The Guarantee

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Fainn
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The Guarantee

Post by Fainn » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:01 am

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Del » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am

You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
=====================================================

Apostolic Christians, from the first generation to the present, do not believe in "once saved, always saved." We do not have a concept for "that sinner was never saved in the first place." We don't have a concept for salvation as something that we "possess." And we don't talk in the past tense, passive voice -- we don't say, "I've been saved."

We believe that salvation means "saved from sin." When we repent (and keep on repenting), we turn our faces toward Christ. He saves us by forgiving our sins, and welcoming us home as prodigal sons. As Paul says, no one can take us from Him.

But we are always free to reject that relationship. We can turn away from Him, turn back toward sin, and reject His forgiveness. We don't say that such a man was "never saved in the first place." His salvation was real, but he chose to discard it. (Consider a husband who abandons his family and runs off with his mistress. We don't say, "He was never married in the first place.")

We also say that salvation = relationship with Christ. We rest in Christ, and we avoid the sins that separate us from Christ. And when we stumble, we right ourselves toward Christ and beg His forgiveness. This is path of salvation... Jesus is the Way. By growing in relationship with Christ in this life, we are assured of continuing our relationship with Him in the next.

Evangelicals express this concept well when they speak of "walking with Christ." This is what we call salvation.
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"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Adam Z » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am

Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
We are saved by God, from God, for God.

We're saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We are saved from spiritual death and the judgement that we deserve for our unholiness. We are saved for God so that we might love him, serve him, and enjoy him forever, for his glory alone.

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Joshoowah » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:31 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
=====================================================

Apostolic Christians, from the first generation to the present, do not believe in "once saved, always saved." We do not have a concept for "that sinner was never saved in the first place." We don't have a concept for salvation as something that we "possess." And we don't talk in the past tense, passive voice -- we don't say, "I've been saved."

We believe that salvation means "saved from sin." When we repent (and keep on repenting), we turn our faces toward Christ. He saves us by forgiving our sins, and welcoming us home as prodigal sons. As Paul says, no one can take us from Him.

But we are always free to reject that relationship. We can turn away from Him, turn back toward sin, and reject His forgiveness. We don't say that such a man was "never saved in the first place." His salvation was real, but he chose to discard it. (Consider a husband who abandons his family and runs off with his mistress. We don't say, "He was never married in the first place.")

We also say that salvation = relationship with Christ. We rest in Christ, and we avoid the sins that separate us from Christ. And when we stumble, we right ourselves toward Christ and beg His forgiveness. This is path of salvation... Jesus is the Way. By growing in relationship with Christ in this life, we are assured of continuing our relationship with Him in the next.

Evangelicals express this concept well when they speak of "walking with Christ." This is what we call salvation.
I just want to point out that not all Evangelicals believe such a thing. They're like a box of chocolates, you never know which one you're gonna get.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Fainn » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:51 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
=====================================================

Apostolic Christians, from the first generation to the present, do not believe in "once saved, always saved." We do not have a concept for "that sinner was never saved in the first place." We don't have a concept for salvation as something that we "possess." And we don't talk in the past tense, passive voice -- we don't say, "I've been saved."

We believe that salvation means "saved from sin." When we repent (and keep on repenting), we turn our faces toward Christ. He saves us by forgiving our sins, and welcoming us home as prodigal sons. As Paul says, no one can take us from Him.

But we are always free to reject that relationship. We can turn away from Him, turn back toward sin, and reject His forgiveness. We don't say that such a man was "never saved in the first place." His salvation was real, but he chose to discard it. (Consider a husband who abandons his family and runs off with his mistress. We don't say, "He was never married in the first place.")

We also say that salvation = relationship with Christ. We rest in Christ, and we avoid the sins that separate us from Christ. And when we stumble, we right ourselves toward Christ and beg His forgiveness. This is path of salvation... Jesus is the Way. By growing in relationship with Christ in this life, we are assured of continuing our relationship with Him in the next.

Evangelicals express this concept well when they speak of "walking with Christ." This is what we call salvation.
I just want to point out that not all Evangelicals believe such a thing. They're like a box of chocolates, you never know which one you're gonna get.
Yeah, I know in some circles they believe salvation can be lost

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Del » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Fainn wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Joshoowah wrote:
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
=====================================================

Apostolic Christians, from the first generation to the present, do not believe in "once saved, always saved." We do not have a concept for "that sinner was never saved in the first place." We don't have a concept for salvation as something that we "possess." And we don't talk in the past tense, passive voice -- we don't say, "I've been saved."

We believe that salvation means "saved from sin." When we repent (and keep on repenting), we turn our faces toward Christ. He saves us by forgiving our sins, and welcoming us home as prodigal sons. As Paul says, no one can take us from Him.

