Is the United States a government for the religious?

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Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:53 pm

My argument here is that, while the US Constitution offers freedom of religion, and that in the US, church and state are considered separate - in practice, this was only contingent on meeting the bare qualifications of what it means to be free and separate to begin with, by their actual definitions.

Essentially, what was invented was a government which was founded with laws and on principles considered more or less universal to all world religions (such as respect for God, life, state, elders, art, the sciences, the environment, and so on) - as opposed to one religion or sect forcing itself on others (e.x. a state attempting to force or Protestants or Jewish people to convert to Catholicism, attempting to force Christians to convert to the Jewish faith, etc).

In this sense, separation of church and state means that the state doesn't serve the interest of a single church, but that it serves the mutual interests of all the churches, such as by removing degeneracies such as sodomy, greed, gluttony, or aberrant sects or "lifestyles" such as Satanists, neopagan cults, atheist cults, lgbt cults, and whatnot - or creating and enforcing morality which would be in the mutual interest of all world religions - such as obscenity, murder, theft, and rape.

Likewise, freedom of religion would mean the freedom to choose one's religion, denomination, or life path - but of course only provided it met the bare minimum criteria of a legitimate path to begin with (someone for example, following an atheistic or Satanic path in life of murder, rape, sexual degeneracy, or drug and alcohol addictions wouldn't have any sustainable place in society other than in a prison, mental asylum, or homeless).

To my knowledge, this was more or less understood by the Founders and other Enlightenment thinkers to the point, that emphasizing it in writing for its intended audience and educational levels would have been unnecessary - and that the rights and liberties they imagined in theory, more or less presumed that individuals were following a correct religious path in life to begin with; individuals following an atheistic or morally degenerate path never would have been imagined able or willing to be more than felons or slaves, and not enlightened enough to ever achieve freedom in practice other than by changing their lifestyle, physically, mentally, or spiritually - whether due to physical enslavement, such as the prisons or asylums that atheism and its associated degenerates naturally lead to, or the mental, emotional, or spiritual enslavement and poverty which vices such as greed, hatred, fornication, lust, and addictions beget if God isn't sought out.

In this sense, I believe that while one wouldn't be wise to argue that the United States (and European governments which adopted the same Enlightened values) is a government "only" for Christians, it's nevertheless in essence a government only for the religious or genuinely spiritual (one could even attempt to make the argument that, in practice, all legitimate governments, other than maybe anarchies or totalitarianism, are religious governments, given that truly "atheistic governments" in which atheistic practices such as murder and rape are legal in theory or practice by the people or their leaders would only temporarily be able to exist in the form of war-torn anarchies like that of Somalia or central Africa, or totalitarian states such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, or North Korea).
Last edited by Nature of a Man on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Goose55 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:16 pm

Yes, it is. There is guaranteed freedom of religion. There is also guaranteed freedom from religion. Our government can not force people to be religious
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:35 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:16 pm
Yes, it is. There is guaranteed freedom of religion. There is also guaranteed freedom from religion. Our government can not force people to be religious
I'd agree that our government can't force people to be genuinely religious or to convert, and if a conversion attempt was theoretically made under duress, a la the stories of the Spanish Inquisition, it wouldn't be a genuine conversion or repentance of sins.

In practice, though, the government can force people to "be religious" in terms of their behavior, or at very least not force them to not "be irreligious to an out of ordinary degree" - <zederated>

Freedom from religion only exists in prisons, since in prisons one is free from the social expectation that he or she should change his or her behavior voluntarily out of respect toward God, or by any means other than physical force, I suppose.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by DepartedLight » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:34 pm

Is the United States a government for the religious?

Oh you betcha. As an added bonus the US is also a government for the non or even anti-religious.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by durangopipe » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:45 pm

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Hovannes » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 pm

The separation of church and state is supposed to guarantee freedom from the Government governing religion. Or at least that was what Mr Mc Crackle told us in the 8th Grade.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Roadmaster » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:09 pm

Atheists are not necessarily immoral thieving rapists. Some of them are the type of person who does the right thing even if nobody is watching.

