Is the United States a government for the religious?

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:56 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:15 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:56 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Lets all take a moment to review the rules of conduct:
Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PMs are forbidden at CPS. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties
C) Claims of severe dehumanization
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group


Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion including those of an Atheistic or Agnostic belief
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered, non-gendered, etc)
g) Disability
Claims of illegal behavior, such as rape, across entire groups is not only wrong but foolish.
You misunderstand, I made a point to point out that not all who identify as atheists actually commit acts such as rape or murder - I was refering to their philosophy or worldview - if an atheist believes that life is meaningless, or that he is no different than any other animal, then while in practice, he may not behave like this, in theory, there is no reason that he shouldn't if he thought it served his self interest.

So this wasn't condemnation of atheists as a human group, just condemnation of the atheistic worldview.
Roadmaster wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.
My point is that, in practice, freedom "from" religion doesn't really doesn't exist - at least in an absolute sense, given that state common law is arguably grounded in Judeo-Christian principles, or at least in principles more or less universal to world religions.

If a person wanted to be truly "free from religion", then they would have to jettison all laws and values whatsoever, including laws against rape, murder, other heinous acts - since from an atheistic worldview, at least in theory, there would be no reason not to do those things if they felt it served their interest (again, for emphasis, this isn't a condemnation of all atheists as individuals, but a condemnation of the atheistic worldview)-

In practice, though, if a person lives without any religious principles whatsoever, and commits crimes such as those mentioned, they are sent to prisons, die, and on the whole have no place in society.

So anyone who exists in society at all, American or otherwise, isn't really "free from religion" in an absolute sense.
Athiests do not teach this themselves. Also, religions have adopted such bans from governments themselves aka Hammurabi (sp?). Still, all that is moot as the rules of conduct for CPS is clear. Intended or not, atheists are a protected group, here, and ascribing such acts to that group is considered hate speech. Please refrain from doing this further.
There are atheists who do teach this, or at least a nihilistic worldview which, if taken literally, would permit this. I've studied postmodernism and a myriad of philosophies that might be described as "atheistic Darwinism", and I believe I understand the core of the worldview in question - some authors include Nietzsche, Stirner, Sade, and others if you're interested. In theory, yes, if atheistic postmodernists were consistent in their nihilistic worldviews, they would, or at least could do those things. (In practice, they generally don't, because they're hypocrites - though perhaps it's better that they don't regardless.)

There also does seem to be some overlap between "Satanism", or the "Satanic worldview", as well as some of the fringe neopagan cults or new religious movements -and what might be described as postmodern nihilism, or atheistic Darwinism.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by UncleBob » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:04 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:56 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:15 pm
Nature of a Man wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:56 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 pm
Lets all take a moment to review the rules of conduct:
Hate Messages - Hate Messages delivered via threads, posts, signatures, or PMs are forbidden at CPS. The Moderator Team defines a hate message as a comment using one of the following towards a “protected group” or an individual based on their identity in a “protected group” in an extreme manner:

A) The support for or a call for violence
B) The suggestion of removal of essential civil liberties
C) Claims of severe dehumanization
D) Claims of illegal behavior across the entire group


Protected groups under this rule:
a) Race
b) Ethnicity
c) Religion including those of an Atheistic or Agnostic belief
d) Sexual orientation
e) National origin
f) Gender (including transgendered, non-gendered, etc)
g) Disability
Claims of illegal behavior, such as rape, across entire groups is not only wrong but foolish.
You misunderstand, I made a point to point out that not all who identify as atheists actually commit acts such as rape or murder - I was refering to their philosophy or worldview - if an atheist believes that life is meaningless, or that he is no different than any other animal, then while in practice, he may not behave like this, in theory, there is no reason that he shouldn't if he thought it served his self interest.

So this wasn't condemnation of atheists as a human group, just condemnation of the atheistic worldview.
Roadmaster wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:18 am
Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 pm


I'm not an expert on Masonic principles, though that was to some extent what I had gleaned - that the purpose of government was to legislate moral principles more or less universal to all world religions, but not allow a single religion or church (e.x. the Roman Catholic church) to become the sole state religion.
Freedom of and from religion.
That seems to be the way God wants it as well.

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Christ does not say you will let me in or I will knock down the door.
God doesn't force us and the government does not either.
My point is that, in practice, freedom "from" religion doesn't really doesn't exist - at least in an absolute sense, given that state common law is arguably grounded in Judeo-Christian principles, or at least in principles more or less universal to world religions.

