Why People Leave/Change Churches

For those deep thinkers out there.

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UncleBob
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by UncleBob » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:59 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:09 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:27 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:18 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:09 pm
Just do a Google search for "sex abuse scandals Christian". That could have something to do with it.
Then do a search for "sex abuse scandals in public schools."
Ah yes! The old tu quoque twaddle.

Do you think that The Church, The Bride of Christ, should be held to the legal standard that pedophilia is always illegal and maybe even, just maybe, the moral standard of that's always wrong?

Just checking for a friend.
Nope.
Only to show that pedophila is by far more commonplace among school teachers than it is among clergy.
If this is a valid concern for taking children out of public schools for home schooling, why are so many State hostile to home schooling?

The answer is fear mongering. A pastor is publicly convicted and shamed long before the case ever gets to court to be determined by the rule of law. It is the same with teachers but you won't read anything about it a month later, or years later when ex students bring suit for emotional trauma.
Church goers are going to fear pastors, rightly or wrongly accused---much like the LAPD that murdered the homeless lady being held hostage recently, the public isn't going to look at the LAPD in the same way again. people tend to look at the profession when making up their minds.
You won't find that level of coverage being given to pedophile public school teachers.
My local State University even had a few profs convicted of various sex crimes. They weren't "let go" and are still teaching, after being convicted.
I doubt if anyone on campus even remembers their names---but I remember one in the Geography Dept.
I'm not trying to make an asymmetrical argument here, only to point out that if you're going to bet that your child is being endangered by a pedophile, a faculty member is statistically more of a threat than a pastor.
Me? I don't necessarily trust statistics but I do consider them.
Then start at thread about why people leave the public schools. BTW--the evidence for "a faculty member is statistically more of a threat than a pastor". I'd like to see the study, please. In any event, the issue isn't which is more dangerous but, rather, that it is dangerous at all.
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by FredS » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:09 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:27 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:18 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:09 pm
Just do a Google search for "sex abuse scandals Christian". That could have something to do with it.
Then do a search for "sex abuse scandals in public schools."
Ah yes! The old tu quoque twaddle.

Do you think that The Church, The Bride of Christ, should be held to the legal standard that pedophilia is always illegal and maybe even, just maybe, the moral standard of that's always wrong?

Just checking for a friend.
Of course the Church should hold the position that pedophilia is always illegal, always immoral and always wrong. Who has suggested to you that it shouldn't? Did you just dream that up? Why would you ask such a thing?

You just cook up crazy positions and ask others to defend it. Will you label every CPS'er who dosn't proclaim publicly that pedophilia is always illegal and always immoral, a pedophile themselves?

Please don't post any links to support your position that the Church does not think that pedophilia is always illegal and always immoral as proof that Christians need to specifically denounce every whack job that writes something on the internet. I want to know about Uncle Bob and why he thinks that the Church (not some broken individuals in the church) holds that position.
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by UncleBob » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:30 pm

FredS wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:09 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:27 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:18 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:09 pm
Just do a Google search for "sex abuse scandals Christian". That could have something to do with it.
Then do a search for "sex abuse scandals in public schools."
Ah yes! The old tu quoque twaddle.

Do you think that The Church, The Bride of Christ, should be held to the legal standard that pedophilia is always illegal and maybe even, just maybe, the moral standard of that's always wrong?

Just checking for a friend.
Of course the Church should hold the position that pedophilia is always illegal, always immoral and always wrong. Who has suggested to you that it shouldn't? Did you just dream that up? Why would you ask such a thing?

You just cook up crazy positions and ask others to defend it. Will you label every CPS'er who dosn't proclaim publicly that pedophilia is always illegal and always immoral, a pedophile themselves?