Our government is set up on Masonic principles more than anything else. God is mentioned but not Christ. The closest mention to Christ is ‘In The Year Of Our Lord’ before the date.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Roadmaster » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:16 pm

Saw this being promoted by two SCOTUS Justices.
Might be worth a look.
https://www.icivics.org

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:41 pm

This is shaping up to be an extremely neat thread.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by FredS » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:41 pm

WOW
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:44 am

Hey Cooter--might could want the Doc to adjust them medicaments you been taking. Boys down at the John Birch Society say you been scarin' em some lately.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by TNLawPiper » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:51 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:44 am
Hey Cooter--might could want the Doc to adjust them medicaments you been taking. Boys down at the John Birch Society say you been scarin' em some lately.
I tell you what, boy: you speak Stereotypical Early 20th Century Deep Southern Dialect (SE2CDSD for short) better than any Yankee lawyer I've ever met.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Roadmaster » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am

Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:41 am

Roadmaster wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.
That's so well put, RM. Your line about knocking down the door should be written in letters of gold and graven on our hearts.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:52 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:51 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:44 am
Hey Cooter--might could want the Doc to adjust them medicaments you been taking. Boys down at the John Birch Society say you been scarin' em some lately.
I tell you what, boy: you speak Stereotypical Early 20th Century Deep Southern Dialect (SE2CDSD for short) better than any Yankee lawyer I've ever met.
And your English is better than any Southron's I've ever met, sit. Perhaps there is a land somewhere between Yawknapatawpha County and Marblehead where we could live as neighbors?

Seriously, though, I admire the Southern culture more than you know. The way the people of the South pragmatically address the good and the bad in their history with pride is very admirable.

I'll let you in on the family secret...we have WASPs in the wood pile: the Taylor's of Virginia. I'd appreciate if we didnt talk to much about it. We are still coping with the shame of continually fighting on the wrong side.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Roadmaster » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:51 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:41 am



That's so well put, RM. Your line about knocking down the door should be written in letters of gold and graven on our hearts.
Thank you I'm sure that it is not an original comment.
Fred mentioned funeral customs in another thread.
A print of this painting hangs about every funeral home I have been in.
There is no outside door knob implying the door must be opened from the inside.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by UncleBob » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Lets all take a moment to review the rules of conduct:
Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PMs are forbidden at CPS. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties
C) Claims of severe dehumanization
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group


Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion including those of an Atheistic or Agnostic belief
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered, non-gendered, etc)
g) Disability
Claims of illegal behavior, such as rape, across entire groups is not only wrong but foolish.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:56 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Lets all take a moment to review the rules of conduct:
Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PMs are forbidden at CPS. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties
C) Claims of severe dehumanization
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group


Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion including those of an Atheistic or Agnostic belief
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered, non-gendered, etc)
g) Disability
Claims of illegal behavior, such as rape, across entire groups is not only wrong but foolish.
You misunderstand, I made a point to point out that not all who identify as atheists actually commit acts such as rape or murder - I was refering to their philosophy or worldview - if an atheist believes that life is meaningless, or that he is no different than any other animal, then while in practice, he may not behave like this, in theory, there is no reason that he shouldn't if he thought it served his self interest.

So this wasn't condemnation of atheists as a human group, just condemnation of the atheistic worldview.
Roadmaster wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.
My point is that, in practice, freedom "from" religion doesn't really doesn't exist - at least in an absolute sense, given that state common law is arguably grounded in Judeo-Christian principles, or at least in principles more or less universal to world religions.

If a person wanted to be truly "free from religion", then they would have to jettison all laws and values whatsoever, including laws against rape, murder, other heinous acts - since from an atheistic worldview, at least in theory, there would be no reason not to do those things if they felt it served their interest (again, for emphasis, this isn't a condemnation of all atheists as individuals, but a condemnation of the atheistic worldview)-

In practice, though, if a person lives without any religious principles whatsoever, and commits crimes such as those mentioned, they are sent to prisons, die, and on the whole have no place in society.

