’s better to simply share a perspective. There are Roman Catholics who are quite capable of reverence, they don’t need my help. :lol:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:58 am

+JMJ+

Pope Francis marks 25th anniversary of attack on Jewish center in Buenos Aires [In-Depth]
Image
In this Jan. 21, 2015 file photo, a man holds a sign that reads in Spanish; 'Justice' outside the AMIA Jewish community center, where a group gathered asking for "Justice" in the death of a prosecutor who had accused Argentina's president of a criminal conspiracy, in Buenos Aires, Argentina. (Credit: Rodrigo Abd/AP)

SANTA FE, Argentina — A 1994 terrorist attack on a Jewish center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, that left 85 people dead was an “act of madness,” according to Pope Francis.

The pontiff’s words came in a letter to Jorge Knoblovits, the president of the DAIA, the Delegation of Argentine Israeli Associations, marking the 25th anniversary of the bombing.

Francis said these acts are not limited to his home country of Argentina, but that all over the world there are people whose lives and hopes have been “truncated” in the name of religion.

“This ‘piecemeal third world war’ knows no borders, and has shown its cruel face from the East to the West,” Francis wrote.

He said this conflict has “turned wives into widows, sons and daughters into orphans, and all in the name of God, blaspheming the name of God.”

He closed the letter with what amounts to a marching order: “It’s true that God has created us equal in rights, but he also did so in obligations and dignity. Peace should not be only our right; its construction should be our obligation.”

The anniversary of the attack on the Asociación Mutual Israelita Argentina (AMIA) is next week, July 18, but the letter, hand-signed by Francis, was sent on July 10.

[…]

In his letter to DAIA, Francis wrote that as was the case in 1995, the first anniversary of the terrorist attack, every July 18 “my heart accompanies the relatives of the victims, both Jewish and Christian. And from the first day I ask God for the eternal repose of those who lost their lives in that act of madness.”

Francis also stressed that “it is not religion that incites and leads to war, but darkness in the hearts of those who commit irrational acts.”

According to the pope, God has called humanity to live as brothers, and that this fraternity that unites peoples from all over the world goes beyond any geographical or ideological boundary.

In this sense, the pope urged that “this awareness” of “being brothers, together with the values of respect and tolerance, be transmitted to the next generations.”

[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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wosbald
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:10 pm

+JMJ+

Future pope once called host-turned-to-blood a 'mark of the Lord' [In-Depth]
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The Church of Santa Maria, in the neighborhood of Almagro, in downtown Buenos Aires, Argetina. (Credit: Ines San Martin/Crux)

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — Seventeen years ago, a priest at the Church of Santa Maria in Buenos Aires was tidying up when he discovered two small pieces of a Eucharistic host on the altar. Church rules told him exactly what to do in such a situation, and he followed them to the letter — placing the pieces of host in a chalice with water to dissolve, then putting the chalice into a tabernacle.

Such small gestures of respect for the Eucharist are common in Catholic parishes all around the world, but what followed was anything but.

One week later — on May 8, feast of Our Lady of Lujan, patroness of Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay — the priest checked the chalice. Astonished, he reported that the water had turned a deep red, like the color of blood. An “informal” analysis at the time suggested it was indeed blood, but little more was done to investigate.

That, however, wasn’t the end of the story.

Two years later, a Eucharistic minister distributing Communion during a Mass at Santa Maria claimed to see a drop of blood fall inside a chalice. Two years after that, on the feast of the Assumption, a host that had fallen to the floor during Mass was once again placed in water at Santa Maria, and it too turned into what was believed to be blood.

As the parish’s fame for such happenings grew, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires at the time — who today is Pope Francis — asked for tests. A local doctor named Ricardo Catañón took a sample from what had become known by then as the “1992 Sign” and sent it to a lab in San Francisco.

When the results came back, the lab reported the substance “could be” human tissue. Another analysis by a doctor in Sydney, Australia, likewise concluded the substance was human tissue and “could” belong to a heart.

Dissatisfied with “could,” and knowing that Bergoglio expected an answer, Catañón sent the material to a third doctor in New York for what he called a “blind sample.”