Please don't post any links to support your position that the Church does not think that pedophilia is always illegal and always immoral as proof that Christians need to specifically denounce every whack job that writes something on the internet. I want to know about Uncle Bob and why he thinks that the Church (not some broken individuals in the church) holds that position.
Whew! Glad that's cleared up.
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Re: Why People Leave Church

Post by coco » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:53 am

FredS wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am
coco wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:13 am
Christian faith without church does involve a degree of innovation in the Christian faith.
But the American way is to be fiercely independent. A pastor friend says we're like cows rather than sheep, who need a Shepard.
Or cats
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Re: Why People Leave Church

Post by durangopipe » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:19 am

coco wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:53 am
FredS wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am
coco wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:13 am
Christian faith without church does involve a degree of innovation in the Christian faith.
But the American way is to be fiercely independent. A pastor friend says we're like cows rather than sheep, who need a Shepard.
Or cats
Or goats.
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Re: Why People Leave Church

Post by coco » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:39 am

durangopipe wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:19 am
coco wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:53 am
FredS wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am
coco wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:13 am
Christian faith without church does involve a degree of innovation in the Christian faith.
But the American way is to be fiercely independent. A pastor friend says we're like cows rather than sheep, who need a Shepard.
Or cats
Or goats.
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Re: Why People Leave Church

Post by joegoat » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:37 pm

serapion wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:20 pm
joegoat wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:27 pm
serapion wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:53 pm
joegoat wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:52 pm
serapion wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:23 am
A more important question, gentlemen, is why people in the millennial age bracket and down (30 - 18) are staying away from church.
I'm 27. I unfortunately fall into the millennial bracket and all the embarrassing stereotypes that come along with it. I'm turned off by many churches' attempts at attracting me. The coffee bar and jump around, whoopie woo worship is extremely off putting to me. The watered down message of God loves you no matter what, so live however you want and if you're really saved, things will just be swell with not so much as a bump in the road.
When I moved away from home, finding a new church was a very high priority for me. I found a home with the Anglicans. I love worshiping in a liturgy! Partaking in Holy Communion every week as a body of believers is wonderful. It's simple straight forward Christianity.
I've since moved again and I'm still on the hunt. I've recently found an Anglican congregation that we've attended and both liked it, but my wife grew up in this area and has roots in a church here so we go there by default. I'm not particularly fond of them and we both understand this. Their worship is of the aforementioned type and though I Iike the pastor and think his head is on straight, they have a lot of folks who take what he says in a message and just take it to the point of no return. "No condemnation" is a catch phrase that seems to mean do whatever you want to some folks. They're big on "healing." I very much believe that there are miraculous healings through The Spirit, but they seem to believe that our earthly bodies will never be inflicted by so much as an ache. Even if someone is clinically ill, once hands are laid on them they are healed. They might still be taking the full dose of medication to keep the symptoms mostly at bay and the tests are still coming back very positive, but they are healed... The shame is, there are some great people there! I've never had that good feeling of, "this is home" there.
Maybe I can't speak for my entire generation, but I just want something real. All I want is a hearty piece of cake. There is no need for two inches of icing piled on top to make it look better. It doesn't need to be a new recipe either, Good ol' fashioned vanilla is fine by me.
Well said! And you are confirming something I suspected.
My age, premature curmudgeonous, or love of icingless cake?
:lol: Guess I should explain that!

None of those things. Rather the yearning for something "real", ancient and solid rather than uber-market oriented stuff that could be a new breakfast food, a line of curated men's goods or Jesus. I actually passed your comments (anonymously) to my mostly millennial kids to see if they feel similarly. So far only one has responded as yet, basically that she is looking for what is real too.
The Anglican congregations that I've visited have all had a strong showing of "millennial" aged people. I'd say the norm is just as many young families and college age kids as say, 40 plus year olds.
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Steve S » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:00 pm

I'm a Gen-Xer, for whatever that's worth, and I would identify as broadly Evangelical. I've moved around the USA over the course of my life, and that's always necessitated changing churches. The only time I've actually changed churches without moving was when I was offered a part-time staff position at a church I wasn't attending, so of course my wife and I started attending that church all the time.