If a person wanted to be truly "free from religion", then they would have to jettison all laws and values whatsoever, including laws against rape, murder, other heinous acts - since from an atheistic worldview, at least in theory, there would be no reason not to do those things if they felt it served their interest (again, for emphasis, this isn't a condemnation of all atheists as individuals, but a condemnation of the atheistic worldview)-

In practice, though, if a person lives without any religious principles whatsoever, and commits crimes such as those mentioned, they are sent to prisons, die, and on the whole have no place in society.

So anyone who exists in society at all, American or otherwise, isn't really "free from religion" in an absolute sense.
Athiests do not teach this themselves. Also, religions have adopted such bans from governments themselves aka Hammurabi (sp?). Still, all that is moot as the rules of conduct for CPS is clear. Intended or not, atheists are a protected group, here, and ascribing such acts to that group is considered hate speech. Please refrain from doing this further.
There are atheists who do teach this, or at least a nihilistic worldview which, if taken literally, would permit this. I've studied postmodernism and a myriad of philosophies that might be described as "atheistic Darwinism", and I believe I understand the core of the worldview in question - some authors include Nietzsche, Stirner, Sade, and others if you're interested. In theory, yes, if atheistic postmodernists were consistent in their nihilistic worldviews, they would, or at least could do those things. (In practice, they generally don't, because they're hypocrites - though perhaps it's better that they don't regardless.)

There also does seem to be some overlap between "Satanism", or the "Satanic worldview", as well as some of the fringe neopagan cults or new religious movements -and what might be described as postmodern nihilism, or atheistic Darwinism.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:14 pm

<zederated>
So yes, I'll refrain from attacking atheists, or accusing atheists themselves of illegal behavior, but as far as I know, criticizing atheism or atheistic worldviews such as postmodernism isn't the same as attacking atheists as people, right?

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:22 pm

Well, being a bit of a James Bond fan, I didnt remember a reference to Jaws's dentist. So I googled "cooter jaws."

We got us a live 'un, maybe. Maybe I shouldn't have googled it, lol.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by durangopipe » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:22 pm
Well, being a bit of a James Bond fan, I didnt remember a reference to Jaws's dentist. So I googled "cooter jaws."

We got us a live 'un, maybe. Maybe I shouldn't have googled it, lol.
Curse you, hugo!
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:18 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:22 pm
Well, being a bit of a James Bond fan, I didnt remember a reference to Jaws's dentist. So I googled "cooter jaws."

We got us a live 'un, maybe. Maybe I shouldn't have googled it, lol.
Curse you, hugo!
Why oh why did I allow curiosity to kill this cat?
Because you realize education is life long.

I thought it was funny. I forgot my name was hugo drax and didnt get it and googled. Jaws was in Moonraker.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by tuttle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:39 am

Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood Theology Room Moderator that opinions/criticisms/opposing viewpoints, especially from the perspective of Christianity, are not only allowed but it's part and parcel of theology room discussion.

I'm none to pleased that this room has been moderated due to an opposing and/or misunderstood viewpoint. There were no attacks made here and there's been no hate speech.


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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:24 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:39 am
Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood Theology Room Moderator that opinions/criticisms/opposing viewpoints, especially from the perspective of Christianity, are not only allowed but it's part and parcel of theology room discussion.

I'm none to pleased that this room has been moderated due to an opposing and/or misunderstood viewpoint. There were no attacks made here and there's been no hate speech.


Image
Two questions:
  1. Can you restore the moderated portions?
  2. Is the label of "hate speech" simply a Godded-up way of saying "I don't like that."?
Image
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by tuttle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:37 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:24 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:39 am
Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood Theology Room Moderator that opinions/criticisms/opposing viewpoints, especially from the perspective of Christianity, are not only allowed but it's part and parcel of theology room discussion.

I'm none to pleased that this room has been moderated due to an opposing and/or misunderstood viewpoint. There were no attacks made here and there's been no hate speech.


Image
Two questions:
  1. Can you restore the moderated portions?
  2. Is the label of "hate speech" simply a Godded-up way of saying "I don't like that."?
Image
1. If I have that ability, I don't know where it is. It appears I cannot.
2. I don't know the full reasons of why hate speech was invoked, but it is evident from the content that it was an overstep.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Goose55 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:13 am

“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment, but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor.” ― Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:50 am

Goose55 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:13 am
“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment, but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor.” ― Thomas Jefferson
You know, I have a hard time accepting moral advice from that fellow.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:54 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:24 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:39 am
Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood Theology Room Moderator that opinions/criticisms/opposing viewpoints, especially from the perspective of Christianity, are not only allowed but it's part and parcel of theology room discussion.

