Notre Dame Fire

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TNLawPiper
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:11 am

Jester wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:59 am
rgcurrey wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
There has to be an outcry if they don't restore it in a historically accurate way, but then again I agree with Hovannes and am very skeptical.
Just read this on CNN:
On Wednesday, France's Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said France would launch an international architecture competition to reconstruct the spire, saying that the contest "will be organised in due course."

A committee will be set up to oversee the project and will decide whether the spire should be reconstructed or "adapted to modernity," he said.
"adapted to modernity"

gross.
Image
St. Michael's in Scotland.
That crown spire is 55 years old and aluminum because the tower could not support more stone.

They’ll still have to wait and see what shape the surrounding walls are in before the room or spire can be reconstructed. President Macron’s five-year timeline is not feasible.

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tuttle
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:22 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:03 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
My understanding is the government owns Notre-Dame de Paris, but the Catholic Church is the beneficiary with exclusive right of use in perpetuity. The archdiocese pays expenses and does not receive subsidies from the government.
Thanks!
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Hovannes
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:25 pm

Hmmm....what are the chances of that the spire being replaced with a more inclusive minaret, as a nod to the Jesuits?
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Hovannes
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:27 pm

Image
That must be a dandy lightening rod!
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by wosbald » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:51 pm

+JMJ+
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am
Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Hear.
Macron: "We will rebuild."

French Parliament: "Hold that thought. We must wait for the Self-Appointed Guardians of Orthodoxy, Orthopraxy and Orthotecture — the Concerned Christians of America (CCoA) — to weigh in."

Macron: "This just in." <pauses, reads, sighs> "America has spoken; the cause is ended. Shelve the plans for the Googie spire, boys."

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:59 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:51 pm
+JMJ+
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am
Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Hear.
Macron: "We will rebuild."

French Parliament: "Hold that thought. We must wait for the Self-Appointed Guardians of Orthodoxy, Orthopraxy and Orthotecture — the Concerned Christians of America (CCoA) — to weigh in."

Macron: "This just in." <pauses, reads, sighs> "America has spoken; the cause is ended. Shelve the plans for the Googie spire, boys."
Yeah, Charity is really, really hard.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by wosbald » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:29 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:59 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:51 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am
Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Hear.
Macron: "We will rebuild."

French Parliament: "Hold that thought. We must wait for the Self-Appointed Guardians of Orthodoxy, Orthopraxy and Orthotecture — the Concerned Christians of America (CCoA) — to weigh in."

Macron: "This just in." <pauses, reads, sighs> "America has spoken; the cause is ended. Shelve the plans for the Googie spire, boys."
Yeah, Charity is really, really hard.
Image

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Hovannes
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:58 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:29 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:59 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:51 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am
Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Hear.
Macron: "We will rebuild."

French Parliament: "Hold that thought. We must wait for the Self-Appointed Guardians of Orthodoxy, Orthopraxy and Orthotecture — the Concerned Christians of America (CCoA) — to weigh in."

Macron: "This just in." <pauses, reads, sighs> "America has spoken; the cause is ended. Shelve the plans for the Googie spire, boys."
Yeah, Charity is really, really hard.
Image
FRANCE So that's where all the Howard Johnsons went!Image
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by wosbald » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:01 pm

+JMJ+
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:58 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:59 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:51 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am
Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Hear.
Macron: "We will rebuild."

French Parliament: "Hold that thought. We must wait for the Self-Appointed Guardians of Orthodoxy, Orthopraxy and Orthotecture — the Concerned Christians of America (CCoA) — to weigh in."

Macron: "This just in." <pauses, reads, sighs> "America has spoken; the cause is ended. Shelve the plans for the Googie spire, boys."
Yeah, Charity is really, really hard.
Image
FRANCE So that's where all the Howard Johnsons went!Image
Good eye for Googie.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Hovannes
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm

European architects are very good at reconstructions
Cologne Cathedral, 1945---Image
Cologne Cathedral after restoration---ImageImage
compare with
Our Lady of Angels, pre-Roger MahoneyImage
Our Lady of Angels post Mahoney Image

See my concern?
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:48 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm
European architects are very good at reconstructions
Cologne Cathedral, 1945---Image
Cologne Cathedral after restoration---ImageImage
compare with
Our Lady of Angels, pre-Roger MahoneyImage
Our Lady of Angels post Mahoney Image

See my concern?
No. They're not Americans, thank heaven. They will come up with their own architectural heresy. Good news is they have to think about tourist revenues.

Or they might build it right. Point is, I'm glad for the huge mercies we've been shown.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Hovannes
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:34 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:48 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm
European architects are very good at reconstructions
Cologne Cathedral, 1945---Image
Cologne Cathedral after restoration---ImageImage
compare with
Our Lady of Angels, pre-Roger MahoneyImage
Our Lady of Angels post Mahoney Image

See my concern?
No. They're not Americans, thank heaven. They will come up with their own architectural heresy. Good news is they have to think about tourist revenues.

Or they might build it right. Point is, I'm glad for the huge mercies we've been shown.
I agree.
Notre Dame is the repository of 800 years of Western European History as well as the Faith.
Sorry if I came across as over protective.
You know how it is.
That she still stands and that much of her inventory has been spared is indeed miraculous!
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:12 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:34 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:48 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm
European architects are very good at reconstructions
Cologne Cathedral, 1945---Image
Cologne Cathedral after restoration---ImageImage
compare with
Our Lady of Angels, pre-Roger MahoneyImage
Our Lady of Angels post Mahoney Image

See my concern?
No. They're not Americans, thank heaven. They will come up with their own architectural heresy. Good news is they have to think about tourist revenues.

Or they might build it right. Point is, I'm glad for the huge mercies we've been shown.
I agree.
Notre Dame is the repository of 800 years of Western European History as well as the Faith.
Sorry if I came across as over protective.
You know how it is.
That she still stands and that much of her inventory has been spared is indeed miraculous!
I'm taken far too seriously around here, Hov. Most days, I'm just glad to be alive.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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tuttle
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:24 am

This Reuters report has some good info: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1RU137

The 12 man reconstruction crew, which was the only crew on site that day, is mentioned as the best of the best, even going beyond architects’ demands as far as safety is concerned. No welding machines or blowtorches on the site. Crew kept to their rigorous procedures including turning off all electricity. Last workers left at 5:50pm, a half hour before the first alarm went off.

Time-lapse photos seem to indicate smoke first appearing from the spire's base. Police say if not arson, then electrical source is certainly to blame.

According to the NY Times the first alarm goes off at 6:20 and the attic was checked, nothing to be found. The second alarm goes off 6:43 and they found fire there. They also report that there was no electrical wiring in the attic:
“There had been a systematic refusal to install anything electrical” within “the forest” because of the risk, said Pierre Housieaux, president of the Paris Historical Association. “Everyone knew that the attic was the most fragile part.”
So the crew turned off all electricity, absent at least a half hour before any alarms ring, and no electrical wiring present in the attic, where the fire started. If everyone is telling the truth, this is going to be a tough one to figure out.
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