But we are always free to reject that relationship. We can turn away from Him, turn back toward sin, and reject His forgiveness. We don't say that such a man was "never saved in the first place." His salvation was real, but he chose to discard it. (Consider a husband who abandons his family and runs off with his mistress. We don't say, "He was never married in the first place.")

We also say that salvation = relationship with Christ. We rest in Christ, and we avoid the sins that separate us from Christ. And when we stumble, we right ourselves toward Christ and beg His forgiveness. This is path of salvation... Jesus is the Way. By growing in relationship with Christ in this life, we are assured of continuing our relationship with Him in the next.

Evangelicals express this concept well when they speak of "walking with Christ." This is what we call salvation.
I just want to point out that not all Evangelicals believe such a thing. They're like a box of chocolates, you never know which one you're gonna get.
Yeah, I know in some circles they believe salvation can be lost

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that's what I mean by salvation = relationship with Christ.

Just as a friendship can be forged and then lost, or lost and then restored.

Basically.... if we want to live with Christ in heaven, we need to live with Christ now. Salvation isn't a "magical moment" of baptism, or saying the Sinner's prayer, or of Judgment at out death. Those events are important.... but salvation is the habit of living with Christ, every day. Like marriage is a habit of daily practice.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Goose55 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Must do your heart good to write these blogs, Fainn.
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Del » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm

Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
We are saved by God, from God, for God.

We're saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We are saved from spiritual death and the judgement that we deserve for our unholiness. We are saved for God so that we might love him, serve him, and enjoy him forever, for his glory alone.
I hear this sort of answer a lot. It's not "wrong," but it doesn't answer the question.

You speak about the purpose of salvation, and the means of salvation.... but what is salvation? What is the definition? Because I am not sure that Apostolic Christians and Evangelical Christians are talking about the same thing when we use that word.

I'm looking for a catechism definition.... Here is how I might teach it:

What is Sin?
Sin is that which separates us from God. Sins are the choices we make to turn away from God and choose our own path.

What is Repentance?
We repent when we turn away from sin, and turn our hearts back to God.

What is Salvation?
Salvation is being invited back into relationship with God. When we repent of our sins and turn back toward God, God forgives our sins and restores us to friendship with Him.

Can salvation be earned?
No. Salvation is a gift. God's friendship is a gift. No one can force God by any means to share His friendship, but God promises to share Himself generously with those who repent of their sins and live in Him.
=============================================

I could be wrong.... but when I hear Evangelical preachers talk about salvation, it seems to be set in the future. Salvation seems to be closely related to heaven and hell, after one has died. I think that misses the point.

What I read in the Scripture is that salvation is always about today.
- John the Baptist preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is coming soon!"
- Jesus preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is here!"

John set himself to washing people from their sins. Jesus set Himself to the work of forgiving sins. I believe Jesus wants us to keep the ideas of sin, repentance, and salvation closely tied together. These are first.

We should save talk about death, judgment, heaven, and hell toward the end of the chapter.... when we discuss the "last things" of salvation.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by John-Boy » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:13 pm

Good stuff, Fainn.
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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Sir Moose » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:28 am

Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
We are saved by God, from God, for God.

We're saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We are saved from spiritual death and the judgement that we deserve for our unholiness. We are saved for God so that we might love him, serve him, and enjoy him forever, for his glory alone.
I hear this sort of answer a lot. It's not "wrong," but it doesn't answer the question.

You speak about the purpose of salvation, and the means of salvation.... but what is salvation? What is the definition? Because I am not sure that Apostolic Christians and Evangelical Christians are talking about the same thing when we use that word.

I'm looking for a catechism definition.... Here is how I might teach it:

What is Sin?
Sin is that which separates us from God. Sins are the choices we make to turn away from God and choose our own path.

What is Repentance?
We repent when we turn away from sin, and turn our hearts back to God.

What is Salvation?
Salvation is being invited back into relationship with God. When we repent of our sins and turn back toward God, God forgives our sins and restores us to friendship with Him.

Can salvation be earned?
No. Salvation is a gift. God's friendship is a gift. No one can force God by any means to share His friendship, but God promises to share Himself generously with those who repent of their sins and live in Him.
=============================================

I could be wrong.... but when I hear Evangelical preachers talk about salvation, it seems to be set in the future. Salvation seems to be closely related to heaven and hell, after one has died. I think that misses the point.

What I read in the Scripture is that salvation is always about today.
- John the Baptist preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is coming soon!"
- Jesus preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is here!"

John set himself to washing people from their sins. Jesus set Himself to the work of forgiving sins. I believe Jesus wants us to keep the ideas of sin, repentance, and salvation closely tied together. These are first.