My oldest daughter is a Millennial, and after moving around between a couple different churches, she's landed at a local Anglican church--one with good theology. The combination of a formal liturgy and substantial homilies really appeals to her.

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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Onyx » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:21 pm

tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:18 am
Image
Seems to me that there's a missing option. Lots of people saying that the "church changed its doctrine". But what about the situation where the church did not change, by my perspective changed. I'd have thought that would be a big one. But then I'm biased.

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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by harkpuff » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:58 pm

Onyx wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:21 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:18 am
Image
Seems to me that there's a missing option. Lots of people saying that the "church changed its doctrine". But what about the situation where the church did not change, by my perspective changed. I'd have thought that would be a big one. But then I'm biased.
Yes....agreed. This is also a big factor in today's church. A Christian author wrote that Biblical Illiteracy among church members is at epidemic levels today. When people are not reading their Bibles their lives are ripe for Satan and the influences of the world to overtake them causing a wide discrepancy between what the church and the Word of God teaches and pull of the world on their personal lives. As a result, their new worldview no longer matches that of the church, so their gone. Getting the people back into their Bibles is a tough one. You cannot force people to do what they don't want to do. The vast majority of church members today don't even darken the doorway of a Sunday school class anymore and this is the place where one gets to dig deep into God's Word. Most are satisfied with the couple of Scripture verses they hear from the preachers sermon for twenty minutes during the church service. If this is their only exposure to the Bible it's no wonder church members are being lost to the world. This is the case in our own church. Only 10% of the entire congregation shows up for some real Bible study in a Sunday School class. And they can be encouraged to attend until the cows come home and you still can't dynamite them into a classroom.

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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:00 am

harkpuff wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:58 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:21 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:18 am
Image
Seems to me that there's a missing option. Lots of people saying that the "church changed its doctrine". But what about the situation where the church did not change, by my perspective changed. I'd have thought that would be a big one. But then I'm biased.
Yes....agreed. This is also a big factor in today's church. A Christian author wrote that Biblical Illiteracy among church members is at epidemic levels today. When people are not reading their Bibles their lives are ripe for Satan and the influences of the world to overtake them causing a wide discrepancy between what the church and the Word of God teaches and pull of the world on their personal lives. As a result, their new worldview no longer matches that of the church, so their gone. Getting the people back into their Bibles is a tough one. You cannot force people to do what they don't want to do. The vast majority of church members today don't even darken the doorway of a Sunday school class anymore and this is the place where one gets to dig deep into God's Word. Most are satisfied with the couple of Scripture verses they hear from the preachers sermon for twenty minutes during the church service. If this is their only exposure to the Bible it's no wonder church members are being lost to the world. This is the case in our own church. Only 10% of the entire congregation shows up for some real Bible study in a Sunday School class. And they can be encouraged to attend until the cows come home and you still can't dynamite them into a classroom.
It actually goes both ways. Sometimes the person grows spiritually and realizes that the church they are attending is wrong about some fundamental doctrine(s), so they move on.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by harkpuff » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:09 pm

Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:00 am
harkpuff wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:58 pm
Onyx wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:21 pm
tuttle wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:18 am
Image
Seems to me that there's a missing option. Lots of people saying that the "church changed its doctrine". But what about the situation where the church did not change, by my perspective changed. I'd have thought that would be a big one. But then I'm biased.
Yes....agreed. This is also a big factor in today's church. A Christian author wrote that Biblical Illiteracy among church members is at epidemic levels today. When people are not reading their Bibles their lives are ripe for Satan and the influences of the world to overtake them causing a wide discrepancy between what the church and the Word of God teaches and pull of the world on their personal lives. As a result, their new worldview no longer matches that of the church, so their gone. Getting the people back into their Bibles is a tough one. You cannot force people to do what they don't want to do. The vast majority of church members today don't even darken the doorway of a Sunday school class anymore and this is the place where one gets to dig deep into God's Word. Most are satisfied with the couple of Scripture verses they hear from the preachers sermon for twenty minutes during the church service. If this is their only exposure to the Bible it's no wonder church members are being lost to the world. This is the case in our own church. Only 10% of the entire congregation shows up for some real Bible study in a Sunday School class. And they can be encouraged to attend until the cows come home and you still can't dynamite them into a classroom.
It actually goes both ways. Sometimes the person grows spiritually and realizes that the church they are attending is wrong about some fundamental doctrine(s), so they move on.