So anyone who exists in society at all, American or otherwise, isn't really "free from religion" in an absolute sense.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:05 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Lets all take a moment to review the rules of conduct:
Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PMs are forbidden at CPS. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties
C) Claims of severe dehumanization
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group


Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion including those of an Atheistic or Agnostic belief
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered, non-gendered, etc)
g) Disability
Claims of illegal behavior, such as rape, across entire groups is not only wrong but foolish.
You misunderstand, I made a point to point out that not all who identify as atheists actually commit acts such as rape or murder - I was referring to their philosophy or worldview - if an atheist believes that life is meaningless, or that he is no different than any other animal, then while in practice, he may not behave like this, in theory, there is no reason that he shouldn't if he thought it served his self interest.

So this wasn't condemnation of atheists as a human group, just condemnation of the atheistic worldview - I made a point to assert that most atheists don't seem to follow the worldview to its logical extremes, like committing acts of rape and murder, which I believe illustrates they aren't really as convinced of their atheism as they may seem.
Roadmaster wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.
My point is that, in practice, freedom "from" religion doesn't really doesn't exist - at least in an absolute sense, given that state common law is arguably grounded in Judeo-Christian principles, or at least in principles more or less universal to world religions.

If a person wanted to be truly "free from religion", then they would have to jettison all laws and values whatsoever, including laws against rape, murder, other heinous acts - since from an atheistic worldview, at least in theory, there would be no reason not to do those things if they felt it served their interest (again, for emphasis, this isn't a condemnation of all atheists as individuals, but a condemnation of the atheistic worldview)-

In practice, though, if a person lives without any religious principles whatsoever, and commits crimes such as those mentioned, they are sent to prisons, die, and on the whole have no place in society.

So anyone who exists in society at all, American or otherwise, isn't really "free from religion" in an absolute sense.
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:44 am
Hey Cooter--might could want the Doc to adjust them medicaments you been taking. Boys down at the John Birch Society say you been scarin' em some lately.
How's Jaws' dental work going?

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by UncleBob » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:15 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:56 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Lets all take a moment to review the rules of conduct:
Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PMs are forbidden at CPS. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties
C) Claims of severe dehumanization
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group


Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion including those of an Atheistic or Agnostic belief
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered, non-gendered, etc)
g) Disability
Claims of illegal behavior, such as rape, across entire groups is not only wrong but foolish.
You misunderstand, I made a point to point out that not all who identify as atheists actually commit acts such as rape or murder - I was refering to their philosophy or worldview - if an atheist believes that life is meaningless, or that he is no different than any other animal, then while in practice, he may not behave like this, in theory, there is no reason that he shouldn't if he thought it served his self interest.

So this wasn't condemnation of atheists as a human group, just condemnation of the atheistic worldview.
Roadmaster wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.
My point is that, in practice, freedom "from" religion doesn't really doesn't exist - at least in an absolute sense, given that state common law is arguably grounded in Judeo-Christian principles, or at least in principles more or less universal to world religions.

If a person wanted to be truly "free from religion", then they would have to jettison all laws and values whatsoever, including laws against rape, murder, other heinous acts - since from an atheistic worldview, at least in theory, there would be no reason not to do those things if they felt it served their interest (again, for emphasis, this isn't a condemnation of all atheists as individuals, but a condemnation of the atheistic worldview)-

In practice, though, if a person lives without any religious principles whatsoever, and commits crimes such as those mentioned, they are sent to prisons, die, and on the whole have no place in society.

So anyone who exists in society at all, American or otherwise, isn't really "free from religion" in an absolute sense.
Athiests do not teach this themselves. Also, religions have adopted such bans from governments themselves aka Hammurabi (sp?). Still, all that is moot as the rules of conduct for CPS is clear. Intended or not, atheists are a protected group, here, and ascribing such acts to that group is considered hate speech. Please refrain from doing this further.
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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