This last doctor was more definitive: The substance, he reported, belonged to a heart muscle called the myocardium — more specifically, the left ventricle that pumps oxygenated blood from the lungs to the body. The doctor also found the person the sample came from had suffered greatly, including trauma to the chest.

Told the sample didn’t belong to a living patient, the New York doctor said he found the presence of white blood cells inexplicable, since they usually disintegrate minutes after a blood sample is removed from the body. He also reported the sample had a “beat,” which also had been noted in the first report in 1992.

In light of those findings, Catañón swiftly drew spiritual conclusions: The fact that the substance is from the myocardium, he said, suggests the Eucharist is what “pumps blood into [Christ’s] Church.” It being from the left ventricle, he said, is a reminder that Christ “cleans the Church of its sins.”

“We don’t call it a miracle, we describe it as a ‘sign’,” said Father Alberto Vari, the pastor of Santa Maria.

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A hanging glass structure that makes up the receptacle for Eucharistic adoration in the Church of Santa Maria in the neighborhood of Almagro, located in downtown Buenos Aires, Argentina. (Credit: Ines San Martin/Crux)

“The “Eucharist in this parish, in facts and in words, has become the center of community life,” he told Crux Wednesday. “Prayer and adoration are almost permanent: the doors open at 8:00 a.m. and close at 9:00 p.m., and [Christ] is never alone because there’s always someone praying.”

Though there’s some information about the reputed miracles online, mostly in Spanish, there’s little overt publicity. Vari described his interview with Crux as “rare,” but that’s something he wants to change — though, he added, slowly.

[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:31 pm

+JMJ+

The Chinese Rites, The Amazon Synod, And The So-Called Traditionalists Attack On Catholic Tradition [In-Depth, Opinion]
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Prospero Intorcetta, Philippe Couplet, et al: Pages from Confucius Sinarum Philosophus (“Confucius, the Philosopher of the Chinese”), an annotated Latin translation of three of the “Four Books” of Qing Confucianism by Prospero Intorcetta / Wikimedia Commons

When the Jesuits began their mission to China, they had to find a way to engage the Chinese. Matteo (Matthew) Ricci came to the conclusion that he had to come to the Chinese embracing their cultural heritage, looking to and accepting what could be demonstrated as a natural theological truth. Initially, he and his fellow Jesuits entered China, shaved their heads, acting like Buddhist monks, but that did not bring much success; it was when they studied the classical Confucian tradition that they discerned a new way to engage Chinese thought, and so they promoted an engagement with Confucian thought, taking what they thought was acceptable within Confucianism and using it as a way to discuss and point to the Christian faith. This meant they had to be creative, looking broadly to what they thought was acceptable, allowing converts to continue to follow many Confucian traditions, such as ancestor veneration, so long as those traditions were given an orthodox understanding.

[…]

Sadly, not just for the Jesuits but for Christians in China, Ricci’s position quickly became unfavorable in the Vatican, though in the 20th century, the Vatican would change its position and accept the framework which Ricci tried to establish:

[…]

Sadly, this came too late for Christian missions in China. The damage had been done. But this understanding and strategy remains with the church as can be seen in the way the church is wanting to engage the needs of the peoples living around the Amazon. Thus, as Junno Esteves pointed out in Crux, Cardinal Pedro Barreto Jimeno of Huancayo sees the up-coming synod in the Amazon as trying to deal with and embrace the needs of the indigenous peoples of the Amazon region:
The objective of the upcoming Synod of Bishops for the Amazon is to highlight the need for religious, political and social leaders to come together and defend the dignity of indigenous men, women and children and an ecosystem that is crucial to the environment, said Peruvian Cardinal Pedro Barreto Jimeno of Huancayo.
Many critics of the up-coming Synod, like those who reacted against the Jesuits during the Chinese Rites controversy, have tried to indicate that the synod will be promoting heresy because of its engagement with the indigenous peoples. The Editors at the National Catholic Register, ignoring the church’s tradition and teaching concerning inculturation, suggest there is something illicit in the approach, calling it a “distortion”:
And, with the formal release of the synod’s instrumentum laboris (working document), the issue of married priests was indeed present as a potential problem, alongside other areas of concern, such as the document’s treatment of ecological issues and its distortions of inculturation.
[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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