Yes, you are right. It can happen that way as well. It a very interesting phenomonom that takes place when someone does really strive to grow in their faith and their knowledge of the Scriputers. More often than not, this person is often viewed as being legalistic, a trouble maker, a boat rocker, hollier than thou....etc, etc. It seems that the majority who are simply content with the minimum will always be their with attempts to drag them you back down to their level. And it's this same status quo-crowd that are most vocal and present themselves as the arm-chair doctrinal experts when the fur flies over doctrine.

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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Joshoowah » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:58 am

Intolerance?
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by mont974x4 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:37 pm

Joshoowah wrote:Intolerance?
Very much one key reason.


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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by harkpuff » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:41 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:58 am
Intolerance?

A great one word summary. Scripture says that in the last days man will not tolerate sound doctrine and will surround themselves with teachers who will accomodate their itching ears. They will go where only the "feel-good" sermons are preached.

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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by mont974x4 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 pm

harkpuff wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:58 am
Intolerance?

A great one word summary. Scripture says that in the last days man will not tolerate sound doctrine and will surround themselves with teachers who will accomodate their itching ears. They will go where only the "feel-good" sermons are preached.
It is a great one word summary. However, I think you missed the point. It’s the intolerance of the churches that drives people away.

Of course, I could be the one who missed the point and you could be correct.


For me, when I was a believer, I sought out sound and deep teaching. The intolerance and hypocrisy were big reasons why I walked away.


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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Goose55 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:41 pm

mont974x4 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 pm
harkpuff wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:58 am
Intolerance?

A great one word summary. Scripture says that in the last days man will not tolerate sound doctrine and will surround themselves with teachers who will accomodate their itching ears. They will go where only the "feel-good" sermons are preached.
It is a great one word summary. However, I think you missed the point. It’s the intolerance of the churches that drives people away.

Of course, I could be the one who missed the point and you could be correct.

For me, when I was a believer, I sought out sound and deep teaching. The intolerance and hypocrisy were big reasons why I walked away.
Well, I'd say you are likely in a better "place" spiritually than to have joined in the hypocrisy. I don't see God abandoning people just because they honestly throw off religion. I think this is maybe the main meaning when Jesus referred to himself as "the door," or "the gate" of the sheep. He's the one standing there as we go through all sorts of religious experiences (or the lack of them) in this old world. Some of those experiences are horrible. As was His, on that day upon Golgotha.
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Cleon » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:25 pm

How about because life is fine and I just want to sleep in a little and enjoy a day off and some family time.
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Re: Why People Leave/Change Churches

Post by Joshoowah » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:42 am

mont974x4 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 pm
harkpuff wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:58 am
Intolerance?

A great one word summary. Scripture says that in the last days man will not tolerate sound doctrine and will surround themselves with teachers who will accomodate their itching ears. They will go where only the "feel-good" sermons are preached.
It is a great one word summary. However, I think you missed the point. It’s the intolerance of the churches that drives people away.

Of course, I could be the one who missed the point and you could be correct.


For me, when I was a believer, I sought out sound and deep teaching. The intolerance and hypocrisy were big reasons why I walked away.


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You captured what I meant, mont. A recurring issue I continually hear about is the intolerance of the church. Some of those arguments for intolerance are justified and push people away, and some are demands for the church to conform - failure to do so leads to exits.

Also, in my opinion, we've been living in the last days for almost 2,000 years.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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