I'm none to pleased that this room has been moderated due to an opposing and/or misunderstood viewpoint. There were no attacks made here and there's been no hate speech.


Image
Two questions:
  1. Can you restore the moderated portions?
  2. Is the label of "hate speech" simply a Godded-up way of saying "I don't like that."?
Image
1. If I have that ability, I don't know where it is. It appears I cannot.
2. I don't know the full reasons of why hate speech was invoked, but it is evident from the content that it was an overstep.
I believe he assumed I was claiming that all atheists were necessarily criminals or rapists, or claiming that all "gay people", or people who may have had homosexual feelings with the "sodomite or libertine lifestyle"

I was attempting to illustrate that - yes, in practice, not all atheists (or people who have identified as atheists) necessarily do this, but the atheistic/nihilistic worldview espoused by individuals such as Nietzsche or Sade is sympathetic to these things, in theory if nothing else.

As far as the subjects of "gay people, homosexuality, sodomites", etc - that's a messy subject I'd rather not go into anymore in this thread.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Jocose » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:38 am

The religious?
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:55 am

Jocose wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:38 am
The religious?
My argument is something along the lines of "religious in practice", even if not in theory. At least given that Common Law is grounded in principles rooted in Judeo-Christian theology, and if a person chose to ignore all laws which exist in practice (laws against murder, rape, theft, and whatnot), they would have no where to exist in society, other than perhaps in prisons, organized crime, terrorist cells, cults, etc.

So even though a government can't force people to be genuinely moral, religious, or to covert to a specific religion, it can at least force people to "not be entirely irreligious", up to a certain minimum level (and obviously not to a totalitarian degree, such as what we might see in Islamist theocracies, in which people might be stoned or severely punished for minor crimes or "sins", such as a woman not covering her face in public).

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:17 am

I would agree that the broad definition of terms allows for nearly any conclusion; however, such a practice rarely results in any real statements made.

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:33 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:17 am
I would agree that the broad definition of terms allows for nearly any conclusion; however, such a practice rarely results in any real statements made.
You have failed to demonstrate this in a quasi-insane manner making reference to your pet ideals. Please rephrase this in a rambling manner making reference to Beyoncé, the Democratic Party, and the genetic superiority of the Eastern Tennessee dirt farmer.

You need to put more effort into this, Tennessee.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Kerdy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:09 am

Hovannes wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:52 pm
The separation of church and state is supposed to guarantee freedom from the Government governing religion. Or at least that was what Mr Mc Crackle told us in the 8th Grade.
There is no Constitutional foundation for the phrase "Separation of Church and State." The only thing there is prevents the Government from interfering with a persons faith and establishing a national religion. Nothing states the two can't work together. The church, historically, has always been involved in the government.

To answer the OP's question, it used to be, but not so much these days.
Last edited by Kerdy on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Kerdy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 am

Roadmaster wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:09 pm
Atheists are not necessarily immoral thieving rapists. Some of them are the type of person who does the right thing even if nobody is watching.

Our government is set up on Masonic principles more than anything else. God is mentioned but not Christ. The closest mention to Christ is ‘In The Year Of Our Lord’ before the date.
Atheists are just like everyone else. They can be amazing people. It's the anti-theists who seem to want to create trouble. There is a big difference between the two.
Last edited by Kerdy on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by Kerdy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:37 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:24 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:39 am
Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood Theology Room Moderator that opinions/criticisms/opposing viewpoints, especially from the perspective of Christianity, are not only allowed but it's part and parcel of theology room discussion.

I'm none to pleased that this room has been moderated due to an opposing and/or misunderstood viewpoint. There were no attacks made here and there's been no hate speech.


Image
Two questions:
  1. Can you restore the moderated portions?
  2. Is the label of "hate speech" simply a Godded-up way of saying "I don't like that."?
Image
1. If I have that ability, I don't know where it is. It appears I cannot.
2. I don't know the full reasons of why hate speech was invoked, but it is evident from the content that it was an overstep.
I could give my 2 cents, but then I would get into trouble, so I won't.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Re: Is the United States a government for the religious?

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:10 pm

KERDY IN THE HOOUUUSSEEE

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