We should save talk about death, judgment, heaven, and hell toward the end of the chapter.... when we discuss the "last things" of salvation.
Most evangelicals that I am aware of see salvation in three tenses. We have been saved (declared righteous by God). We are being saved (becoming more Christ-like day by day). We will be saved (heaven, new body, eternity, etc.). Sometimes this is expressed as we have been freed from the penalty of sin, we are being saved from the power of sin, and we will be saved from the presence of sin.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Del » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:52 pm

Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:28 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
We are saved by God, from God, for God.

We're saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We are saved from spiritual death and the judgement that we deserve for our unholiness. We are saved for God so that we might love him, serve him, and enjoy him forever, for his glory alone.
I hear this sort of answer a lot. It's not "wrong," but it doesn't answer the question.

You speak about the purpose of salvation, and the means of salvation.... but what is salvation? What is the definition? Because I am not sure that Apostolic Christians and Evangelical Christians are talking about the same thing when we use that word.

I'm looking for a catechism definition.... Here is how I might teach it:

What is Sin?
Sin is that which separates us from God. Sins are the choices we make to turn away from God and choose our own path.

What is Repentance?
We repent when we turn away from sin, and turn our hearts back to God.

What is Salvation?
Salvation is being invited back into relationship with God. When we repent of our sins and turn back toward God, God forgives our sins and restores us to friendship with Him.

Can salvation be earned?
No. Salvation is a gift. God's friendship is a gift. No one can force God by any means to share His friendship, but God promises to share Himself generously with those who repent of their sins and live in Him.
=============================================

I could be wrong.... but when I hear Evangelical preachers talk about salvation, it seems to be set in the future. Salvation seems to be closely related to heaven and hell, after one has died. I think that misses the point.

What I read in the Scripture is that salvation is always about today.
- John the Baptist preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is coming soon!"
- Jesus preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is here!"

John set himself to washing people from their sins. Jesus set Himself to the work of forgiving sins. I believe Jesus wants us to keep the ideas of sin, repentance, and salvation closely tied together. These are first.

We should save talk about death, judgment, heaven, and hell toward the end of the chapter.... when we discuss the "last things" of salvation.
Most evangelicals that I am aware of see salvation in three tenses. We have been saved (declared righteous by God). We are being saved (becoming more Christ-like day by day). We will be saved (heaven, new body, eternity, etc.). Sometimes this is expressed as we have been freed from the penalty of sin, we are being saved from the power of sin, and we will be saved from the presence of sin.
I like the insight of have been saved/am being saved/will be saved.

To put a fine point on it, "declared righteous by God" is not salvation, but justification.

Justified and righteous are translations of the same Greek root word (dika-).
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: The Guarantee

Post by Fainn » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:53 pm

Sir Moose wrote:
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm
Adam Z wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am
Del wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 am
You have the right idea.... but it is difficult to express in the language of Bible fundamentalism.

It's not just you, buddy. I ask the same question whenever I hear something like this from Evangelicals.

This is the question: What do you all mean by salvation? What are we saved from?
We are saved by God, from God, for God.

We're saved by God through the atoning sacrifice of Christ. We are saved from spiritual death and the judgement that we deserve for our unholiness. We are saved for God so that we might love him, serve him, and enjoy him forever, for his glory alone.
I hear this sort of answer a lot. It's not "wrong," but it doesn't answer the question.

You speak about the purpose of salvation, and the means of salvation.... but what is salvation? What is the definition? Because I am not sure that Apostolic Christians and Evangelical Christians are talking about the same thing when we use that word.

I'm looking for a catechism definition.... Here is how I might teach it:

What is Sin?
Sin is that which separates us from God. Sins are the choices we make to turn away from God and choose our own path.

What is Repentance?
We repent when we turn away from sin, and turn our hearts back to God.

What is Salvation?
Salvation is being invited back into relationship with God. When we repent of our sins and turn back toward God, God forgives our sins and restores us to friendship with Him.

Can salvation be earned?
No. Salvation is a gift. God's friendship is a gift. No one can force God by any means to share His friendship, but God promises to share Himself generously with those who repent of their sins and live in Him.
=============================================

I could be wrong.... but when I hear Evangelical preachers talk about salvation, it seems to be set in the future. Salvation seems to be closely related to heaven and hell, after one has died. I think that misses the point.

What I read in the Scripture is that salvation is always about today.
- John the Baptist preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is coming soon!"
- Jesus preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is here!"

John set himself to washing people from their sins. Jesus set Himself to the work of forgiving sins. I believe Jesus wants us to keep the ideas of sin, repentance, and salvation closely tied together. These are first.

We should save talk about death, judgment, heaven, and hell toward the end of the chapter.... when we discuss the "last things" of salvation.
Most evangelicals that I am aware of see salvation in three tenses. We have been saved (declared righteous by God). We are being saved (becoming more Christ-like day by day). We will be saved (heaven, new body, eternity, etc.). Sometimes this is expressed as we have been freed from the penalty of sin, we are being saved from the power of sin, and we will be saved from the presence of sin.
What he said.

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